Emory, NYU, UM - Philosophy/Poli Sci

College Search & Selection
21

<p>“IF I do, I would actually lean towards being in NYC.”</p>

<p>That’s the point some were making. The primary reason (by far) for attending NYU is NYC. People who attend most other top universities will generally refer to a qualities about their university, not the city around it. Students at Dartmouth may talk about the intimate atmoshpere or the D plan. Students at Chicago or Columbia may list the core or the uncompromising academic intensity. Brown students would likely point to the absense of any core of any sort. Penn students may describe interdisciplinary programs and Wharton as the school’s selling points. Duke students may list school spirit and the Basketball tradition a hook. </p>

<p>If NYC is a major selling point for you, NYU may be your best bet.</p>

22

<p>The OP gave contradicting information in a different thread… he said he currently goes to Drexel instead of Rutgers.</p>

<p>Btw, in rankings for philosophy, no one cares about the NRC rankings, it’s the Leiter rankings that matter.</p>

23

<p>^^^</p>

<p>I think he went to Drexel his FRESHMAN year, but goes to Rutgers for his soph year.</p>

<p>If he can afford all the costs at NYU and he likes the city, then he should go to NYU. However, if he needs aid, NYU is going to expect his parents to take out large loans.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>In the few other posts he has, he said that he applied to NYU, UMich, and Emory from Drexel. No mention of Rutgers. Honestly I had thought that this thread was a little strange because the smartest option for pre-law in this situation out of all in this thread (not taking into account fit) should be Rutgers because it is inexpensive for a NJ resident and has one of the best philosophy departments and is also pretty decent for poli sci.</p>

25

<p>Yes, I did in fact go to Drexel my freshmen year and am currently at Rutgers. And yes, Rutgers does have a good philosophy program. However, note that I’m a double major in philosophy and poli sci. NYU’s philosophy is better than Rutgers and their poli sci is as well. UM has strength in both philosophy and poli sci. Coming in top 10 for both categories. As for Emory, it’s undergrad college is reputable but their philosophy and poli sci depts are not on the same level as both UM and NYU. There are two reasons for attending any of these schools overs Rutgers: (1) If I were not accepted at t-14, I would (as a large percentage of students now seem to do) use my undergrad degree to obtain employment somewhere involved in law, then reapply to t-14 in 1-3 years. (2) If for any reason whatsoever that I decide that I do not want attend t-14 or any law school for that matter and instead want graduate school, it would seem (or so to me) that the reputation of your undergraduate does have at least considerable weight when applying to grad school. (As all academias view credentials as essential)</p>

26

<p>Also, the cost of Rutgers because I am in-state was not a factor in me attending – something came up that required me to unaccept my admission for fall term for Emory (as that was where I was planning on enrolling). In fact, my mother actually refuses to pay for Rutgers as she says it isn’t acclaimed well enough. Whereas the other schools I have listed are “acceptable” to her.</p>

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<p>“UM has strength in both philosophy and poli sci. Coming in top 10 for both categories.”</p>

<p>Michigan is often ranked among the top 5 in both. ;)</p>

28

<p>

Once again you’re making up total BS to support your two favorite schools, UMich and UCB, at all costs.</p>

<p>[Undergraduate</a> representation at Harvard Law](<a href=“TestMasters LSAT Prep Course | Live and Online Classes”>TestMasters LSAT Prep Course | Live and Online Classes)</p>

<h1>1 Emory: 14 total 0.002206</h1>

<h1>2 Michigan: 24 total 0.000967</h1>

<h1>3 NYU: 17 total 0.000841</h1>

<p>[Class</a> of 2010 Profile](<a href=“http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class10.htm]Class”>http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class10.htm)</p>

<h1>1 Emory: 6</h1>

<h1>2 Michigan: 4</h1>

<h1>3 NYU: 1</h1>

<p>As you can see, all three of these schools are equally good law school feeders. Emory will be more represented at Duke, UVA, Vandy, Georgetown, etc. while U of M will be better represented at UM Law, Northwestern, Chicago, Wash U, etc. Their representation at Harvard and Yale will be similarly good or bad depending on how you look at it.</p>

29

<p>If NYU law was my ultimate goal. Would it be overly presumptuous to go to NYU for undergrad and use their pre-law society and the school’s favorability of itself (I’m making an assumption that is correlated, yet may not be causal) to get into NYU Law? Or is making such a bet an unwise one and I should go to one of the other two?</p>

30

<p>If you look into it, law school admission is inordinately a function of GPA and LSAT score. So go to the school where you think you’ll thrive enough to get a high GPA and become sharp enough to get a top LSAT score. </p>

<p>Historically, Michigan is by far the best school of the 3 you mentioned. NYU and Emory have only become elite schools in recent decades, and the latter is still quite weak in most graduate areas. </p>

<p>Going to NYU for undergrad will probably have little to no bearing on your chances of NYU law. Given the disproportionate amount of NYU undergrads who apply to NYU law, I can only assume that it may hurt you. They may be able to contextualize your GPA to your detriment, as well. For example, if you take courses that have a reputation for being easy, the probability that the NYU law adcom knows this is probably higher. They’ll also have a better sense of the longitudinal trends of NYU GPA’s in your area. They may make assessments to the effect of “we haven’t admitted a Philosophy major with below a 3.7 for the past 5 years.” </p>

<p>This is all conjecture, of course. My main point is that it won’t necessarily confer an advantage.</p>

31

<p>Actually LDB, Michigan is not better represented at Chicago Law. Michigan currently has 19 students to Emory’s 5. I would say they are equally well represented. However, there are two points that RML makes that are worth considering:</p>

<p>1) RML says: “UMich has a top law school, solid top 10 in the nation. Emory hasn’t, so their students cross schools to get into a top-rated law school. UMich undergrads account the most represented at UMich law school, so that is a plus factor for those UMich undergrads who want to get into a t-14 law school. Michigan Law is one of the top 10 in the nation and accepts/enrolls a huge number of Michigan undergrads annually.” </p>

<p>That is very true. Statiscally speaking, Michigan Law favors Michigan students over students from other colleges/universities. Over 150 students currently enrolled at Michigan Law are Michigan alums. Michigan students with GPAs of 3.8 or better do not even have to submit the LSAT when applying to Michigan Law. Many Michigan students will turn down non-HYS Law schools in favor of staying at Michigan. </p>

<p>2) RML says: “OP, it’s true that UMich is bigger than either NYU or Emory. However, not everyone at UMich pursue law studies. And those who do mostly get into top law schools.” </p>

<p>That’s an important varriable. One should also consider the percentage of students who actually apply to Law school. I recall reading somewhere that over 27% of Emory students apply to Law school, compared to 15% of Michigan students. This would suggest that comparing ratios based on size of undergraduate student body would not be telling.</p>

<p>At any rate, I do not believe that t14 Law school admissions committees (with the exception of Michigan Law) will differentiate between Emory and Michigan applicants.</p>

32

<p>Would there be any noticeable differentiation when it comes to review by t14 between those two (Michigan and Emory) compared to NYU? Or are they all considered of same general quality of undergraduate institution and all looked at equally?</p>

33

<p>What I kept hearing from law school admissions counselors was that law school admissions…even at the T-14 is primarily numbers driven. </p>

<p>GPA & LSAT is most of the decision with a tiny bump up if you attended undergrad at certain elite law schools’ campuses like HYS or you are an in-state resident of a given state university law schools like UMich or UVA. </p>

<p>In short, if you can do well in your undergrad and do well on the LSAT…you have a great chance of making into the T-14 barring a poorly written personal statement. Even if your GPA is on the lowish side so long as your GPA was above a 3.0, you still have a chance of making T-14 if you do well on the LSAT with a 170 or better. Several college classmates with GPAs well south of 3.4 managed to gain admission to T-14 law schools like Georgetown and UVA…including one classmate with barely a 3.0…and none were URMs. </p>

<p>Incidentally, have you interned at a law firm? If not, you really should just to see if working as a practicing lawyer is really like and whether it is for you.</p>

34

<p>

This phenomenon of “home school” advantage occurs at almost every other university that has a good law school though. Emory has a good law school (not as good as Michigan) and Emory undergrads probably get a huge boost there as UVA grads would get to UVA Law, UCB grads to Boalt, NYU grads to NYU Law.</p>

<p>I think its a little too optimistic on your part to say that Michigan students turn down Columbia, NYU or Chicago Law to go to U of M’s law school. I doubt it is higher than a 1/4 of the cross admits that choose strictly between Michigan Law and one of these three law schools because law school, unlike undergrad, is all about prestige and reputation. Even within the T14, there are distinct tiers. HYS is better than CCN which is better than PMVBN (Penn, Michigan, Virginia, Boalt, Northwestern) which is better than DGC (Duke, Georgetown, Cornell). If a Michigan undergrad gets the Wolverine scholarship or whatever its called, then it makes more sense to choose Michigan Law over CCN, but still not over HYS.</p>

<p>

Huh, proof? I think you can get the figure for the number of students who apply to law school for any given institution from LSDAS, the governing law school committee. A Michigan professor who taught me while I studied abroad and is actually on the Law School Committee personally told me that about a 1/4 of LSA applies to law school so that would be about 1,150 law school applicants every year (25% of an LSA class of typically a little over 4,600). Emory’s number, on the other hand, would be about 460 (27% of about 1700 undergrads each year). That’s almost exactly 2.5x as many law school applicants from U of M compared to Emory.</p>

<p>I think most top universities (top 30ish) are going to have a similar amount of kids interested in law, business and medicine within their school of Arts & Sciences. It doesn’t make sense to say that Emory, Duke or Georgetown students are more interested in banking, consulting, law or medicine than Michigan students. After all, what then would most LSA grads from Michigan do? Law and medicine probably easily covers half of them whether they succeed or not.</p>

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<p>“I think its a little too optimistic on your part to say that Michigan students turn down Columbia, NYU or Chicago Law to go to U of M’s law school. I doubt it is higher than a 1/4 of the cross admits that choose strictly between Michigan Law and one of these three law schools because law school, unlike undergrad, is all about prestige and reputation. Even within the T14, there are distinct tiers. HYS is better than CCN which is better than PMVBN (Penn, Michigan, Virginia, Boalt, Northwestern) which is better than DGC (Duke, Georgetown, Cornell).”</p>

<p>Michigan students admitted to HYS Law will almost always choose them over Michigan Law. Michigan students admitted to the remaining t14 Law schools tend to favor staying at Michigan. Although I agree that there is a tiering of sorts within the t14, I disagree slightly with your tiering. I would say that HYS would be at the top, followed by Chicago and Columbia and then followed by Boalt, Michigan, NYU, Penn and UVa. The next group would include the remaining t14 in equal measure. The reputational rating generated by Judges and Legal Scholars used by the USNWR would support me on that:</p>

<p>Harvard: 4.8/5.0
Yale: 4.8/5.0
Stanford: 4.75/5.0</p>

<p>Chicago: 4.65/5.0
Columbia: 4.65/5.0</p>

<p>Michigan: 4.5/5.0
UVa: 4.5/5.0
Boalt: 4.45/5.0
NYU: 4.45/5.0
Penn: 4.45/5.0</p>

<p>Cornell: 4.25/5.0
Duke: 4.25/5.0
Georgetown: 4.25/5.0
Northwestern: 4.2/5.0</p>

<p>As such, I would say that with the exception of Columbia and perhaps Chicago, Michigan students will generally chose Michigan Law over other t14 law schools by a clear majority and would probably split 40/60 in favor of Chicago and Columbia Law. If you look at the numbers closely, you will see that. </p>

<p>[College</a> of Literature, Science, and the Arts : Students](<a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/advisor/prelaw/um_stats]College”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/advisor/prelaw/um_stats)</p>

<p>In 2009, 92 Michigan students were admitted into Michigan Law. Of those 92, 13 went to HYS. That leaves us with 79 students. Of those 79, 59 chose Michigan Law. The remaining 20 chose other schools. I am fairly certain that the majority of those 20 chose either cheaper options or Columbia/Chicago Law school. The yield rate for Michigan students to Michigan Law is 65%, while for other non-HYS t14 schools is usually under 50%.</p>

<p>“Emory has a good law school (not as good as Michigan) and Emory undergrads probably get a huge boost there as UVA grads would get to UVA Law, UCB grads to Boalt, NYU grads to NYU Law.”</p>

<p>LDB, I think you are overstating the quality of Emory’s Law school. The Law schools that immediately proceed the t14 at UT-Austin, UCLA and Vanderbilt. After those three, you have a significant drop between the t14 and the rest. Michigan and NYU law are significantly better than Emory law.</p>

<p>“A Michigan professor who taught me while I studied abroad and is actually on the Law School Committee personally told me that about a 1/4 of LSA applies to law school so that would be about 1,150 law school applicants every year (25% of an LSA class of typically a little over 4,600). Emory’s number, on the other hand, would be about 460 (27% of about 1700 undergrads each year). That’s almost exactly 2.5x as many law school applicants from U of M compared to Emory.”</p>

<p>That was the case back in 2004 or 2005, but since then, only 800-900 Michigan students have applied to Law school annually (scroll to the bottom of the link above for exact numbers). That said, I agree that roughly 2.5 times more Michigan students apply to law school annually than Emory students. That was the point I was making. Stating that Michigan is 4 times larger than Emory is not telling in this case because the percentage of students applying to Law school varries from school to school.</p>

<p>“I think most top universities (top 30ish) are going to have a similar amount of kids interested in law, business and medicine within their school of Arts & Sciences. It doesn’t make sense to say that Emory, Duke or Georgetown students are more interested in banking, consulting, law or medicine than Michigan students.”</p>

<p>I agree with the first part of your statement. But at some schools, Arts and Science majors make up 60%-70% of the overall student population whereas at other schools, they make up 90%-100% of the overall student population. Many on CC, yourself included, lump the entire undergraduate student body when making your analysis. There is a big difference between having 66% of an undergraduate student population in Arts and Sciences and having 90% in the Arts and Sciences.</p>

<p>At any rate, back to the OP’s point, I don’t think t14 Law schools differentiate between tier one universities (and that includes Emory, Michigan and NYU).</p>

36

<p>

lesdiablesbleus, UMich isn’t one of my favorite universities. In fact, it’s not even in my top 10 favorite universities. My favorite universities include: Cambridge, MIT, Harvard, Princeton, Oxford, Berkeley, Northwestern, Caltech, CMU, Rice and Duke, probably in that order. So, the only Midwest school that has caught my attention and interest is Northwestern. But just because UMich isn’t one of my favorites it’s not a great school. It is. And, so are Yale, Chicago, the rest of the Ivies, the Claremont Colleges and a lot more. I’m just saying that my comment about UMich does not have anything to do with my interest, or the lack thereof, for UMich. Maybe you are just too ignorant about UMich. Maybe you’re just biased against State Us, in general. </p>

<p>

Show us the figures of Duke and Georgetown. Vandy isn’t one of the t-14.</p>

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<p>Here’s a sample from Yale - <a href=“http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/public_affairs/07_08_law_bulletin.pdf[/url]”>http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/public_affairs/07_08_law_bulletin.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Undergraduate Representation</p>

<p>Harvard: 79
Yale: 78
Stanford: 37
Princeton: 31
Columbia: 23
UC Berkeley: 16
Dartmouth: 16
Brown: 13</p>

<p>UVA: 10
UPenn: 9
Amherst: 9
Duke: 9</p>

<p>Northwestern: 8
U Michigan: 8
University of Chicago: 8
UCLA: 8
UT Austin: 8
Cornell: 7
Wesleyan: 7
Georgetown: 6
MIT: 5
Swarthmore: 5</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Show me the data of NYU Law. Let’s see how overwhelming the NYU undergrad representation is at their own law school. </p>

<p>

Again, we’re talking about the t-14, so stop mentioning Emory Law because it is not in the t14, alright?</p>

<p>At UVa Law:<a href=“http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class11.htm[/url]”>http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/prospectives/class11.htm&lt;/a&gt;
Michigan - 5
NYU - 4
Emory - 3</p>

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<p>Duke is barely a T-14 school. I think it’s only a matter of time before they fall out. oy</p>

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<p>“lesdiablesbleus, UMich isn’t one of my favorite universities. In fact, it’s not even in my top 10 favorite universities.”</p>

<p>Kind of a redundant statement wouldn’t you say RML? ;-)</p>