Sure, but destroying cities is also a crime. I really have no problem with her carrying her mattress except that I think it’s really dumb attention-grabbing move probably conjured up for PR purposes and and calling it art is ridiculous. But, off-campus I don’t really care. On campus is different, though.
Well according to this website @mom2and all states have laws or policies against bullying:
http://www.stopbullying.gov/laws/
And we all know there are laws against harassment. So any policy Columbia has is really not all that different from the outside world.
I disagree with that. In fact, I think it’s clearly untrue. She appears to be achieving the purpose of her project, which is to publicize issues of campus safety and rape, and to get people to think about them and talk about them. If you look at reactions to her work in the art world, people are not reacting to the piece as having the goal of getting him to leave. For example, the art critic at the NYTimes wrote:
574
Pizzagirl and I and some other sorority women had several pages of posts about National’s ban on sororities attending bid weekend at UVA. There was a bit of discussion about status and power of fraternities. I always say fraternities have power and Pizzagirl always questions the existence of “fraternity power.” Although I’m not sure exactly what I wrote there, sometimes I write about women historically associating themselves with patriarchal power structures for their own self-preservation. Since we have done the greek side trek already there, I will restrain myself here.
It seems to me we may have reached the point of needing footnotes or something for all these threads.
It’s been a while since I’ve been in college and my kids aren’t there quite yet so I may be off base here, but could one reason why women continue to subject themselves to frat party culture be that there aren’t many, or any, other options of parties with alcohol? Colleges don’t throw parties with alcohol because most undergrads can’t legally drink. I have heard about some schools that are much more tolerant of alcohol and my understanding is that in those schools there’s less binge drinking and drinking and driving because kids don’t need to get trashed before attending a dry party or head off campus. Wondering whether if more schools were permissive with alcohol on campus whether that would decrease fraternity life without any formal ban or discouragement or at least provide women with more of a choice for socializing.
379 [quote] CF - There's no need for a special rule. There already are rules. I'm just saying she shouldn't get special treatment or exemption from them.
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Basically the rules haven’t worked for women. Women are saying we have been raped on campus and didn’t get justice from the college. We have gone to the police and didn’t get justice. I agree with Cardinal Fang there may be no "fair"possible in a lot of this, but the rules just aren’t working for women. Up to this point in time, the rules seem to have been working just fine for men.
390 [quote] The "power is something you take" slogan can be used to justify a lot of bad behavior. I don't agree with an ends always justifies the means mentality. We have a moral and legal framework that has served us very well, and activism needs to be in that framework. Historically, without an underlying morality or a concept of justice, then doing something simply because you have the power to do so soon turns into an open season on women. With that mindset, the only reason women aren't assaulted is because their fathers / husbands view rape as a violation of their property rights. It's a medieval viewpoint that I think is crazy.
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It seems to me the whole western legal system is based on the rights of men. It is about male property rights, including the right to women’s bodies. We are still making laws today about what women are allowed to do with their own bodies. There is obviously some progress but we aren’t where we need to be and women are still struggling to acquire traditionally male rights. Personally, I think we need to question whether some of those rights are even worth having. I don’t know how we change from a patriarchal system, but that would seem worthwhile. Joining the patriarchy and playing that game doesn’t really change society very much. imho. ymmv.
I agree women have traditionally been protected by an association with strong males. If a “bad” man knows a woman has a scary male protector, he is more likely to leave her along. How can women make themselves scary enough they are left alone? This is a different discussion than how women protect themselves by staying out of dark alleys and watching their drinks. They need to take some of that power for themselves that has traditionally belonged to men. Is this possible? I have no clue. A woman carrying a mattress sees to be intimidating to lots of folks.
The photo in this article shows that she says she will stop the project if her rapist is expelled or chooses to leave. Sorry, I referenced the wrong article. Yes, she also brought attention to this issue, which is a good thing. But she did also want to get him to leave and that may cross the harassment line. Photo is about half-way down article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/22/nyregion/accusers-and-the-accused-crossing-paths-at-columbia.html
alh - Thanks for taking the time to read through my ramblings. You make great points. Please know that I am reading your responses carefully.
There’s lots of great stuff in the thousands of posts in this thread and in the other. Needs its own FAQ.
Women have not been well treated in the legal system, and neither have people of color or the poor. The protections against presumption of guilt are to protect those that are not wealthy and powerful and those that are innocent. Our legal system has certainly evolved so that women are not men’s property and many more women are single and successful (much more work to do but certainly progress has been made). I do support the women that are victims, but I can’t get beyond the need for evidence and proof, even when I want to believe them.
I agree that women need to join together to bring focus to this issue. The mattress does not intimidate anyone but it may harass a kid that was found not guilty. Some have at least some concern with that. He may well be guilty, but the proof was not there.
I kind of do think it undermines her message that she is carrying the weight for all victims of sexual assault and rape when she ties the ending of the project to one specific person leaving campus. She didn’t say she would put down the mattress when Columbia’s procedures were changed in a certain way, or tie it to passage of certain legislation that would benefit all people.
She will put it down when Nungesser leaves. That is the aim of her project. I think other people concerned with the issues and the media perhaps put greater meaning to it?
I found this interview with her from September 2014 (3 days after she started the project) and thought some of the direct quotes from Emma were interesting:
http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/09/columbia-emma-sulkowicz-mattress-rape-performance-interview.html
"The reporter response has been really aggressive and not what I expected. It is a sensitive subject, and I can’t be accosted in the middle of campus to talk about it. One guy, while I was carrying the mattress, he just opened up my backpack and threw his business card in, which was a real violation of my space and made me really upset and triggered a lot of memories of being raped. "
“In the news, people have been calling my piece a protest, and just ignoring the fact it is not really a protest but a performance-art piece. Yes, I would like for my rapist to get kicked out of school, but I realize that the university is so stubborn that it may never happen and I may be carrying this mattress for a while.”
“‘You were also hoping to file a complaint with the police regarding how you were treated. What happened with that?’
I was contacted by an investigator who was really, really annoying to work with. He would call me randomly, and make me repeat everything that happened. He kept telling me I had to come into the station, and obviously I don’t want to deal with the police any more right now. It’s so disorganized, and it’s really upsetting to work with them at all.”
Takeaways:
She seems to have gotten a lot more comfortable with the media. If you don’t want to talk to reporters, don’t talk to reporters. She has talked to many now. Most media outlets (left and right) call it a protest at this point, and I don’t think she is wasting energy correcting them anymore. I think she is fine with the activism and the publicity as long as her narrative is not challenged in any way.
Her reaction to the police is perhaps naive? I know she is only 20, but what does she expect? An investigator has many cases not just one. S/he may call at odd hours because that’s when he has time to call—would you rather the officer not call at all? Perhaps he is asking you to repeat your story because he is checking the facts and also making sure you are consistent and haven’t left anything out. Maybe you have to come into the station because that’s where cops work. (Does she expect her podiatrist to cut off her bunion in her dorm room too?)
Also, because my last post got long, I found this concerning a national day of action mattress carry:
http://columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2014/10/26/call-carry-weight-together
Piece was written by Emma, here are some quotes:
"I realize that many of you who want to participate will feel unable to carry a mattress on this day. I want to emphasize that I don’t think that this diminishes your commitment, for you can still help others who have decided to carry mattresses. After all, mattresses are heavy and unwieldy. We can only get through this day if we collaborate and help each other carry this weight.
However, I understand that many of you are considering carrying a pillow on this day of action. I hope that very few of you end up carrying pillows. Pillows are “light,” “fluffy,” and may detract from our message. The propagation of images of people carrying pillows could undercut our understanding of the gravity of sexual assault, and imbue what should be seen as a serious crime with “cute” and “celebratory” connotations. If we flood the Internet with images and the inevitable “selfies” that look like they came from a slumber party, we will fail to communicate what I think we all believe: Sexual assault is neither a “light” nor “fluffy” matter, and we cannot treat it as if it were.
My biggest dream for this day of action is that hundreds, even thousands, of people participate. However, it would upset me if so many people carried pillows that there were no hands left to help those who have decided to carry mattresses. My mattress only begins to feel light when there are five pairs of hands on it. Pillows are singular, individual, and keep us from literally carrying the weight together."
No comment.
Why “no comment” @bearpanther? I would be interested in your thoughts.
588 mom2and: [quote] Women have not been well treated in the legal system, and neither have people of color or the poor. The protections against presumption of guilt are to protect those that are not wealthy and powerful and those that are innocent. Our legal system has certainly evolved so that women are not men's property and many more women are single and successful (much more work to do but certainly progress has been made). I do support the women that are victims, but I can't get beyond the need for evidence and proof, even when I want to believe them.
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436 al2simon: [quote] 2) Affluent men tend not to be rapists, and affluent women tend to hang around them - That's an interesting one. If you look at literally every other crime statistic, college educated men don't really commit crimes like robbery, homicide, physical violence, etc. in anywhere near the proportions of poor men. People are arguing that rape is the one exception. Because of this variable in your analysis, what you're actually saying is that college men are less likely to be rapists, so we'll hold them to a higher standard. The logic seems wrong to me. I think an honest reading supports northwesty's argument.
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Project Innocence. Poor men are more likely to be charged and convicted with crimes I don’t know they are more likely to be criminals than rich men. Where I am from in the south there is a horrific tradition of black men punished for rapes they didn’t commit. Privileged middle class males may be getting away with rape. That is what campus culture looks like to me.
And this is a point that the bubble of CC often misses. There are many, many females who love those parties, who go there voluntarily, and who partake in things people think are off the wall and that more than a few find abusive. These females then wake up the next day, go to class, and all is well with them, and no accusations are filed on or by anyone. And then they happily do it again the next weekend.
The current advocates really only speak for only one set of women, but certainly not all or even a majority. They can speak out, but that does not change the fact that females are still flocking to these parties in massive numbers regardless of the current publicity of Emma etc., and they are not successful in creating comparably fun parties of their own.
So, the inevitable fact is even if all the targeted parties were boycotted by females who do not like them and are against what happens there, there will be zero difference in the number of females attending simply because for each female who is an advocate there is another one who could care less because she enjoys herself at those parties.
I understand your sentiment of women coming together, but I am sure you also know that actually only means women who think and believe, as you do. However, there are many women who do not, and that is the elephant in the room that advocates will have to confront when they see the activities and parties raging on irrespective of policies that are in place. The party will just be moved elsewhere and more than enough females will follow.
@alh Here’s why I believe in what I wrote:
Since I was born, I’ve seen lots of societal progress, albeit not complete. Progress for women, for African-Americans. We’ve seen more progress in obtaining marriage rights for homosexuals in the last decades than in the prior 10,000 years of recorded history.
But the progress wasn’t made by changing our key principles of equality and of fairness as found in our Constitution. It was made by forcing us to live up to those values. Nothing more; just that simple. Shaming us into being who we say we are. People responded, and I bet they will continue to respond.
The rules are really very simple. All the world’s great religions and philosophies, from Confucianism to Christianity, have realized this. The Christian formulation is the Golden rule, “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” Seven words. The challenge is living up to them.
I don’t believe we really need special rules or new ones. We just need to live up to the ones we have. And if in this case it means Emma S. might have gone a bit too far, then fine. She needs to live up to these principles as well. Moral clarity and consistency are what will win the day, and compromising on those is a mistake.
We agree on the golden rule. whew.
While I think it is possible to shame people into doing right, I think it is better to teach them it is in their own best interest. I don’t think punishment or shaming works that great in the long run.
History is just a story. A friend gave me this book which is a not necessarily main-stream narrative of the civil rights movement. There is seizing of power. I am just quoting from wikipedia because the author there sums up my thoughts pretty well.
- Tyson challenges the popular memory of the movement as a nonviolent call on America’s conscience led by Martin Luther King. He described a movement that was local as well as national, violent as well as nonviolent, and more complicated than suggested by some of the accounts of the civil rights years.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Done_Sign_My_Name
Dstark: you really made me think with that Dallas allusion! Thank you.
ETA: and I’m done posting today 
awcntb I as thinking that very same thing this afternoon but was too busy with meetings to post. I do believe we’re talking about a small segment of women. We know what women are at risk and I posted about that on the UVa thread. There are plenty of sorority women that join sororities exactly for the kinds of activities that those organizations and fraternities deliver and enjoy themselves immensely. All sororities and all fraternities are not at all identical. I’m sure there are individual sororities across the country that do not subscribe to the idea that every party is a wild time. As far as advocates, they two are a sub-group and represent another small segment of the campus.
Alh, that’s great.
Your posts make me think too. 
That Timothy Tyson story sounds very interesting.
@HarvestMoon1, my immediate thoughts on Emma’s article were perhaps a bit jumbled. I’ll admit to thinking if I didn’t know she wrote it, I might have thought it was from The Onion (“Metal coil spring mattresses are fine, but not memory foam as they are not heavy enough. Traditional handmade quilts are of sufficient weight, but please leave the goose down duvets at home. No pillows of any kind allowed as they are too soft and squishy to make our point.”)
I suppose it is her project, so if she wants to dictate how people participate, she certainly can. But she is carrying a mattress, for heaven’s sake, and telling people she will be upset if they bring pillows because it will look like a slumber party and take away from the gravitas of the issue?
Ah, college. I remember it well.
Remember, this is her senior thesis. It’s an art project. If the aim of the project is to get Nungesser to leave, then the project is a failure.
What do we suppose her art professor is going to say at the end of the year? "Well, Emma, your piece has been favorably reviewed by the New York Times and Artforum. Several national art critics have named it a top art show of the year. A US Senator invited you to the State of the Union address. But your alleged attacker is still on campus, so it’s a failure. I’m giving you an F. "?
Or, do we think the professor is going to say, “Emma, your piece is a success beyond my wildest dreams. I’m honored to be your thesis supervisor. I have no hesitation in giving you an A+, and in addition I’m delighted to recommend your thesis as the top thesis of the year at Columbia.”?
I think we must concede that this art piece is a huge success, not a failure.