Good reasons for schools to value the gpa over the test scores. A high test scoring student who does not have matching grades may have the intelligence but not have the study skills to be successful at a top U. Likewise the lesser testing student may be successful because that student knows how to learn the material. Some schools look at trends in grades (and Stanford doers not look at freshman year)- improving grades show maturing. So, if her junior year grades are stellar while her gpa overall is pulled down by earlier years it is better than the same gpa all years.
Some highly intelligent students (especially boys) will not have the top gpa because they are bored and don’t do the work. These students thrive in a top college when they finally are challenged.
A look at her grades over the years and a discussion with her guidance counselor is indicated in choosing the caliber of schools. Well written recommendations about how she is now working at her potential (as shown by the improved grades) may be useful.
“and Stanford doers not look at freshman year”
Actually, that disclaimer is no longer found on Stanford’s admissions website.
this is what Stanford NOW says:
"Academic preparation is the foundation of your college application. Throughout your high school years, we recommend that you:
take advantage of the opportunities available to you in high school
work hard and achieve at a high level all four years
consult early on with your secondary school counselor"
Our experience has suggested that students who excel in a curriculum like the one below are well-suited for the demands of college academics:
English: four years, with significant emphasis on writing and literature.
Mathematics: four years, with significant emphasis on fundamental mathematical skills (algebra; trigonometry; plane, solid, and analytic geometry).
History/Social Studies: three or more years. Such courses should include the writing of essays.
Science: three or more years of laboratory science (including biology, chemistry and physics).
Foreign Language: three or more years of the same foreign language. Your study of a foreign language ought to include the development of four basic skills: reading, writing, speaking and listening comprehension.
Part of the concern is that the school is relatively new (about 10 years) AND there will be a new counselor this year. We received the new school year paperwork and the counselor just graduated from college herself. I imagine this will be the first year she’ll be writing recommendation letters so it will be a learning experience for her. She will need to base her info from the faculty. My daughter generally flies under the radar and we know she needs to work on that. She participates in class but is not always raising her hand or initiating debates on topics, etc. If you have ever viewed the TED talk by Susan Cain on the “power of introverts”, that describes my daughter to a T. How that translates in teacher and counselor recommendation letters is yet to be seen.
At school she happily participates in a few clubs, has a solid group of friends (but not the “popular” group), sings in the choir, etc. At home, she loves gardening, volunteering on Sunday at an assisted living center and works at a seasonal ice cream shop during the summer. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the counselor will write. Academically, her GPA is an upward trend (ending junior year with a 4.1W). We simply don’t know where her GPA is in comparison to her classmates as there is no GPA distribution material available (not on the school profile and not from the previous guidance counselor). I will have her ask the new counselor once school starts. She is guessing approx. top 20% based on the classes she is taking (e.g. AP Calc).
I am very glad that I posted my initial question because I am more hopeful now that there are colleges out there that might provide her with some merit even with her lower GPA. Many thanks to everyone for their thoughtful and informative reponses! I will update once the applications and results are in.
@brantly I know and that is a concern. Unfortunately, she won’t be able to visit before applying. However, she really is an easygoing person and she feels she can fit in wherever she is fortunate enough to be admitted. At this point, she is trying to narrow her list based on possible merit. And @qialah and @dadx provided us with some more colleges to consider. We’ll take a look.
Admission reps for Stanford have said that they recalculate GPA according to the guidelines in this quote (core subjects, without freshman year). They see and consider the full transcript, but focus on grades 10-12. For example, earlier this week a poster started a thread about being accepted to Stanford with a D in freshman year. Others have been accepted with surprisingly low overall GPAs, but high GPA if you do not consider freshman year. Their decisions seem consistent with focusing on grades 10-12. Stanford is far from the only school that focuses on grades 10-12 and/or recalculates without freshman year. Many have similar policies.
Saying that “Stanford doers not look at freshman year "
is not the same as saying
" We will focus our evaluation on your coursework and performance in 10th, 11th and 12th grades”,
The second sentence does NOT say that they will NOT look at the Freshman year record.
The correct interpretation is that a students record for the last 3 years are looked at more carefully and thoroughly- i.e that is where they “focus” their attention .
Of course, appropriate elective choices matter for the above. A math major can also seek other career directions that are not that picky about one’s major.
Sure, it’s not surprising that most students who have a 4.0 the last three years of high school will also have stellar grades freshman year. you still have 24% of students without 4.0 GPAs and I’d imagine that the grades that brought down their GPAs more likely occurred freshman year.
" hoping for a little merit aid." - At private schools, there will still be huge costs even with some merit aid. You are wise to look for ways to leverage those great test scores. Hopefully you are also looking at in-state public options.
Often students with high test scores and lower GPA are taking AP/IB course that are weighted. If that is the case here, it will help. But you mention it is a small school. So I’ll give you a heads up that college rigor may be a big challenge to her. Be ready for that and look carefully at any GPA requirements for keeping the merit scholarship. At some schools you need 3.5 or 3.75 to keep the merit scholarship, and that puts a lot of pressure on the scholarship students. At my school (engineering, known for low GPA) I lost some of my classmates due to the 3.0 scholarship requirement.
That is essentially what I wrote in my earlier post.
Stanford’s CDS lists a mean GPA of “4.16 weighted,” not an unweighted < 4.0. Similarly your post states 4.0 “or better”, not a standard unweighted system with max GPA of 4.0. This suggests Stanford is using some kind of weighted system for GPAs or other system where above 4.0 is possible. Perhaps it is their recalculation GPA without freshman year. As such, 4.0 does not indicate straight A’s. It may not even include freshman year. Forum members admits as a whole tend to have better stats than typical admits, yet even among forum members who post in decision threads, most admits do not have an unweighted 4.0.
OP, many students strong in math and science do end up in an engineering career. On her UA application, she can put engineering or CS. If she does come to UA, courses starts same way with the math sequence of courses, she can pick up an extra $2500/yr scholarship. If she decides MA major is her thing w/o engineering or CS, can easily change majors with better idea on career direction. Changing to engineering or CS later, can’t pick up that 4 year engineering scholarship, so potentially a $10,000 mistake.
For those looking on this thread that will have a student (rising HS junior or senior) next summer, can attend a one week program where you explore various areas of engineering (at UA the program is called SITE, and includes CS). Colleges like Purdue have a similar program. UA doesn’t advertise the program because the 3 sessions fill up quickly. DD went to SITE before HS senior year and firmed up her area of eng interest.
Lehigh is the only school I know that ways standard test scores (important) above GPA (considered).
Very important are the rigor of the secondary school record, and recommendations. They seem to want students who may have over challenged themselves but are otherwise really smart.
@riverboat If your D is considering LACs, there are several great LACs in the midwest and south where she would receive significant merit aid. Several in the south that come to mind are Centre, Furman, Sewanee, Southwestern, Trinity, Hendrix, Agnes Scott, Rollins, and Rhodes. With your D’s stats, you can expect significant merit aid at these colleges. Here’s an example: http://www.rollins.edu/financial-aid/as-cps-financial-aid/scholarships/index.html
The MOST selective schools are the ones that strongly prioritize transcript over test scores. Those type of schools also ignore the calculated UW and W GPAs. They do their own analysis and calculate their own judgment on the transcript. For example, they will ignore grades in non-core classes and will also look very hard at the levels of classes taken. Say USNWR #30 and higher. FYI, there’s very little merit aid in that band.
Once you get into the USNWR #40 and above, you start hitting the merit aid schools – Case, Lehigh, BU, Northeastern, Miami, Tulane, etc. They all are in the business of buying high SAT/ACT scores. Plenty of LACs and other types of colleges use this model as well.
The schools will also pay for high GPAs, but the GPA data is just so much more muddled than test scores. Because of the non-standard data, the catnip for these schools on grades is whether the kid is in the top 10%, which is the standard reported metric.
My 3.7 UW, 31 ACT kid did great in this band for acceptance and also merit money.
Read through the merit money thread and use the Kiplinger database cited there. Pretty easy to find the schools that will pay for your kid’s scores.
Don’t waste your time money and effort on the highest end schools. Your kid probably won’t get in; if the kid does get in, you’ll get zero merit money and will have to full pay.
Some of the engineering schools like Rensselaer were very persistent once we put in a partial application with S1’s score near 2300 and 800 math. After the deadline passed they’d send extensions to the date and etc. If she loves math, they’ll love her. Rensselaer, GA Tech, Worcester Polytech, Stevens Institute of Technology? And check out Olin College of Engineering - mostly female and looks outstanding, highly selective. Also the net price appeared to come in lower at the engineering schools.
The “probably won’t get in” part is right (which is true for almost literally everyone), but the rest of this I don’t agree with, as noted in my post. I think her scores are competitive, and perhaps there are other things that would add to that competitiveness in an application that we’re not aware of, introvertedness aside. At the Ivy’s you’re only full pay if you make a great deal of money, and I think thats true of some of the others. If you happen to be admitted and your normal middle class, some of the aid levels are remarkable.
Wasting time and effort on applications isn’t really very expensive. Its worthwhile to see if you can create some choices that would allow you to “waste” some tuition money. I say take your best shot.
The OP said the kid had weak transcript as compared to strong test scores. The Ivies are the schools that are the most fussy about transcripts. They care much less about test scores.
The OP said she was looking for merit money. There is zero merit money in the Ivy League.
True that the Ivies do have great financial aid for people making $200k or less. But the OP said they were going to be full payors. Which is why the OP was asking about merit money.
@patertrium May I ask how my DD would put in a “partial” application? Is this done through the CommonApp? It sounds like it would be a good way to get an early read to see if a college might be interested in her.
I say take your best shot.