But Cardinal Fang, the school is not adjudicating the crime of drug possession, they are conducting a hearing on whether the student violated the honor code by possessing drugs. Law aside, the student violated the school policy and that’s what the hearing will be about. Not did the student commit a crime, but did the student violate a university policy. It might also BE a crime (doesn’t have to be, such as riding a bike in a restricted area or playing music too loud), but the school doesn’t care, the school just wants the student off campus. The expulsion will be for a violation of the school code.
If the honor code violation is that the student was arrested and convicted of a crime, that’s another reason for expulsion. In that case the code would say 'any student convicted of a crime (or a list of crimes) will be expelled. Simple. Let someone else do the hard part, the convicting. That hearing will be very short - was student convicted of a crime? Done. Expelled.
They’re not adjudicating the criminal charge of sexual assault, either. They’re adjudicating the campus code violation of sexual assault. What is your point?
dstark quoted: My abuser confessed to an administrator that he raped me, and he got suspended from school.
Uh, do we think the man may have ‘confessed’ to having sex with her, which she called ‘rape’? When asked, he said they did have sex (true, he never denied it), and she categorizes it as rape and he asked for a hearing where the finders of fact said he wasn’t guilty of harassment or sexual misconduct. He was suspended from school pending the hearing. She is the only one classifying it as a rape. He was found not guilty.
Since you know this, the obvious question to ask is why in the world are you so openly cavalier with your language?
College tribunals and rape in the same sentence is a sham because colleges, as you state, do not charge rape, determine if rape occurred, or adjudicate rape. Therefore, Emma should not even being saying rapist or being encouraged to say rape because she never charged that guy with rape.
People have figured out that advocates are purposely confusing the language and essentially obfuscating about rape, sexual assault, sexual misconduct, and behavioral codes and pretending when they talk it is all the same thing. Many people do not trust that, as that is the stuff of politicians.
Really a lot of this is coming down to deceptive use of language.
No not bias, mostly lack of interest - there’s nothing to discuss, pretty clear cut case. The most interesting perspective is that it would never have been tried save the broken door and security tapes but it was tried and they were found guilty. I’ve said multiple times, courts are equipped to try and convict rapes and punish rapists.
Several posters have pointed out Paul has waited till now to speak out. If he were my son,(innocent or guilty) we would have been consulting lawyers during the University proceedings (as the family did) and (if I believed him innocent) afterwards to exonerate his name. I doubt Emma would have been carrying the mattress without public objection from my family.
Several posters have also pointed out this thread sometimes reveals more about the posters than anything else and I agree. Momofthreeboys: If I recall correctly, in another thread you posted about a high school friend of your son, falsely accused of sexual misconduct or rape and described it as a harrowing experience. When I read your posts, I wonder if that is why there is such a concern with men being disadvantaged in rape cases? I begin to wonder if you identify Emma with that high school girl?
Obviously you don’t have to answer, and maybe this is too personal, but I am desperately trying to understand your point of view here.
No, but it absolutely made me aware what can happen to young people when accusations occur and the stigma of being falsely accused and the utter revulsion that occurs in society when someone uses the word “rape” even though it wasn’t my son accused, it was a good friend but he was there that night and caught up in the drama and the aftermath. It also made me more aware of Title IX even though I’d already had two older boys go to and graduate from college and it made me aware of the differences between charging someone in the criminal system and using colleges to adjudicate what are seemingly crimes. It made me aware of how many people toss the word rape around BECAUSE of the impact, even if it’s not rape. It made me aware of how very careful for the most part police and the justice system are regarding the presumption of innocence and due process and also aware that there are flaws… And how much I care about fairness. It made me critically aware of the language people choose and I do feel bad that in the heat of it I called Emma vicious…I really don’t think she was vicious, vindictive would have been a much better choice of word so I’m also guilty of not being precise also in saying what I mean. And clearly I’m not fond of re-trying people in the court of public opinion via the media.
On a lighter note, I think I said it before but it will be interesting to see if Paul does anything in civil court after he’s received in diploma or if he just goes back home. He could potentially be very justified in filing some sort of suit other against the college for allowing her to do the mattress stunt or against the group that painted his name and called him a rapist on the bathroom wall or potentially Emma. If you google his name all you get are dozens of pages of Emma stories, not very difficult to make the connection. At this point in time it matters not if he might have done something illegal, the presumption is that he’s innocent of what he was charged with by the college and that was not rape, so I have to agree with others on that point.
Alh: If we don’t want to find victims more or less believable based on their reactions to the assualt, seems it is similarly not fair to use the action or inaction of the accused to clear his name against him. His lawyer may have advised him to ignore it. He may have thought that if he ignored it, it would go away. He certainly didn’t know Emma would be invited to the SOTU. He did ask to finish his degree abroad, which was rejected by Columbia. He also was in a tough spot - many would have said he “doth protect too much” if he tried to shut down the project and would have been seen as standing in the way of free speech. Or perhaps that is not what you are saying?
To me, it crosses into harassment when Emma states (reportedly that it is), that she won’t put her mattress down until her rapist is gone from campus. That sounds like her real goal is to drive him away.
The positive news out of all of this is more focus on this issue and perhaps better ways to combat it. Maybe we need a mattress girl to get the message out and Nungesser, or someone similar, has to be the poster boy. Still think there has to be a point where the verdict is accepted and the cleared accused can get on with his life without a cloud, especially if he is innocent. As CF said, however, there is no easy way to fair.
As to the UNC case (and accuser#2 here), I would imagine it is incredibly difficult for a university to determine the dynamics within a long-term relationship and whether it ever crossed the line into sexual assault. Not sure they can or are willing to deal with “emotional abuse”. She claims he confessed to rape, but that seems doubtful as the case went 5-0 to clear him (except of verbal harassment). If two people stated at the hearing that he confessed to rape, seems at least one of those hearing the case would find him guilty. But of course, without the details, it is hard to know.
I don’t understand why many want to trust the university system to determine these issues. Vanderbilt University did not find the 4 football players guilty of the rape but the criminal justice system did find 2 guilty with the other 2 awaiting trial.
The he said/she said cases are difficult to solve as who do you believe without physical evidence. How do we know what they consider normal between them. This isn’t a case of what sexual activities that we would give consent.
Before numerous posters start asking me how what the female student said is normal. Remember we exist in a world where numerous college students of both sexes film their group sexual activities to win money from online porn sites. (Before you ask, the things we get in our junk email are horrible but there is a need to check it for those needed emails sent to the junk folder). Also, many people are eagerly awaiting the movie “Shades of Gray”, a real love story between two loving and caring people. Oh wait movie theaters are having to tell people not to bring their props to the movie theater.
mom2and: I apologize if my post read as finding Paul less believable because he hasn’t spoken out. I agree he is in a tough spot and may have been following legal advice and that it would have been difficult to anticipate the amount of coverage Emma would receive.
My point was to try and put myself in the shoes of a parent whose child has been accused of rape. My priority will be to protect that child. I am trying to see this from all points of view. It doesn’t seem to me we are dealing with a very few, born that way, sociopathic monsters on campus. (I keep comparing with men who rape in war time) It seems to me we are dealing with young men who had potential to be much better people and for some reason were corrupted into rapists. I am arguing we all take the blame for allowing this to happen. We have done a huge disservice to these young men.
However, a much greater disservice has been done to the women they have raped. I think that needs to be the greater focus. It is almost impossible to maintain that focus in any of these threads. We continually revert to focus on men who have been falsely accused, or perhaps falsely accused. Most, though not all, of us are in agreement that very few rape charges are false. However, some websites claim 40 to 50% of claims are false. If that is your belief, the discussion becomes very different. If someone believes this claim, I imagine that person’s view of women to be very different than mine.
If I am Emma, and someone rapes me and isn’t found guilty and removed from campus - I will want to do what I can to make them leave. If I am Emma’s parent, I am doing whatever I can to remove that student from campus. I don’t want her at the same college with her rapist. I don’t think she should have to leave because she was raped.
What usually happens in these cases, imho, is that the accuser isn’t able to make a case, and then the accuser is bullied, slut-shamed, and sometimes threatened with physical violence. I can look up some links if you want, or you can just do a quick google yourself. What makes this case extremely interesting, to me, is that Columbia actually has a campus culture which supports Emma instead of threatening her for speaking out. ymmv
I have been following the UNC stories for a long time. I believe you will be shocked if you do much digging. I am interested in the discussion of UNC following the release of Hunting Ground.
In my opinion perhaps using the word “abused” would be much easier for people to grasp than using the word rape when rape is not the charge. Rape has a very specific connotation in our society and implies certain actions. It is not a large jump for some people to conclude that Emma was not raped. I’ve even said that Emma may very well be a victim but if she is then she is a potentially a victim of abuse. But I think advocates want to use the word “rape” because it is associated in the minds of the public with something violent and heinous… the man or woman on the street can “grasp” the concept and it paints a picture that advocates want to paint. It is more difficult to grasp the concept of the word “abuse.” However I would say that someone could be abused but not raped and someone could be raped AND abused. Some could be abused and walk away and wipe their hands of the person and others continue in the relationship with on-going abuse and are well-served with intervention, counseling and other services. I think colleges can handle the intervention and counseling. Unfortunately most states only use the word abuse with regard to children and use the word “assault” with adults and again the word “assault” paints a picture in most people’s heads that implies physical force and is not the picture of someone who willingly engages in sex with someone but at some point feels the partner is doing something wrong. The criminal system presumes you’ll leave, work-it-out, get a restraining order or if it escalates press charges. I’m guessing that the administrators in colleges and universities who are untrained in criminal law struggle with the words and images in their own heads and how that relates to the concept of misconduct.
I don’t know why people are confused about the word “rape.” We speak English here. We know what the word “rape” means. When someone has intercourse with someone else without their consent, that’s rape. That’s the definition of the word “rape.” If a college finds a student guilty of having intercourse with another student without their consent, then they have found that student guilty of rape. In some jurisdictions, the legal crime of having intercourse without consent is called “sexual assault,” and in other jurisdictions it’s called “rape,” but we’re not in a court of law here so we can use the common name.
However, it doesn’t become “rape” when the person is convicted in a court of law. Rape is rape when the rapist rapes. The jury pronouncing him guilty doesn’t make him a rapist; raping makes him a rapist.
Being falsely accused of rape is a terrible thing. Actually being raped is a worse thing.
@momofthreeboys, are you say that IF Sulkowicz’s story is true, that her friend repeatedly penetrated her anally without her consent while she was screaming, that wouldn’t be a rape?
Two of the five William Paterson students who were arrested for a rape in the dorm and not indicted have filed a tort notice against the college. (The first step in filing civil litigation). The college administrator defamed them by calling them criminals and expelled them without proof. Another reason why colleges need to leave these matters to the court system.
I couldn’t post the link because of a subscription requirement.
I’m asking you about the definition of a word, @momofthreeboys. If Person A is in a sexual encounter with Person B that started consensually, and then Person A, without Person B’s consent and with force, repeatedly anally penetrates Person B while Person B is screaming, is that a rape? If not, what would you call it?
First, there is a ton of loose language that is used in this context – rape, sexual assault, sexual misconduct, abuse, emotional/psychological violence, intimate partner violence, etc. That loose language obviously helps the agenda of OCR and the campus advocates because it increases the size of the problem and it garners attention and resources because all of that other stuff gets swept under the banner of “RAPE!!!” But that loose talk is a serious impediment to reasonable discussion about the issue.
The Columbia guy is a perfect example. He’s talked about as a “serial rapist” based on the fact that he had three sexual complaints filed against him. One complaint was for unwanted attempted kissing. The whole “one in five campus rape epidemic” is another perfect example. You only can get to that ridiculous statistic if you lump all these things together, very little of which is actually rape.
Second, with rape the issue is never penetration. It is always consent. The Columbia guy’s girlfriend claims “rape” even though at the time she admits that she didn’t think it was non-consensual. She also admits that the “non-consensual” sex happened over and over and over again. So that’s not rape either. It may have been abuse or some other variant of bad behavior. But absolutely not rape.
Emma’s allegations could possibly be rape, although I personally don’t believe her at all. But there’s nothing so far to prove that it was. So that’s not rape either. 0 for 3.
Also, notice that Adam’s claim is that the Columbia guy “sexually assaulted” him. But the headlines are that yet another RAPE!!! allegation has been made. Same bogus loose talk.
