<p>Hey...
I'm currently an electrical engineering/economics double major at Rice University. I hope to do IP law which is why I'm pursuing an electrical engineering degree rather than a "traditional" pre-law degree. Because of the fact that I'm pursuing an engineering degree, my GPA is significantly lower than that of most law school applicants (around a 3.3). I was wondering if this kills my chances at top 25 law schools (given that I do reasonably well on the LSATS). Also, is Rice known to have a lot of grade inflation? Also, how will law school adcoms view a 3.3ish engineering GPA from Rice University?
Thanks in advance.</p>
<p>I'm not familiar enough with law school admissions to directly answer your questions. However, being in the IP field, I can suggest that you not limit your choice of law schools to the top 25, or the top whatever number you like.</p>
<p>In many localities there are fine law local or regional law schools that are not in the top 25, but are highly regarded by law firms and corporations in that area. For example, here in the San Francisco area, Boalt (UC Berkeley) and Stanford are in the top rank of law schools nationally. However, Hastings (also part of the UC system), University of San Francisco and Santa Clara are all well regarded locally and particularly for their IP programs. In Chicago, John Marshall specializes in IP. In Washington DC., Georgetown is an excellent law school but George Washington is also fine in general as well as in IP.
So cast your net wider. Think about where you might want to live and practice, and look at good schools in those areas, too.</p>
<p>im interested in the original post as well, anyone have info?</p>
<p>Echoing DadofSam's post: you might be better off at a lower-ranked school that is known for IP, rather than a school that aims to be a liberal arts extension of college. You'll have more opportunities with recruitment, as the boutique patent firms will focus on those schools. You'll also get a lot of weird looks from big-firm recruiters - trust me on this one - they will want to know why you're in law school - going to a school with a specialty in IP law might mitigate some of that effect. </p>
<p>I know someone who went to Rice undergrad engineering, did a master's, had a 174 LSAT, and about your GPA. His decisions were all over the map - merit aid from some Top 10 schools and rejected from some other schools. Mostly acceptances, though. </p>
<p>Most of it depends on how well you do on the LSAT.</p>
<p>Many of the best lawyers I know went to law schools most people have probably not heard of. Once you get into practice, it doesn't matter where you went to law school. It matters how good of a lawyer you are. All accredited law schools are deemed competent to teach you the skills you need to become a lawyer. Trying to rank law schools is like trying to judge a beauty contest. Most, if not all, of the contestants are good looking. Pick out the law schools you want to go to, without worrying about whatever ranking they have or don't have, apply to them and choose from among the ones that accept you. If you have what it takes to be a lawyer, you'll find out by the end of your first semester.</p>
<p>Many firms only higher from the top law schools. Even if the schools teach the same material, Employers know Harvard graduates tend to be more skilled lawyers then State U. law school graduates.</p>
<p>Unless you are certain of the geographic region in which you want to practice for the rest of your life, where you go to law school matters. </p>
<p>Many engineers go to law school. I had several classmates with engineering backgrounds who did very well in law school, and who went on to great careers in patent law. Though grades definitely matter in law school admissions, and you risk being compared to applicants with majors that lend themselves generally to high GPAs, law school admissions officers do know that different majors and different schools have different grading policies, and they are not blind to that. However, there are plenty of law school applicants who have engineering degrees with very high GPAs, and you will certainly be compared to them if you apply to top law schools.</p>
<p>sallyawp, could you estimate the average gpa of a successful law applicant who has the undergrad degree in engineering? Are engineering applicants more welcome at any particular type of law school?</p>
<p>I couldn't possibly estimate, and I don't know that there is one of the top schools that would look more favorably upon an application from an applicant with an engineering degree. Admissions to the very top law schools is never easy, nor is it ever a sure thing. The only things that give you a good chance to get into a top law school are your grades (which includes an evaluation by the admissions officers of the difficulty of your major, your college, and the overall breadth and difficulty of your coursework), your LSAT score, your personal statement and your recommendations. There is no magic formula or combination of these factors that get you in for sure. I maintain that an applicant with a high GPA and LSAT score combined with a well-written and thoughtful personal statement and solid recommendations must still be sprinkled with a bit of pixie dust to get you in the door. The streets are littered with the crumpled up pages of applications to law schools submitted by students with 3.8 GPAs and 174 LSAT scores. Plenty of people with higher scores than these are rejected every year, and plenty of people with lower scores get in. Why? Can't say - perhaps differing amounts of pixie dust? My very best advice is to do well in a major that you enjoy, take classes outside your major that expand your horizons, learn to read and comprehend and to write well. Get to know your professors so that your recommendations will shine. Enjoy college while you have the opportunity. If you are passionate about the law and about attending law school, then I have no doubt that you will be successful no matter where you land.</p>
<p>Thanks for your input! Actually sally, it is my son who aspires to law school. I really know very little about the subject. He has a 4.0 in engineering after one year, but I know this will be very difficult to maintain. He is a smart kid and a hard worker though, so maybe it is possible.</p>
<p>I inferred from other threads that some top law schools tended to be more theoretical and/or draw many students from their own undergraduate colleges; therefore, engineering undergrads may be at somewhat of a disadvantage for admission to some schools. I guess we'll have to wait and see!</p>
<p>A 4.0 in engineering anywhere is quite an accomplishment! Great for your son. If he can continue to do so well, he should certainly be in the running for admission to any number of law schools.</p>
<p>It will not make a bit of difference where you went to law school once you get into practice. If you want to drink the "Ivy League Kool-Aid" and walk around believing that a Harvard Law Degree is better than a UC (Hastings), Ohio State, or UC Davis Law degree then you can get all stressed out about law school. Otherwise, just make sure you pass the bar in the state(s) you want to practice and, if you are good, you'll get all the cases you need. Certain firms (not many) do hire from the law schools where the partners graduated. However, since "Harvard" lawyers don't make up a significant percentage of lawyers in the US; you may find that if you have a Harvard Law degree you can also find yourself locked out of some top law firms. Once again, doesn't matter where you go to law school as long as it is accredited. Finis.</p>
<p>Bill<em>h</em>pike wrote:</p>
<p>"Harvard graduates tend to be more skilled lawyers then State U. law school graduates."</p>
<p>I'm sure all the lawyers who graduated from UC Berkeley (Boalt Hall), UC (Hastings Law School), and UCLA will get a good laugh at your post. I'll bet that Harvard Law wishes what you have said was true.</p>
<p>Mvellius, you're just not correct. Please search these postings to see the tremendous number of discussions on this topic.</p>
<p>sallyawp wrote:</p>
<p>"Mvellius, you're just not correct. Please search these postings to see the tremendous number of discussions on this topic."</p>
<p>The postings and discussions on College Confidential about this matter are not dispositive with respect to this issue. Once again, in practice, it does not matter which law school you attended. For a prospective lawyer, it does not matter which law school you attend (assuming the law school is accredited in the jusrisdiction(s) where you want to practice, allows you to take the bar exam in that jurisdiction, and practice). That's a fact. If you don't believe that, then contact the ABA or Committee of Bar Examiners, in any State you choose. See what they have to say. </p>
<p>How about a new debate for prospective lawyers about going to law school vs. not going to law school? In California, you do not even have to attend law school in order to practice law (see Rules Regulating Admission to Practice Law in California, Sections 2 and 3 of Rule VII of the Rules):</p>
<p>So, is a Member of the California Bar who earned his or her right to take the Bar Exam and practice law less of a lawyer in California than a lawyer who went to law school? The answer is clearly no. </p>
<p>For anybody who wants to become a lawyer, the most important thing is getting a license to practice law and finding a place to practice. Once you do that, your ability as a lawyer will become self-evident and you will rise or fall based on that ability and character.</p>
<p>My friend who worked in the admissions department and rice and was thus had network contacts with the admissions office of Rice and other school said that Rice is treated very favorably by most top programs, stating that Rice Applicants to Berkeley Graduate programs (top 3) get a .2 boost to their gpa. Rice is known for grade deflation so I would suspect many other schools would give Rice similar credit and you would actually have a 3.5 for many adcoms. A 3.5 is certainly not limiting; you will be in the range for most top law schools though the holy trinity (HYS) will probably be out of reach unless you have a 178-180. </p>
<p>Rice doesn't have much of a reputation among the common population outside of the South, but among schools in the know, I think its reputation is quite good.</p>
<p>I don't think that Rice is known for grade deflation. In fact, I applied there as a transfer student because I thought its grade inflation would help me with graduate school admissions. I know the engineering school has grade deflation, but so do all respected engineering programs...</p>
<p>calipharius,</p>
<p>Rice is known for grade deflation...</p>
<p>...it is just that for some reason, it is just not true:D</p>
<p>I know of someone who went to a solid regional college and majored in Mech engineering. He had a 2.8 GPA, did amazing on his LSAT, got into a top 25 LS then landed an awesome job in patent law.</p>
<p>Unless you are committed to practicing law for the rest of your life in a particular regional area and you go to a law school that is very well respected within that region, it absolutely does matter where you go to law school. There is no question that a lawyer from a top law school has opportunities to practice anywhere in the country that he or she likes, where a lawyer from a school with only a regional or local reputation is going to have a much tougher time kicking the doors for opportunities outside of that region. Mvellius mentioned that lawyers who don't even go to law school can take the bar exam in California. That is certainly true, but I'm sure those lawyers have a tough time competing for jobs against some of the graduates of the fantastic law schools in California (and well known law schools from anywhere else, for that matter), and, to my knowledge, they can never leave California if they want to practice. There are tons of unemployed and underemployed law graduates out there, and I doubt that too many of them are Harvard Law School graduates. Sure, any lawyer who passes the bar can can him or herself a lawyer, but that doesn't automatically mean that that lawyer, as talented as he or she may potentially be, will ever get the same shot to prove their worth as a lawyer as someone from a well known school like Stanford or Hastings or Michigan or Harvard. </p>
<p>In the world in which I practice, it matters. In fact, it matters for much longer than you would ever expect. A few years ago, when I was applying for an in house position at a large corporation, part of the application process was providing the corporation with my SAT scores, LSAT scores (that's right!), college and law school transcripts, and references from professors as well as colleagues. This was after I had been practicing for a number of years. I know from many of my former colleagues that they have gone through similar processes even once they have been out of law school for ten years or more. </p>
<p>Also, when employers are getting resumes by the dozens, if not by the hundreds, for every open position that they post, you can be assured that the easiest criteria for separating out resumes worth a second look is to keep only those candidates who look good on paper (i.e. went to good schools) during that first round of review. I've seen it happen time and again. Are there probably very bright lawyers who never get their foot in the door because of these practices? Absolutely. It doesn't change the process and the fact that except in the circumstances that I mentioned above, where you go to law school matters.</p>