Engineering major first then go into investment banking

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>I would also like to call into question whether or not those jobs reflect the students primary jobs or secondary jobs. With a low starting salary in just about anything I could easily see a fresh out of college student getting a side job at Starbucks nights and weekends.</p>

<p>I know engineering grads pulling in 60k who do that kind of thing, a down payment on a house ain't a cheap thing, you need all the money you can pull get.</p>

<p>It is very difficult to draw conclusions from that survey without making some pretty big assumptions.</p>

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<p>I would think it is safe to assume that new graduates will report their primary employment.</p>

23

<p>
[quote]

It is very difficult to draw conclusions from that survey without making some pretty big assumptions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, I would hardly say that it is an assumption that new graduates are almost certainly going to report their primary employment, as lfk725. After all, these are the same sorts of employment surveys that, say the, US Census department runs. Or, for that matter, other schools run to determine what their graduates do. To say that the Berkeley survey data is somehow tainted is to then beg the question of why the other survey data isn't similarly tainted, when they all use the same general methodology. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I know engineering grads pulling in 60k who do that kind of thing, a down payment on a house ain't a cheap thing, you need all the money you can pull get.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Really? I don't know a single engineering grad who would even think of taking a sidejob at Starbucks or similar sort of low-paying retail job on the side. If they do take side jobs, they take quite lucrative engineering consulting/contracting work. Or, they would probably just choose to work harder on their primary engineering job in order to enhance their bonus and/or their promotion potential.</p>

24

<p>I will certainly call into question the accuracy of any of these survey, all of them not just UCB's, particularly in regards to the claim made from it on this thread. I have taken these surveys for my school, they send you roughly 15 emails begging you to fill them out until you finally do, and at the time you probably rush through them. Who knows what students will put/make up. Certainly there is some useful information to be taken from them but its frivolous to draw conclusions from the extreme cases, I can think of several reasons to call their truth into question.</p>

<p>And really Sakky, I do know of engineering grads that do this. I'd love to give you the address and name of the restaurants that a few of them work out to help support the rest of their family through school while paying for a mortgage, but I'll respect their confidentiality. They graduated with me, in engineering and currently work for the Army Research Lab (2) and Lockheed. You constantly refer to people you know in support of your arguments, its hypocritical for you to question these accounts from others. Just because you don't know a single engineering grad who would even think of taking a job such as this does not mean that you are right or would have any insight as to the fact that they would just work harder to get bonuses, etc.</p>

25

<p>And seriously, in this part of the world, and in this time, how the hell would a Berkeley grad not be able to find a job better than a barista at Starbucks? if he's not able to find a job? who will? isn't that why people pay 5000+ a year to get education from top schools like Berkeley? to work at Starbucks? Come on, use some common sense here. I'm not saying that what you're saying is BS, but you'd never know for sure</p>

26

<p>Sakky, How many of those students report those type of jobs? Perhaps they are attending graduate school, or doing freelance work in their spare time, or perhaps writing a book. Some folks blog or podcast in an attempt to get noticed and land their dream job I can relate to how a less demanding job frees up time, and is less stressful giving them the opportunity to devote more time to what they love. My mother worked in a pharmacy while attending graduate school, simply because working in a pharmacy in a small town, gave her the opportunity to read and do work while things were slow.</p>

<p>I appreciate your insight, as it is generally wonderful. However, I think it is safe to say that companies are very impressed with a name like UCBerkeley, and that there are plenty of jobs available for students with any degree from Berkeley, they just prefer less-demanding jobs sometimes, while doing other things with their free time.</p>

<p>There's also always a few cocky degenerates who believe the world owes them something and have trouble finding a job due to their unwillingness to work hard. I attend City College, which gives me the opportunity to network a lot with Columbia students, whose campus is just a few blocks north of City's. I can see how some of these students may end up with a job at Starbucks, not because they are unable to find another job, but because they feel that since they graduate from Columbia, they deserve 6 figures annually, at a firm where whatever they say is superior to everyone else's because of the prestige of their degree. </p>

<p>So Although a degree from UCBerkeley, Columbia, or any other top tier institution may not directly equate to a good job with good money, it is more than safe to say that the average Berkeley graduate will generally have far more opportunities than most.</p>

27

<p>
[quote]
Sakky, How many of those students report those type of jobs? Perhaps they are attending graduate school,or doing freelance work

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If they are going to graduate school, then they should be reporting that (notice how many people surveyed reported they were going to grad school). If they are doing freelance work, then they should report that. Why report a job like Starbucks barista, unless that is in fact your primary occupation? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Some folks blog or podcast in an attempt to get noticed and land their dream job I can relate to how a less demanding job frees up time, and is less stressful giving them the opportunity to devote more time to what they love. My mother worked in a pharmacy while attending graduate school, simply because working in a pharmacy in a small town, gave her the opportunity to read and do work while things were slow.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And again, your mother would have then reported that she was going to graduate school, as many of the other Berkeley English grads reported that they were doing. </p>

<p>
[quote]

There's also always a few cocky degenerates who believe the world owes them something and have trouble finding a job due to their unwillingness to work hard. I attend City College, which gives me the opportunity to network a lot with Columbia students, whose campus is just a few blocks north of City's. I can see how some of these students may end up with a job at Starbucks, not because they are unable to find another job, but because they feel that since they graduate from Columbia, they deserve 6 figures annually, at a firm where whatever they say is superior to everyone else's because of the prestige of their degree. </p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But then how does it make sense for these cocky degenerates at Berkeley who think the world owes them something to then end up working at Starbucks? Why would they take a job like that? How does that assuage their egos? Wouldn't it be far more logical for these people to not take that job at all and simply report that they are "seeking employment", the way that 23% of the people did?</p>

<p>Career</a> Center - What Can I Do With a Major In...? </p>

<p>
[quote]
I appreciate your insight, as it is generally wonderful. However, I think it is safe to say that companies are very impressed with a name like UCBerkeley, and that there are plenty of jobs available for students with any degree from Berkeley, they just prefer less-demanding jobs sometimes, while doing other things with their free time.
...
So Although a degree from UCBerkeley, Columbia, or any other top tier institution may not directly equate to a good job with good money, it is more than safe to say that the average Berkeley graduate will generally have far more opportunities than most.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Aha! Now I think you're getting to what MY central point is. Nobody disputes that Berkeley is a top school, nobody disputes that Berkeley is seen by employers as a better brand name than most other schools.</p>

<p>However, my central point is that merely graduating from a top school does not automatically guarantee that you will have a good job. You can graduate from a top school and still end up with a job that is no better than what you could get as a high school graduate (or heck, even as a high school dropout). </p>

<p>As a lemma, I would also point out what I think many people know already, but I think still needs to be emphasized (as this is the engineering forum): your major has a great influence on what salary you will probably obtain. Some majors (i.e. engineering majors) pay much better starting salaries than other majors, on average.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
And seriously, in this part of the world, and in this time, how the hell would a Berkeley grad not be able to find a job better than a barista at Starbucks? if he's not able to find a job? who will? isn't that why people pay 5000+ a year to get education from top schools like Berkeley? to work at Starbucks?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>All very good questions. But, whether we like it or not, people from top schools end up in precisely those kinds of jobs. </p>

<p>But let me put it to you this way. The average starting salary for Berkeley English grads in 2006 was ~36k. So you add in all of the English grads who got good jobs and those who got bad jobs and the resulting average is 36k. That was actually higher (by about 10%) than the average starting salary for all liberal arts majors from ALL schools in 2006. They made 33k.</p>

<p>Most</a> lucrative college degrees - Feb. 15, 2006</p>

<p>What that indicates is that while some Berkeley English grads ended up in low-paying jobs, so did grads from other schools. In fact those other grads are probably MORE likely to end up in those low-paying jobs. Hence, the Berkeley data is, if nothing else, consistent. Not all college grads end up in good jobs.</p>

<p>As another example, let's talk about an 'average' school'. I have the career data reports of Western Michigan University. Some jobs I noticed that those grads got are shift leader at Dairy Queen (hey, at least he was shift leader, as opposed to just shift worker). We got an associate at Waldenbooks (hey, at least the Berkeley Barnes & Nobles guy was a head*cashier. This Waldenbooks guy is just an associate). We got a sales associate at the Banana Republic (well, at least he/she gets to look at trendy clothing all day long). </p>

<p><a href="http://broncojobs.wmich.edu/Reports/04-05%20WMU%20graduate%20survey%20report.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://broncojobs.wmich.edu/Reports/04-05%20WMU%20graduate%20survey%20report.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm not saying that what you're saying is BS, but you'd never know for sure

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let's be perfectly clear here. This is not what I am saying. This is not my survey. This is Berkeley's survey. It is Berkeley's survey that is reporting back jobs like Starbucks barista. That's not my fault. I am not the one reporting these results. If you have a problem with the survey results - if you think it's BS - then perhaps you should take it up with Berkeley.</p>

<p>I am simply telling you what the report says. Don't shoot the messenger.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I will certainly call into question the accuracy of any of these survey, all of them not just UCB's, particularly in regards to the claim made from it on this thread. I have taken these surveys for my school, they send you roughly 15 emails begging you to fill them out until you finally do, and at the time you probably rush through them. Who knows what students will put/make up. Certainly there is some useful information to be taken from them but its frivolous to draw conclusions from the extreme cases, I can think of several reasons to call their truth into question.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But again, like I said, we can go either way on that. Again, it is completely unclear to me why, if people were making up fake responses, why would they want to make up fake "low" responses? Wouldn't they be just as equally likely to make up fake "high" responses? Heck, I would argue that that is just as likely, and perhaps even more so. If you're filling out a survey, and you don't want to tell the truth, then you would probably say something that is more optimistic than the reality. For example, you may report that you are going to Harvard for grad school when in fact you are doing no such thing, but just because you wish it was true. </p>

<p>Furthermore, like I said, we have to live on the data that is reported. I don't see why the Berkeley data would be any more flawed than any other salary survey data. Otherwise, there is no point in even trusting anything at all, and maybe a huge number of college grads from all schools end up at Starbucks and McDonals (after all, how would you know? That possibility might well be true, because you don't have any trustable data to argue otherwise). </p>

<p>Look, at the end of the day, as I have shown above, surveys of Berkeley English grads do make more than the average liberal arts grads (which is to be expected). Yet those Berkeley English salaries are really not that high. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And really Sakky, I do know of engineering grads that do this. I'd love to give you the address and name of the restaurants that a few of them work out to help support the rest of their family through school while paying for a mortgage, but I'll respect their confidentiality. They graduated with me, in engineering and currently work for the Army Research Lab (2) and Lockheed. You constantly refer to people you know in support of your arguments, its hypocritical for you to question these accounts from others. Just because you don't know a single engineering grad who would even think of taking a job such as this does not mean that you are right or would have any insight as to the fact that they would just work harder to get bonuses, etc.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's not what we're talking about. You are talking about working in restaurants presumably in tippable jobs. Some of those jobs are quite lucrative because of those tips. </p>

<p>But this is Starbucks we're talking about. You don't get tips there. You don't make much money there. As an engineer, frankly, if you wanted more money, you would be better off just finding a higher paying engineering job (i.e. better than "Army Research Lab" as you don't maximize your earnings while working for the government). Either that or, as I said, just working harder on your job so that you get a better bonus or a better promotion. </p>

<p>However, that's neither here nor there. Even if you took such a job, I highly doubt that you would report it as your primary occupation on your survey, and that is what we are really talking about.</p>

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<p>This has gone way off my original point. I did not imply that theres no way you would work at a starbucks graduating from a top school. Those very few who work at starbucks are generally exceptions to the rule. Maybe they are studying for LSAT, MCAT, etc. etc. I am just saying that people do not work their entire lives to end up working a job that a high school drop out would. Sure, they may be a very small percentage that do not get relatively good jobs, but that is a very small percentage, as there as exceptions to every rule, I would expect there to be exceptions to those rules as well. We generally judge by the majority.</p>

<p>I do not argue with you that there is a small probability of you ending up at a Starbucks, but it is highly unlikely. The only reason we spend so much of our lives pursuing a high education is to land a good job and live a comfortable lifestyle.
Sakky, do you have a link to this survey? I would just like to see out of curiosity how many students are working relatively crappy jobs that graduated from UCBerkeley.</p>

<p>Let me add, I am an engineering student, but work for a cellular phone reseller part-time, sure it's not the greatest job, but upon graduation I might stay there while seeking a dream job, Although it doesn't pay much, it allows me to do something I enjoy, working with technology. In which case I would surely list that as my current means of employment. Perhaps, the fellow working at Starbucks is admired there, or is in fact one of those cocky fools who speaks philosophically to the crowd, or who is well respected by his co-workers and that is why he is working there. Perhaps he is seeking a position with Starbucks Corporate and is working there because it will give him a better chance to get to know the company. Could also be working on some sort of thesis about starbucks and their business practices. </p>

<p>Sakky would agree that in this world nothing is guaranteed, As some of the greatest european doctors and professors were slaughtered in WW2, But going to a top school is pretty darn close to a guarantee of a successful career. There is no need to argue as I feel we are all taking everything out of context. Some people do everything right and still end up with the short end of the stick, but a solid education at a top-tier school minimizes the chances of that. </p>

<p>So when it comes to my original statement, I believe it is pretty safe to say that students worry too much about Investment Banking thinking that those are the only jobs where such high salaries can be made. When in reality there are tons of jobs that can offer the opportunity to make that type of money. In most cases, a good education will provide you with the skills necessary to analyze certain aspects of the industry you are in, and milk your leads for vast monetary benefits.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I don't see why the Berkeley data would be any more flawed than any other salary survey data.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I wouldn't trust any schools data as much as you do apparently. It seems as though you can warp this data any way to you want to support your argument. Sure students might lie about amazing jobs they land or put ridiculous salaries, but thats the point, if you can dream up and argue in favor of these scenarios then chances are they do exist and you have to question the surveys. I will again point out that just because these surveys are the only thing that exists on the matter, it doesn't mean that they are 100% factual, the methodology used to obtain this data could certainly be improved for more reliable data Remember, students voluntarily fill these out in their free time right before/after graduation, there emotions are all over the board with how they feel about the college/uniat this time. Who is say students don't put down bogus jobs, or secondary jobs, or report 0 salary for their job if they are remaining full time graduate students, etc. etc. </p>

<p>I absolutely agree with what RejectedFromMIT said:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Come on, use some common sense here. I'm not saying that what you're saying is BS, but you'd never know for sure

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The case of a UCB grad working at Starbucks as their primary occupation is an extreme outlier. Sure it could happen, but I'd venture to guess there is a reason behind. If a substantial number of graduates from a top university are forced into such position, can you imagine what people from lower schools are forced to do? You'd practically need a B.A. just to poor coffee for Starbucks.</p>

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<p>viennariver - As I Stated there will always be the few degenerates who did not enjoy their college experience for whatever the reason may be, and that may be the case, especially if these are anonymous surveys. Sakky is right in that life does indeed screw some people over and they are forced to take a rather mediocre job. But let's be serious if they were reporting working at a starbucks, or various similar scenarios, because they couldn't get a better job coming out of UCB, I would be skeptical as to the mental health of this individual. The individual must have an extreme flaw not to be able to find a job, graduating from one of the best schools in the country. People attend community college to avoid the embarassment of working those jobs, which leads me to believe the UCB graduate who is working at starbucks is either reporting false info purposely to taint the survey results, or needs to do some serious work on their personality.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I wouldn't trust any schools data as much as you do apparently. It seems as though you can warp this data any way to you want to support your argument. Sure students might lie about amazing jobs they land or put ridiculous salaries, but thats the point, if you can dream up and argue in favor of these scenarios then chances are they do exist and you have to question the surveys. I will again point out that just because these surveys are the only thing that exists on the matter, it doesn't mean that they are 100% factual, the methodology used to obtain this data could certainly be improved for more reliable data Remember, students voluntarily fill these out in their free time right before/after graduation, there emotions are all over the board with how they feel about the college/uniat this time. Who is say students don't put down bogus jobs, or secondary jobs, or report 0 salary for their job if they are remaining full time graduate students, etc. etc.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's not that I "trust" the data to a particularly high level.</p>

<p>Rather, it's that what we have to go with the data we got. If you want to subscribe to the theory that ALL of the data is unreliable, then consider the following situation. What if somebody asserted that MOST Berkeley graduates indeed ended up working at Starbucks (or McDonalds or Burger King or other low-end jobs). Then we would have nothing to say to counteract that assertion because, according to your logic, all of the data is unreliable anyway, so that guy's assertion might well be correct. </p>

<p>In fact, this assertion intersects with what you have stated below.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The case of a UCB grad working at Starbucks as their primary occupation is an extreme outlier

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, how would you know? If you truly believe that all of the data is unreliable anyway, then what is your basis for believe that the Starbucks guy is an outlier? In order to make such a statement, you have to inherently assume that the data is reliable. For example, maybe the Starbucks data point is actually an accurate data point and *all of the other data points are false *. In other words, maybe they are ALL working at Starbucks, and everybody (except for that one guy) is lying about it. Hey, why not? Like you said, if the data truly is unreliable, then we have no reason to believe that this isn't the case.</p>

<p>I think it is far more believable to think that the data is fairly reliable. Meaning that most Berkeley grads do not end up working at Starbucks. That also lines up with intuition. I personally don't know any Berkeley grads who ended up working at Starbucks (and I know a lot of Berkeley grads). The data shows that most English grads do indeed end up with jobs better than Starbucks.</p>

<p>But the data shows that a few grads DO end up working at Starbucks or similar such jobs. I find that highly believeable. Especially during the dotcom bust that hit the Bay Area very hard. There were plenty of highly talented people who had both degrees and experience who nonetheless found it extremely difficult to find any decent job during that time (and the survey extends to the dotcom bust period). </p>

<p>But in any case, the point stands that I don't think you need to be so conspiratorial. You keep asserting that the data is unreliable. Maybe it is. But then why would the unreliability be one-way. For example, why do you suspect that only the Starbucks data is unreliable and the rest is reliable. Maybe it's the other way around - maybe the Starbucks data is reliable and all of the non-Starbucks data is actually the unreliable data.
I see no reason to believe that unreliability would be one-way.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The case of a UCB grad working at Starbucks as their primary occupation is an extreme outlier. Sure it could happen, but I'd venture to guess there is a reason behind. If a substantial number of graduates from a top university are forced into such position, can you imagine what people from lower schools are forced to do? You'd practically need a B.A. just to poor coffee for Starbucks.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
viennariver - As I Stated there will always be the few degenerates who did not enjoy their college experience for whatever the reason may be, and that may be the case, especially if these are anonymous surveys. Sakky is right in that life does indeed screw some people over and they are forced to take a rather mediocre job. But let's be serious if they were reporting working at a starbucks, or various similar scenarios, because they couldn't get a better job coming out of UCB, I would be skeptical as to the mental health of this individual. The individual must have an extreme flaw not to be able to find a job, graduating from one of the best schools in the country. People attend community college to avoid the embarassment of working those jobs, which leads me to believe the UCB graduate who is working at starbucks is either reporting false info purposely to taint the survey results, or needs to do some serious work on their personality.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Look, guys. I don't think we need to be so judgmental as to question people's mental health or other such personal accusations. I think I can offer you a very plausible explanation for what is happening. The economy might be bad. Again, the survey data extends to 2003 during which the Bay Area was still in the throes of the tech recession/dot-com bust. The dotcom bust hit a lot of people very hard, and not because they were all degenerates or suffered from poor mental health.</p>

<p>Here are some news stories about some of the problems that people faced during that bust. Here's a guy with not only a BS in ME (from Texas A&M), but also an MBA, and yet ended up hauling packages for the Post Office for $13 an hour. There's a woman who had 7 years of experience as a marketing manager, and ended up stocking shelves at Bed, Bath, and Beyond. There's a guy who holds master's degrees from both Harvard and Columbia who ended up driving a forklift for a landscaping company. </p>

<p>*...A year ago, Jose Carlos Cavazos was enthusiastic about his new career in telecommunications and his position with Nortel Networks. Now he's throwing mail on the night shift at a U.S. Postal Service distribution center for $13 an hour.
Cavazos didn't plan to go from high-tech to blue collar. But after eight months without a job, the 37-year-old Raleigh, N.C., resident had burned through his 401(k) savings and was nearing the end of unemployment insurance. He took the postal job to pay the mortgage--even though it leaves him wanting professionally. </p>

<p>"My daughter came home yesterday with a group homework assignment and I had to write a paragraph about what I do for a living," said Cavazos, who has a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from Texas A&M University and a master's of business administration from Pfeiffer University. "Here I am throwing mail with an MBA. I was totally embarrassed. I'm just grateful that my daughter is still too young to understand how tough this is for me." *</p>

<p>...</p>

<p>*Juliette Katz spent the past seven years sharpening her resume as a marketing manager at America Online, Food.com and other Internet start-ups. She is versed in programming, account management, and customer acquisition and retention; she has led marketing campaigns for direct mail, trade shows, events, advertising, branding and positioning. </p>

<p>But the 29-year-old San Francisco resident got laid off from a dot-com in December 2000 and spent a fruitless year prowling for a similar job. Katz, who has a bachelor's degree in business administration from San Diego State University, gave up in October and landed a job shelving moisturizer and shower gels for Bath & Body Works in San Francisco. </p>

<p>"At first I was like, 'Why am I here?'" Katz said. She hadn't worked in retail since folding jeans and hanging shirts at Clothestime when she was 18. "I felt like I was in high school again. I felt like I was 16 or 18 again being told how to work, being told how to put lotion on a shelf. And now I have to deal with the public and confront shoplifters--it's almost like I'm a cop. It's a whole different set of issues." *</p>

<p>...</p>

<p>*Bob Muldoon is also losing optimism. The 42-year-old Methuen, Mass., resident got laid off in April from a quality assurance (QA) job at Tower Street, a software start-up specializing in online quote systems for insurance agents. Muldoon spent several months looking for QA jobs but couldn't get headhunters or employers to return his calls. </p>

<p>"It was quite a contrast from even a year before, when recruiters were swarming like locusts," said Muldoon, who went to prestigious prep schools and has master's degrees from Columbia and Harvard. "This time, the phone was just dead--so much so that I checked the batteries on the answering machine whenever I came home because there were never messages...I was feeling bored, and there was this sense of purposelessness. I had no moorings." </p>

<p>A friend of a friend offered Muldoon a job driving a forklift, hauling mulch and "spraying green slime" for Massachusetts Hydroseed. He took the job in July and has been fertilizing lawns ever since. The job keeps him on a regular schedule, which he deadpans is "better than waking up and picking the lint out of my belly button." But he wonders when he'll snag another white-collar job * </p>

<p>The</a> world of the laid-off techie | Tech News on ZDNet</p>

<p>Are these people all a bunch of degenerates who have poor mental health? I don't think so. I think these are just people who were caught in a bad economy. After all, these are all people with degrees AND strong work experience, yet even they were reduced to menial jobs. Imagine how it must have been for people who were just graduating from college at the time. </p>

<p>But that's all part and parcel to my story. A bad economy can come at any time. You never know when the econony will turn bad. And in particular, you never know if the economy will be bad by the time you graduate. Some people are lucky to graduate when the economy is strong. Others have the misfortune of graduating when the economy is terrible. If you happen to graduate when the economy is bad, you may get stuck being forced to take a menial job. That's life.</p>

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<p>Sakky, a bad economy when you graduate, etc do make a difference. If a large no of graduates of reputed programs end up at the post office etc I would be sanguine and attribute it to the bad economy. But when you hear of the occasional guy who works at Starbucks after a degree from Harvard or MIT etc you will have to wonder: is he writing the Great American Novel, finding himself (like Larry Darrell in Somerset Maugham's Razor's Edge who deliberately sought to work in a coal mine to clear his mind) or mental health. Mental health is a valid issue. I have patient right now who is a chemical engineer from MIT, young, had a promising job, first psychotic break, is now part time at a clerical temp job.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
What if somebody asserted that MOST Berkeley graduates indeed ended up working at Starbucks (or McDonalds or Burger King or other low-end jobs). Then we would have nothing to say to counteract that assertion

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But the data doesn't even come remotely close to saying that. If you take away the outliers on both ends of the spectrum, the data presented makes logical sense, some grads get great stuff some get crappier stuff, this scenario you present doesn't. </p>

<p>I tend to think that the majority of the data is extremely useful. I would venture to guess that the average salary reported is probably pretty close to what it actually is because the outliers most likely balance each other out, just as you claim. I probably agree with that, but will again assert that its useless to attempt to draw conclusions based off these outliers.</p>

<p>I guess my problem with your whole argument is that you seem to make this seem like it is normal for students from the top 1% of universities in the world to take jobs high schoolers with no education could do. Its not. It is not normal for someone with masters from 2 ivy league schools to be operating a forklift. These cases are the extremes and I am willing to bet most have back-stories as to why they occured in the first place.</p>

<p>Otherwise the job market would be so bleak when the economy stumbles that you'd apparently need PhDs and Nobel Peace Prizes to get a job that doesn't involve physical labor or retail. But then who would be able to buy stuff, so I guess retail is out of the question. If masters from 2 ivies can't get you a job, what can? This just seems ridiculous to me, and I'm sorry I have no survey/link to support these claims, but its just not what happens on average. It is kinda useless/not entertaining to sit here and debate the extreme cases.</p>

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<p>It is rare to hear of those scenarios. I understand that life can indeed be a *****, and things can get tough for anyone, regardless the rigor of one's education. However, it is safe to say that at this point in time, those are extreme cases, and would not be the case under normal circumstances. </p>

<p>I don't believe that Sakky is attempting to refute that; he is merely stating that those are what some people have to resort to when times get rough. Society would love if that isn't the case, but the unfortunate truth is it does indeed occur. An average run of the mill couple may circumvent to substandard circumstances, whatever the reason may be. It happens, it's a part of life. It's substantially difficult to refute that. What's the old saying? Ahh... "life is a *****. " </p>

<p>Therefore, I do think it is safe to say, it is feasible, yet highly unlikely.</p>

38

<p>
[quote]
But the data doesn't even come remotely close to saying that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But if you, as you asserted before, don't believe in the data anyway, then it doesn't really matter what the data says, right? That's my point. Hence, we would have no reason NOT to believe that most Berkeley students don't end up at Starbucks. After all, if there is no believable data to be had, then we have no reason not to believe the worst-case scenario. </p>

<p>
[quote]

If you take away the outliers on both ends of the spectrum, the data presented makes logical sense, some grads get great stuff some get crappier stuff, this scenario you present doesn't.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But see, that's where I have to disagree. You're basically now cherry-picking the data, in that you're picking the parts of the data that you like and ignoring what you don't like. You can't do that. You can't just say "Well, I believe in certain data points, but I don't believe in the others." If you are going to believe in the dataset, then you have to accept all of the data. Otherwise, you can choose to believe in none of the dataset, but then that means that you can't discount the notion that most Berkeley students end up at Starbucks (in that you wouldn't have any data that you believe in that shows otherwise). </p>

<p>Look, you can't have it both ways. Either you believe in the data or you don't. If you truly don't believe in the data, then you can't then invoke the data in your later arguments. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I guess my problem with your whole argument is that you seem to make this seem like it is normal for students from the top 1% of universities in the world to take jobs high schoolers with no education could do. Its not. It is not normal for someone with masters from 2 ivy league schools to be operating a forklift. These cases are the extremes and I am willing to bet most have back-stories as to why they occured in the first place.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First off, when have I ever said that these stories were the norm? I have never asserted such a thing. If you disagree, please point to the quote where I specifically said that these stories represented the norm. </p>

<p>Look, the truth of the matter is that I don't believe these stories are the norm, and I have never said they were. Obviously these people are exceptions. I have never asserted otherwise. The survey data clearly shows that they are exceptions, in that the vast majority of Berkeley English grads do not end up in low-end jobs. The ZDnet news article also clearly states that the people they are reporting about are exceptions. They are newsworthy exceptions, but they are still exceptions. </p>

<p>My point is simply to show that some people who graduate from top schools nonetheless end up in low-end jobs. Sure, it's only a small percentage of people. But it DOES happen. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Otherwise the job market would be so bleak when the economy stumbles that you'd apparently need PhDs and Nobel Peace Prizes to get a job that doesn't involve physical labor or retail. But then who would be able to buy stuff, so I guess retail is out of the question. If masters from 2 ivies can't get you a job, what can? This just seems ridiculous to me, and I'm sorry I have no survey/link to support these claims, but its just not what happens on average. It is kinda useless/not entertaining to sit here and debate the extreme cases.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, I am not talking about what happens on average. I am simply interested in showing what can POSSIBLY happen. In particular, I am showing that just because you graduate from a top school, you are not automatically guaranteed to get a good job. Will you probably get a good job? Yeah, probably. But not guaranteed.</p>

39

<p>
[quote]
Sakky, a bad economy when you graduate, etc do make a difference. If a large no of graduates of reputed programs end up at the post office etc I would be sanguine and attribute it to the bad economy. But when you hear of the occasional guy who works at Starbucks after a degree from Harvard or MIT etc you will have to wonder: is he writing the Great American Novel, finding himself (like Larry Darrell in Somerset Maugham's Razor's Edge who deliberately sought to work in a coal mine to clear his mind) or mental health. Mental health is a valid issue. I have patient right now who is a chemical engineer from MIT, young, had a promising job, first psychotic break, is now part time at a clerical temp job.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You guys just seem overly obsessed with mental health. Look, nobody disputes that there are some people that truly have mental health problems.</p>

<p>But on the other hand, come on, when the economy is bad (like it was in 2001-2003 with the tech economy bust and then 9/11), that doesn't mean that EVERYBODY, or even most people can't find good jobs. After all, even in the deepest throes of that tech recession, the overall unemployment rate never exceeded 6-7%, which means that the vast majority of laborers still had jobs. Nor do those jobs mean low-end jobs. For example, again, in the tech bust, most technology people still had tech jobs. For example, when the datacom networking giant Cisco Systems laid off 8500 workers in the year 2002, that still left them with 35000 workers. Hence, most Cisco employees kept their job. True, many of the dotcoms completely disappeared, hence laying everybody off. But the fact of the matter is that the total number of people employed at the dotcoms even at the height of the boom was not really that large in the grand scheme of things, simply because each individual dotcom didn't employ that many people. {For example, I believe I read somewhere that the total number of people employed at all of the dotcoms that went bankrupt combined was still not as large as the workforce of just one tech company: IBM.} </p>

<p>The point is, even when the economy is bad, most well-educated people will still have good jobs. Only a minority won't. The problem, of course, is that you don't know if you will end up in that minority. </p>

<p>So please, guys, stop trying to blame poor jobs on bad mental health. Sure, I agree that poor mental health will explain what happens to some people. But other factors have more explanatory power. A bad economy is one such factor. There are others, i.e. having poor social skills (and hence doing poorly in interviews).</p>

40

<p>
[quote]
After all, if there is no believable data to be had, then we have no reason not to believe the worst-case scenario.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>We have logic. If I run an experiment that tells me the gravitational constant is 106 m/s^2 am I to believe it? If a student hits a bad run of luck at a bad time, then maybe they are stuck with an awful job, but like we have both stated this isn't the norm. And frankly, I am not concerned that this could happen, because I know it could happen, I just dont want people to think its the norm, and as I will point below I think some points that have been made in this thread confuse this issue.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Look, you can't have it both ways. Either you believe in the data or you don't.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is not true at all. All experimental methods have flaws to them, and you can certainly justify throwing out data points. I along with all of my colleagues throw out data points all the time in research. If we run an experiment and something comes out weird or just doesn't feel right we have the right/obligation to question the validity of its results. Common sense goes a long way, if you run tests that produces a result far from the norm chances are something went wrong along the way and that data point is getting tossed. </p>

<p>This idea may not easily be translated to a survey of this nature because its impossible to decipher good points from bad points. If 10 students take this survey and 2 of them lie, we should certainly throw out those 2 data points. I realize its impossible to filter these out since the person giving the survey has no control over the person who actually takes it, but I assert that logic can go a long way here. It just doesn't make sense for graduates from such an elite university resigning to high school jobs on a regular basis. </p>

<p>
[quote]
First off, when have I ever said that these stories were the norm? I have never asserted such a thing. If you disagree, please point to the quote where I specifically said that these stories represented the norm.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ok, from post #11</p>

<p>
[quote]
Yet the truth of the matter is, plenty of Berkeley grads end up in jobs that are, frankly, rather mediocre

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I realize you never define what you mean by mediocre jobs. But in the same post you go on to say</p>

<p>
[quote]
For example, take a gander at some of the jobs reported by the Berkeley students who graduated with degrees in English. While some of the jobs are arguably great, others probably are not. For example, there was one person who ended up as the head cashier at Barnes & Nobles (hey, at least it was headcashier, right?). Another person ended up as a barista at Starbucks - basically, the person at the counter ringing you up and making your coffees for you. Another ended up as a lumber yard puller (basically a guy who moves logs and planks around). You also have the assorted receptionists, waitresses, bar staff, file clerks, and so on.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You pull these examples without differentiating between a mediocore job and bad job, so it could easily be interpretted that you were refering to these jobs when you said "plenty" of grads take mediocore stuff. Describing something with the word plenty doesn't make me think you are far from what is normal.</p>

<p>We can sit here and argue about the semantics of these adjectives or what you were trying to say, but I'd rather not. I just don't want someone reading this thread to think its normal for these events to occur, and I think some posts confuse the issue and make it seem as though they are normal, such as post 11</p>