<p>Sakky, you should keep in mind that only a fraction of all bachelor's degree granting institutions offer engineering majors, and they tend to be more prestigious than those that don't. So if you look at it that way, I would argue that engineers get into med school at a rate lower than their counterparts at the same school.</p>
<p>"i'm guessing he means because Engineers make much better money out of school, and will go alot further to paying the bills than a poli sci degree."</p>
<p>yes, that's exactly what I meant....60k starting salary ain't bad when you're 23, so it's worth it if you want to make some quick, EASY cash!! Junior engineers have the time of their lives in many companies -- it's the highly politicized-shaky-outsourceable-downsizable 100k salary at the age of 30 that stinks!!! Zero job security, having your boss explain to his boss why he needs a senior engineer when he could hire 2 juniors, etc....that's the sh-t to avoid. Get into med school before 25 ....between 21-25, working in a "high"-tech firm is tolerable and may even be profitable, provided you have an exit strategy!! If you get stuck in corporate engineering without an exit strategy, good luck.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sakky, you should keep in mind that only a fraction of all bachelor's degree granting institutions offer engineering majors, and they tend to be more prestigious than those that don't. So if you look at it that way, I would argue that engineers get into med school at a rate lower than their counterparts at the same school.
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<p>Oh, I don't know about that. It would be an interesting study to perform, no doubt. However, I would suspect that it's probably a wash. To wit, consider these factors:</p>
<ul>
<li>Engineering programs have historically been most prevalent at public colleges, especially land-grant colleges, including plenty of no-name public colleges like Montana Tech or New Mexico Tech. Even many of the flagship public engineering schools are basically no-name schools. LSU, for example, is one of the largest producers of engineering bachelor's degrees in the South, and in fact in the entire US. Let's face it, LSU doesn't exactly have the prestige of Harvard.</li>
</ul>
<p>*In contrast, many of the top private schools have very small (as in the number of students) engineering programs. The 2 most prestigious schools in the world are probably Harvard and Yale. Each of them graduates literally confers only about 15-20 engineering bachelor's degrees a year. Plenty of other high-prestige private schools don't teach engineering at all. For example, most of the elite high-prestige LAC's don't offer engineering. The University of Chicago does not offer engineering. Ditto Emory, WU St. Louis, and plenty of other prestigious private schools. </p>
<p>The fact is, engineering degrees tend to be predominantly granted from no-name schools simply because engineering degrees tend to be granted from large public schools, most of which are no-name. For example, I would submit that the entire Cal State University system probably confers more engineering bachelor's degrees than the entire Ivy league minus Cornell, and maybe even including Cornell. </p>
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[quote]
yes, that's exactly what I meant....60k starting salary ain't bad when you're 23, so it's worth it if you want to make some quick, EASY cash!! Junior engineers have the time of their lives in many companies -- it's the highly politicized-shaky-outsourceable-downsizable 100k salary at the age of 30 that stinks!!! Zero job security, having your boss explain to his boss why he needs a senior engineer when he could hire 2 juniors, etc....
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<p>So I see that you are implicitly admitting that it's a whole lot better than making 30k starting salary and STILL having to brave the same corporate politics and same layoff issues. So what you are saying that, if anything, having an engineering degree is better than having a liberal arts degree. Those people have to work in the same corporate office with the same problems as the engineers - and they don't even get that juicy starting salary. </p>
<p>And again, I would ask the same question that I've asked you before - what if you can't get into med-school? Not every biology/biochem major can get into med-school. In fact, like I said before, the majority of them (55%) who apply get rejected at every med-school they apply to. And that's just talking about those who apply. Many don't because they know they won't get in. </p>
<p>So what happens if you have a biochem degree and have to go into the corporate world? It would seem to me that you would have to put up with the same problems with job security and office politics that the engineer has to. The difference is that the biochem guy, unlike the engineer, isn't making a good salary.</p>
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Sakky, isn't it possible that low G.P.A. students in biochem would be more likely to apply to med school than similarly low GPA students in the hard sciences. </p>
<p>You and I can both agree that a much larger percentage of students in bio/biochem intend on going into medicine. So if students in these majors don't have high GPAs, they may still apply in order to keep their dream alive. On the other hand, many of the students from majors such as engineering may only decide to apply if they feel that their GPAs truly meet the requirements. Thus, while the bio/biochem acceptance percentage might be lower, there are definitely lurking variables which account for that. </p>
<p>In the end, I'm assuming that if corrected for the various factors, the bottom line is that students with high GPAs are accepted into med school while those without high gpas, are rejected, regardless of difficulty of major, as you have stated many a time.
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<p>Yes exactly. That is exactly right, and that proves my point here, which is that there is no 'advantage' to majoring in biochem. I see no evidence that majoring in biochem is going to increase your chances of going to med-school over majoring in something else and just completing your premed requirements as electives. The only 'seeming' advantage, which is that a lot of biology/biochem students end up in medical school, is nothing of the sort, because it has to do with the fact that lots of people who want to go to med-school will choose biology, not because there is anything inherently special about the biology major. </p>
<p>But hey, I have an open mind. If any actual doctor or current medical student wants to provide some reasons as to why he thinks that the actual biology major will actually increase your chances of getting into med-school as opposed to just completing the premed requirements while pursuing another major, or why med-schools will supposedly simply "throw away" the applications of non-biology majors just because they didn't major in biology, let's hear it. I'm especially interested in hearing the answer to the latter. How is it that I happen to know all these people who didn't major in biology yet got into some of the better med-schools in the country if med-schools go around throwing away the applications of non-bio students just because they're not bio students?</p>
<p>ok, so if gpa is the game. which, of all the majors in the world, is easiest to get a good gpa? just in general, not for any specific school. (although you could name some, heh)</p>
<p>Psychology. In my very humble opinion, it's the easiest B.S. to get. Not too much math, yet it can very easily meet the requirements for medical school.</p>
<p>Bottom line: Get a bach in a subject you enjoy. If you love what you're learning, you're more likely to get better grades in it.</p>
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* Engineering programs have historically been most prevalent at public colleges, especially land-grant colleges, including plenty of no-name public colleges like Montana Tech or New Mexico Tech. Even many of the flagship public engineering schools are basically no-name schools.
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<p>The sad thing is that even these no-name flagships are still better than a lot of even worse schools out there. For every no-name flagship, there are several other universities which don't even offer engineering.</p>
<p>Im_blue, true enough, but there really aren't that many no-name private schools that have lots of undergrads out there. Heck, there really aren't that many big private schools period. Most of the big schools tend to be public schools, many of which are no-name. </p>
<p>Look, the large majority of undergrads go to public schools. As a case in point, the 3 main campuses that comprise the Arizona State University system have almost as many total undergrads (about 49,000) as the entire Ivy League does (about 55,000). And I'm not even counting the ASU extension school or the new downtown Phoenix wcampus that ASU is building which will hold thousands more undergrads. And that's just one public school system that isn't even the flagship system of the state. The UoA is the flagship system in the state of Arizona. </p>
<p>And like I said, engineering tends to be a far more commonly taught and more commonly studied subject at the public schools than it is at the private schools. At many elite private schools like Harvard and Yale, practically nobody studies engineering. Even the highly engineering-intensive private schools like MIT are dwarfed in undergrad size by the engineering-intensive public schools like Georgia Tech and Virginia Tech. </p>
<p>Hence, the point is that undergrad engineering enrollment seems to me to be strongly shifted towards no-name public schools.</p>
<p>There's a lot of anti-engineering snobbery in the world - a lot of "intellectuals" look down on engineering as being a trade, not a real education (although, IMO, it's a better education than almost anything you can find - you'll really learn to think). The really snotty people don't want engineering to pollute their liberal-arts institutions and thus either don't have engin. at all; have a very small engin. programme; or only have non-ABET accredited "engineering lite" with a plethora of liberal arts requirements.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that I've taken a second liberal arts major and I'm now in law school. Trust me when I say that engineering is the best education you can get, but people get all impressed when you leave it to become another boring lawyer.</p>
<p>Well, I wouldn't say 'the world'. I have to concur with Alexandre when he says that anti-engineering snobbery seems to be a rather localized American phenomenom. Engineers in Europe and Asia are accorded much greater respect.</p>
<p>What I think the real problem is is that the US just seems to have a general disdain towards all bachelor's degrees in general. I think I read somewhere how the average starting salary for a bachelor's degree holder (of all majors) is something like 33k nationwide. Honestly, that's really not that much money. You can make that without a degree just by being a waitress. You can make that just by learning a blue-collar skill like auto repair or plumbing or a relatively simple technical skill like computer systems administration. You can make that just by getting into a unionized factory job. </p>
<p>Granted, I agree that over time, a college graduate makes significantly more over the lifestime than a non-graduate. However, the return on investment of a simple bachelor's degree is not as high as some of us seem to think it is. That's why a lot of American kids are not particularly enthused about education. They see adults who are highly educated not being all that much better off than the guys working in the mills or waiting tables or fixing cars and they conclude that there's little point in hitting the books.</p>
<p>Maybe it's because I switched routes (originally wanted to do the PhD engineer route, then switched my mind to law), but I can say that there's an anti-engineering snobbery. PhD engineer? Oh, nice. Lawyer? Wow! Good for you! I'm serious here - my friends were thrilled for me when I gave up the idea of grad school for law school. Never mind that engin. is a hell of a lot harder!</p>
<p>"my friends were thrilled for me when I gave up the idea of grad school for law school."</p>
<p>That's because you made THE RIGHT choice!! of course your friends are going to be thrilled for you!! Sure, lawyers get a lot of politics in the corporate world as well, but at least they're paid well and have better job stability than engineers....a law degree isn't MD caliber, but it's a step up from a MS/PhD in comp sci, where you have to be brilliant to get in, but in the real world you have peons that can do almost the same job as you for much less.</p>
<p>Engineer's seem much more respected in Canada than they are in the states; at least in Alberta. They make more up here too.</p>
<p>ariesathena, what do you think of Law School? I'm considering Law after I get my engineering bachelors.</p>
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[quote]
That's because you made THE RIGHT choice!! of course your friends are going to be thrilled for you!! Sure, lawyers get a lot of politics in the corporate world as well, but at least they're paid well and have better job stability than engineers....a law degree isn't MD caliber, but it's a step up from a MS/PhD in comp sci, where you have to be brilliant to get in, but in the real world you have peons that can do almost the same job as you for much less.
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<p>So, aehmo, what do you have to say about those people who get PhD's in English? Or History? Or Math? Or a PhD in your beloved biochem? </p>
<p>I find it very funny indeed that you constantly bang on engineering but you never say a single word about all those liberal arts majors. What is that all about?</p>
<p>"So, aehmo, what do you have to say about those people who get PhD's in English? Or History? Or Math? Or a PhD in your beloved biochem? </p>
<p>I find it very funny indeed that you constantly bang on engineering but you never say a single word about all those liberal arts majors. What is that all about?"</p>
<p>Well, the difference between the English and History majors versus the engineering majors whose life is wasted pursuing their respective degrees is this.....</p>
<p>Engineers are actually SMART! It's a shame when smart people get stuck in a rut such as engineering jobs...for english/history majors that get stuck in a similar rut, it's not a big deal because they were going to get stuck no matter what!!! The biggest shame about engineering is that these are students that are damn well capable of doing any job in the world (including med field, law etc.), but end up working towards a dead end in corporate engineering companies.</p>
<p>Thats, the d i f f E RENCE!!!</p>
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[quote]
Well, the difference between the English and History majors versus the engineering majors whose life is wasted pursuing their respective degrees is this.....</p>
<p>Engineers are actually SMART! It's a shame when smart people get stuck in a rut such as engineering jobs...for english/history majors that get stuck in a similar rut, it's not a big deal because they were going to get stuck no matter what!!! The biggest shame about engineering is that these are students that are damn well capable of doing any job in the world (including med field, law etc.), but end up working towards a dead end in corporate engineering companies.</p>
<p>Thats, the d i f f E RENCE!!!
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<p>So you're taking the position that a person who gets a PhD in English or History or Biochem is not smart? That's an interesting position that I think nobody will agree with.</p>
<p>Besides, I don't think that all engineers are smart. The guy with an engineering degree with a no-name school probably isn't all that smart. He's not smarter than the guy who gets a degree in Art History from Harvard. But who has a more stable career? That is, unless you're going to take the position that a Harvard Art History guy isn't smart. Again, that's a position that nobody will agree with.</p>
<p>Actually....</p>
<p>I've talked to people in a similar situation (highly employable before law school) and they agree with what I've been slowly finding out: law school can actually make you less employable.</p>
<p>I'm going to a very highly regarded law school, make excellent grades, but am finding out how very tough the legal job market is. As much as I love law school (to answer a question of a poster above), I'm not sure that it's the right CAREER choice for me. </p>
<p>There's also a huge issue for a lot of law students that you are conveniently ignoring, out of either privilege or youth: debt. I graduated debt-free with a bachelor's in chemical engineering and a job that paid me $50k/year - in a very stable company that hardly ever lays people off. A lot of 22-year-olds have little or no undergrad debt: almost no one puts themselves through private school without any financial aid. Law schools rarely give out merit aid, and it's often for only a few thousand dollars. 35% (and growing) of law school grads have OVER $100,000 of debt. Med school is worse (mostly because it's four years, not three years). My loan payment will be $17,000 per year for ten years. That means that, before taxes, I'll have to make about $30,000 more per year to break even. </p>
<p>Between my tuition and lost wages, it costs me five hundred bucks a day to be here - weekends, weekdays, holidays during the school year. Law school will be over $300k of lost wages, tuition, books, etc. and interest, by the time I'm done. That is an INSANE amount of money. That's a house in most parts of the country. </p>
<p>Had I stayed in engineering, my company would have paid for an MBA or a master's. A Ph.D. will give you more of a raise than you would have gotten for working and gaining seniority during those five years. </p>
<p>Honestly, Aehmo, you have no clue about the financial implications of what you're talking about. Congrats for being so privileged (or ignorant) as to not have to worry about plebian concerns such as, oh, tuition money, but that's not life for the rest of us.</p>
<p>I'l still waiting for Aehmo's opinion on all those people who get PhD's in anything - whether it be engineering, English, History, Biochemistry, whatever it is. I would like to see whether he will take the position that all these people who get PhD's are all stupid.</p>
<p>"Had I stayed in engineering, my company would have paid for an MBA or a master's. A Ph.D. will give you more of a raise than you would have gotten for working and gaining seniority during those five years. </p>
<p>Honestly, Aehmo, you have no clue about the financial implications of what you're talking about. "</p>
<p>Aristhena, if you'd gotten your PhD, you'd have spent 5 years in school!! ...Waaay more than time than getting a law degree!! That's 500k in opportunity cost, plus 30x5=150k in tuition, plus 60k in living expenses!! Instead of paying $500/day for 2 years in law school, you'd pay $500/day for <em>5</em> years in grad school, and you'd be $750k in debt, and you'd be even LESS employable...does that sound like a good plan to you????? </p>
<p>"So you're taking the position that a person who gets a PhD in English or History or Biochem is not smart? That's an interesting position that I think nobody will agree with."</p>
<p>Yes - he's not as smart as somebody that get's a PhD in Engineering from the same school (on average). You also made a point that Harvard english majors are smarter than the engineers at no-name schools -- true, but Harvard engineers are smarter than Harvard english-majors.....thus my point that engineers are smarter, and thus it's a shame when they get crappy jobs (and not a shame if an Film-studies major gets a crappy job) still holds.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yes - he's not as smart as somebody that get's a PhD in Engineering from the same school (on average). You also made a point that Harvard english majors are smarter than the engineers at no-name schools -- true, but Harvard engineers are smarter than Harvard english-majors.....thus my point that engineers are smarter, and thus it's a shame when they get crappy jobs (and not a shame if an Film-studies major gets a crappy job) still holds.
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<p>That's not what I asked. I am asking whether anybody who gets a PhD in anything is being foolish in your opinion. It's a yes or no question. </p>
<p>In particular, I am also asking what you think about a guy who gets a PhD in English vs. a guy who has just a bachelor's degree in Engineering. Who is the one who is really being foolish in his career choice, in your opinion? </p>
<p>Also I see that you say that Harvard English majors are smarter than engineers from no-name schools. You have also stated that you think engineers from no-name schools are being foolish, right? So then that must mean that you think the Harvard English majors are REALLY being foolish, right? After all, they're smarter then the average engineer, right? </p>
<p>So why not come out and say it, aehmo? You've never been shy before, so why start now? You think that everybody who gets a PhD is being foolish. You also think that everybody who gets into a top school but doesn't later become a medical doctor is being foolish too, right? Come on, don't be shy. Come right out and say it. </p>
<p>So when you take your beloved biochem class and you see your prof with the PhD, why don't you just admit that deep inside, you're laughing at him and thinking that he must be such a fool for such a smart guy to have made such poor choices with his career. Right? What a shame, right? This prof is clearly smart enough to be a medical doctor, but he isn't.</p>