Engineering major first then go into investment banking

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[quote]
We have logic. If I run an experiment that tells me the gravitational constant is 106 m/s^2 am I to believe it? If a student hits a bad run of luck at a bad time, then maybe they are stuck with an awful job, but like we have both stated this isn't the norm. And frankly, I am not concerned that this could happen, because I know it could happen, I just dont want people to think its the norm, and as I will point below I think some points that have been made in this thread confuse this issue.

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<p>Again, I have never claimed that it was 'the norm'. </p>

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This is not true at all. All experimental methods have flaws to them, and you can certainly justify throwing out data points. I along with all of my colleagues throw out data points all the time in research. If we run an experiment and something comes out weird or just doesn't feel right we have the right/obligation to question the validity of its results.

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<p>Yeah, but think about what you're doing. Effectively, you are cherry-picking your results. </p>

<p>Now, don't me wrong. I too have thrown away data points. But doing so has to be based on a far stronger justification than "it just doesn't feel right". If I feel that I want to throw away a data point, I have to carefully examine exactly how that data point came to be created, and if I can find nothing untoward with the procedure that got me that data point, then it is, frankly, scientifically unethical to throw it out just because I feel like throwing it out. Doing so basically means that you're massaging your data to get the result that you want. </p>

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but I assert that logic can go a long way here. It just doesn't make sense for graduates from such an elite university resigning to high school jobs on a regular basis.

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<p>Now, see, there's the problem right there. You talk about how logic goes a long way, and how it doesn't such data points just don't "make sense". </p>

<p>Then if that's the case, why even bother to run surveys at all? After all, if you already "know" what your data is supposed to look like, and/or you already "know" what the logic is supposed to tell you, then what's the point of even having a survey, especially if you're just going to throw away the data points that don't conform to your "logic" anyway? Are you running the survey just for the comfort of self-confirmation? You just want the survey to validate what you already believe, but if it doesn't, then you'll just ignore the survey? </p>

<p>If that's the game we're playing, then I don't know why we even bother with the survey at all. </p>

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[quote]
You pull these examples without differentiating between a mediocore job and bad job, so it could easily be interpretted that you were refering to these jobs when you said "plenty" of grads take mediocore stuff. Describing something with the word plenty doesn't make me think you are far from what is normal.</p>

<p>We can sit here and argue about the semantics of these adjectives or what you were trying to say, but I'd rather not. I just don't want someone reading this thread to think its normal for these events to occur, and I think some posts confuse the issue and make it seem as though they are normal, such as post 11

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<p>And that's why I actually included a link to the raw data itself, so that people can make their own determination of what is mediocre/bad and what isn't, and what is 'plenty' and what isn't. </p>

<p>I believe that plenty of Berkeley English grads do indeed end up in mediocre jobs. Is it the norm? No, I never said it was. I said it was plenty. And the fact is, it is plenty. I count up all of the receptionists, bar staff, file clerks, as well as of course the Starbucks barista, the lumber puller, the Barnes & Nobles guy, and all such similar people, and I end up with a sum that I think qualifies as 'plenty'. I think it also should be pointed out that the average Berkeley English grad in 2006 made 36k a year, which isn't starvation wages, but also ain't that great either. True, it is better than the average starting salary for all liberal arts grads nationwide in 2006 (who made 33K), but it still isn't really THAT good when you consider the fact that Berkeley is clearly a top-ranked school. </p>

<p>Now, people are obviously free to disagree with my adjectives, and that's why I encourage people to look at the data for themselves and make up their own mind. Is 36k really that good a salary for a Berkeley grad in 2006? Draw your own conclusion.</p>

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[quote]
Now, don't me wrong. I too have thrown away data points. But doing so has to be based on a far stronger justification than "it just doesn't feel right"

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<p>No one is throwing anything out over a feeling, I said you have to question the validity of the results, which is done regardless if you have perfect data or terrible data, this doesn't imply throwing anything out.</p>

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I have to carefully examine exactly how that data point came to be created, and if I can find nothing untoward with the procedure that got me that data point, then it is, frankly, scientifically unethical to throw it out just because I feel like throwing it out

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<p>Thats exactly right. And we have discussed the possibility of procedural problems associated with this "experiment", thus the data can't be perceived as absolute truth, nor should it be completely rejected. We just have to be more careful about drawing conclusions from such a data set.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Then if that's the case, why even bother to run surveys at all? After all, if you already "know" what your data is supposed to look like, and/or you already "know" what the logic is supposed to tell you, then what's the point of even having a survey, especially if you're just going to throw away the data points that don't conform to your "logic" anyway?

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<p>I'm not just throwing them out, simply calling them into question, and if I came across as saying that I'm sorry. I seriously question how many able students are forced into these positions without the detriment of outside factors. The results presented to us will never tell us why they took these job, which means we can only speculate. I tend to be of the opinion that its a small enough minority that I wont be losing any sleep over it.</p>

<p>Sakky, are you really up at 3.30 am writing this stuff? In post 8 you assert that major does not matter for Ibanking, in post 11 you assert that some majors won't do well. How to reconcile this? You might say you are referring to just Ibanking.</p>

<p>Not true. I know a recent former CEO of the world's foremost consulting firm and this is what he had to say: if an art history major applied for a job we will ask why he/she studied art, why now consulting? Focus is important. We are more likely to employ an IEOR or applied math grad who has shown a track record of ECs in campus consulting clubs than an art history major who wanted to join us after failing to get a job at the Met. The days of hiring any major from Harvard are gone, the supply is now greater, from India and China etc, than the demand.Yes, you will find us hiring art history majors but fewer than IEOR etc. Among the excellent we look for excellence.</p>

<p>Mental health aside, agree with you this would be exception, graduating from a top college guarantees nothing. Better odds yes but a majority of Harvard grads would end up working at ordinary jobs, the anthropology major or the classics major etc. Here is one kind of proof: the PhD from Harvard gets a faculty job at a lesser known univ, there is a downward drift, now apply that phenomenon to the first undergrad degree.</p>

<p>You people don't realize, what has been is not what will be. In the past, the Harvard art history grad was fine because no one bothered about the grads from India and China. Today, for example, getting into MBA programs, the top ones, is very very difficult because a sizeable no of applicants come from other countries. As diversity becomes more and more important in the classroom learning experience and on the job, McKinsey and Bain and others are scouring the world from Brazil to S.Africa for talent. As more and more revenues are generated overseas, these companies need natives to run their show. </p>

<p>As Friedman puts it (World is Flat) and I use some liberty, the HYP grad is more likely to be giving haircuts as most americans will be in the service economy that will be the US. I think even those jobs will be outsourced, the Chinese will ship us some gadget that will trim the hair as we drive to work, so the HYP grads will probably be at STarbucks.</p>

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No one is throwing anything out over a feeling, I said you have to question the validity of the results, which is done regardless if you have perfect data or terrible data, this doesn't imply throwing anything out.

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<p>Actually, I think the validity of the results are actually strengthened by those outliers. After all, every statistical data set ought to have some outliers. A data set that has no outliers is one that has probably been cleansed by somebody and is therefore suspicious. </p>

<p>Think about what that means in this context. If no low-hanging outliers existed, then that would mean that not a single Berkeley English grad ended up with a low-end job. Not even one. I find that hard to believe. I certainly agree that most of them would not end up with such a job. But not even one? English is one of the biggest majors at Berkeley, so to think that not even one of them would get stuck with a bad job strikes me as suspicious. </p>

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I seriously question how many able students are forced into these positions without the detriment of outside factors. The results presented to us will never tell us why they took these job, which means we can only speculate.

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<p>Look, I agree that it's probably a matter of outside forces. A bad economy is the first important outside force that I think about. As I said above, you never know when a bad economy is going to hit. Other forces could be personal qualities, like having poor social skills. They may also well include that mental health characteristic that some people here keep bringing up.</p>

<p>But all of that simply reinforces my basic point, which is that you CAN graduate with a degree from a top school and nevertheless end up in a low-end job like Starbucks, or end up like that guy with the MBA who ended up hauling boxes at the post office. That DOES happen. Is that the norm? No, I don't think it's the norm. The data does not indicate that it is not the norm. But it does happen, and it happens enough times that I think it is important to bring up. </p>

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In post 8 you assert that major does not matter for Ibanking, in post 11 you assert that some majors won't do well. How to reconcile this? You might say you are referring to just Ibanking.

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<p>It's quite simple to reconcile. Ibanking doesn't really care much about what you major in. They care mostly about what school you graduate from. Nevertheless, most people in any major at any school, even Harvard, are not going to get an Ibanking offer. </p>

<p>Hence, because most people are not going to get an Ibanking offer, you have to look at what MOST people in a particular major end up with. And the truth is, most English majors end up with jobs that pay significantly less than most engineering majors. I don't think this is a particularly controversial point. I think we all know this to be true. Sure, the few English majors who can get Ibanking offers will make far more than most engineers (at least, the ones who didn't ALSO get Ibanking offers). But like I said, most English majors won't get an Ibanking offer. </p>

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[quote]
Not true. I know a recent former CEO of the world's foremost consulting firm and this is what he had to say: if an art history major applied for a job we will ask why he/she studied art, why now consulting?

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<p>Then perhaps he should explain why is it that McKinsey makes such a big showing of hiring people from a wide range of majors. And not just McKinsey. BCG, Bain, BAH, do the same. The same is also true in investment banking. </p>

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Focus is important. We are more likely to employ an IEOR or applied math grad who has shown a track record of ECs in campus consulting clubs than an art history major who wanted to join us after failing to get a job at the Met.

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<p>Uh, no, you've just poisoned the comparison. You can't compare the best to the worst. The fair comparison would be to compare the art history major who ALSO has a strong track record of EC's in campus consulting clubs and who has actually shown a strong desire to work in consulting, rather than it being his second choice.</p>

<p>Otherwise, I can also offer a poisoned comparison. I can choose to talk about the IEOR guy who has never bothered to develop any social skills and doesn't even shower regularly (I know a few IEOR's that are like this), who has never displayed an interest in consulting, and is talking to consulting firms now just because he couldn't get into the IEOR PhD program that he really wanted. I could compare that guy to a highly suave and articulate art history guy who actually has summer consulting internship experience and has extensive consulting EC work. I think we can agree that that's also an unfairly poisoned comparison. Just like yours was unfair.</p>

<p>We have to compare 'like to like'. </p>

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The days of hiring any major from Harvard are gone, the supply is now greater, from India and China etc, than the demand.Yes, you will find us hiring art history majors but fewer than IEOR etc. Among the excellent we look for excellence.

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<p>Are they gone? Seems to me that the Harvard grads don't seem to think so, even in the off-the-wall majors. Seems to me that they do quite well when it comes to consulting recruiting. </p>

<p>As far as India and China are concerned, frankly, I have never seen any true Indians or Chinese being hired in large quantities by these consulting firms. What I mean is that I am obviously not counting Chinese-Americans or Indian-Americans, or those Chinese or Indian foreign nationals who did actually went to school in the US. I am talking about actual Chinese or Indians straight from China or India. Are consulting firms really hiring these people and shipping them over to work on American consulting engagements? Not really. Obviously, they are hiring them to work on projects in Asia. But as of yet, they aren't hiring them in large quantities to bring them to the US. </p>

<p>As to why not, I think it's an interesting question. I think it has a lot to do with cultural familiarity. Somebody from China or India who has never spent a day in his life in the US is not going to understand US cultural norms. Consulting is a highly customer-facing activity, and so you don't want to put somebody in front of the customer who is not culturally attuned to the environment. I think that's why it doesn't really happen. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, I suspect that in the future, what you are talking about may indeed happen. In fact, I have always questioned the consulting business model in which Americans get paid huge amounts of money for work that a bunch of Indians could probably do for much less. But what can I say? It is what it is.</p>

<p>Sakky, good points. But more IEOR majors from Princeton or Columbia end up in the consulting jobs than art history majors irrespective of ECs. I do think while all majors are hired, IEOR majors, like FE majors would have an edge.</p>

<p>Yes, I did engage in false comparisons. RE Chinese and Indians, previously even for Asia-specific jobs, Americans would be shipped out, now they are being taken by Asians, and Pepsi and McKInsey (Rajat Gupta) hired Indians who were educated in India, slowly as the market pool widens Americans will have fewer opportunities.</p>

<p>
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But more IEOR majors from Princeton or Columbia end up in the consulting jobs than art history majors irrespective of ECs. I do think while all majors are hired, IEOR majors, like FE majors would have an edge.

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<p>But I would ask how much of this is simply a matter of personal desire? Let's face it. A lot of people who major in art history simply don't want to become consultants. They actually want to become art curators (or whatever it is that art history guys do). On the other hand, I would argue that IEOR (and FE) people are disproportionately money-oriented. After all, why put up with the difficulty of studying IEOR or FE and instead major in something easy unless you are interested in the money? Money-oriented people are precisely the kind of people who would be most interested in a high-paying job like consulting. {In contrast, it is entirely possible that many art history students happen to come from rich families and therefore know they don't need to care about making money. I can think of an art history student who was already a millionaire from a trust fund set up from her rich family.} </p>

<p>
[quote]
Yes, I did engage in false comparisons. RE Chinese and Indians, previously even for Asia-specific jobs, Americans would be shipped out, now they are being taken by Asians, and Pepsi and McKInsey (Rajat Gupta) hired Indians who were educated in India, slowly as the market pool widens Americans will have fewer opportunities.

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<p>First of all, Rajat Gupta is not a good example of what you are talking about, but rather a good example of what I am talking about. He didn't become a consultant while he was still in India. He went to IIT-Delhi, but he didn't get hired into consulting at that point. Instead, he had to get his MBA from Harvard Business School. Only then did McKinsey hire him, and placed him in their NY office. </p>

<p>And that's precisely what I'm talking about. Consulting firms are not hiring Indians directly from India and then immediately placing them onto US consulting engagements. I agree that they are hiring Indians directly from India to work on Indian engagements. And I of course also agree that Indians who are already in the US (whether because they are Indian-Americans or Indian immigrants who attend a US school, usually an elite US business school) will get hired to work on US engagements. However, at this time, I am not aware of many Indians who are taken directly from India to work on a US project. </p>

<p>Look, don't get me wrong. Maybe in the future, this will change. In fact, sometimes I think it should change. In particular, I think it should probably change for Ibanking. Like I said, I have always wondered why Ibanks will pay Americans with just bachelor's degrees 150k right out of school for work that is really not that complicated (although there is just a lot of it, hence 100 hour workweeks), when they could just hire a bunch of cheap Indians instead. Pay for the top private equity and hedge fund jobs for MBA's are, I hear, are exceeding 500k a year just to start. Again, why not just hire a whole bunch of cheap Indians instead? </p>

<p>Nevertheless, it's not up to me. I'm not the one making those decisions. All I can do is tell you is what those decisions are. Don't blame me for those decisions. </p>

<p>However, to your point, as to whether Americans will have fewer opportunities overall due to globalization, this is highly unclear to me. For example, again, let's talk about India. As I'm sure you know quite well, India is expanding rapidly economically because of globalization. And yes, many native-born Indians are obviously taking consulting opportunities in India. But the kicker is, those opportunities would not have existed in the first place were it not for globalization. What that means is that those Indians (through globalization) are not really reducing opportunities for Americans, because those opportunities would never have existed in the first place without globalization. </p>

<p>The analogy would be 'growing the pie'. The economic "pie" of India is growing. Indians are capturing the benefits of the new growth. Hence, they're eating the extra pie. But that doesn't mean that Americans get less pie. They get the same pie as they always had. There's just more pie to go around. </p>

<p>In fact, this gets down to a general truism of free trade and free markets. Free markets and free trade tends to expand growth for all * parties. Both India *and the US benefits from globalization. For example, as India grows, that produces greater opportunities for US companies to export products to Indians. As Indians reduce the costs of worldwide call-centers and software development, that produces opportunities for US companies to redirect their investments to other areas, like product design, or to even get a company started in the first place. {For example, the first version of the popular social networking website MyYearBook.com was developed cheaply in India. The founders of the company, who were just 2 US high school students, have stated that if they didn't have access to cheap Indian programmers, they probably couldn't have afforded to start the company at all.} </p>

<p>Now, of course when I say that a country"benefits", that doesn't mean that everybody in that country benefits. Free trade tends to benefit an economy overall, but some people will inevitably lose out. Some Americans will lose out on free trade. But so will some Indians. For example, I am quite certain that many Indians do not really want completely free trade with the US. For example, I'm sure that most Indian shopkeepers and retailers do not want to allow completely free trade with the US and therefore allow hyper-efficient US retailers like Walmart and Costco into India, because they are naturally afraid that they won't be able to compete. Or take banking. Even after 15 years of extensive liberalization, India still heavily restricts the activities of foreign banks. I'm sure that many Indian bankers do not really want to compete against foreign banks because they know they would lose their jobs. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, the point is that while some people inevitably lose because of globalization, others win and the overall pie will grow. Whether Americans will have fewer opportunities in consulting because of globalization is unclear. I'm sure some US consulting opportunities may disappear. But others will appear. For example, consider the problem of a US company who sells and markets for the US market. But it manufactures its products in China. It designs its products in Taiwan and Korea. The backend software development and call-center work is done in India. Hence, this company has to orchestrate all these disparate worldwide operations to produce a product that will succeed in the US market. I would argue that that's an excellent consulting opportunity for savvy Americans, i.e. those Americans who are familiar with global operations but also have great cultural affinity with the US (and therefore know how to sell to Americans).</p>

<p>Can internationals who got their Bachelors in the US easily get a working visa and work in the US after college?..</p>

<p>sakky, once again very good points. You are correct, art hist majors may select themselves out of consulting jobs much like IEORs will self-select into them. When I referred to Indira Nooyi and Gupta I was thinking of basic undergrad educ in India; of course, your point is very pertinent, no Indian comes to head a prominent operation here straight from an Indian college or even Indian company.</p>

<p>In fact, much like you suggest it may not work out to hire Indians to do jobs cheaply because a) cultural fit b) language and nuance issues c) communication problems in getting them to understand what is really expected, etc etc. So cheap Indian labor may in fact become expensive!</p>

<p>The only difference I may have with you is you seem to subscribe to the belief that what's past will repeat itself. Creative destruction, as industries wither or get exported, new ones crop up to take their place, the "pie" example. Don't be too sure. Right now the Indians and Chinese are not creating value, just making things. Soon they will create value. From steel to pharma to cars America is losing its dominance. Throw in demographics, increased Hispanic population, slowing down of immigration to the US from Asia (at least the smart Asians are not coming in at the same rate as before)national debt, etc I opine that the American century which began at Suez ended in Baghdad (maybe Saigon?).</p>

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The only difference I may have with you is you seem to subscribe to the belief that what's past will repeat itself. Creative destruction, as industries wither or get exported, new ones crop up to take their place, the "pie" example.

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<p>Well, obviously nobody knows what is going to happen in the future. But I would just say that I have history strongly on my side. New industries have *always * cropped up in the past to replace old industries. For example, the modern biotechnology industry didn't even exist until a few decades ago. {I am not counting old food-based "biotechnology" like beer/winemaking or yogurt or cheese making, which has obviously been around for centuries.} Heck, even the Internet, while existing in some form since the early 1970's, didn't become a significant business opportunity until perhaps 15 years ago. Internet behemoths like Google are less than 10 years old, and Facebook is less than 4 years old. The first modern (that is, 2G) cellphone network was built less than 20 years ago. Hence, the point is, creative destruction has happened repeatedly in the past, and I don't see why that would stop happening now. History is on my side. </p>

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Right now the Indians and Chinese are not creating value, just making things. Soon they will create value. From steel to pharma to cars America is losing its dominance.

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<p>But here, I disagree with the premise. If China and India start actually creating more value-add, why would that necessarily be a bad thing for the US. The whole world would then become richer, including Americans. </p>

<p>I'll give you some examples. If I am suffering from diabetes, I don't care who discovers the insulin that will save my life. I just want somebody in the world to discover it. And in fact, insulin was discovered not by Americans, but by Canadians at the University of Toronto (who won the Nobel Prize for their efforts). Is America "worse off" because insulin was discovered by foreigners? I don't think so - in fact, I think America (along with the rest of the world is better off. Hundreds of thousands of American diabetes sufferers, as well as millions around the world, are better off because Canadians discovered insulin. Everybody is better off.</p>

<p>I am not just talking about basic research. Similarly, many of the best technologies and business models today are already not developed in the US. For example, when I said the first modern cellphone network was built less than 20 years ago, that network was developed not in the US, but in Finland. Europeans have been the pioneers of cellphone technology. In fact, I think it is a well known fact that Europe (as well as Japan and Korea) have far more advanced cellphone technologies than does the US. But again, does that make the US worse off? Again, I don't think so. American cellphone firms have been able to learn from the Europeans, Japanese and Koreans to make their technology better, with immense benefits to America. Similarly, American consumers have greatly benefitted from the immense increases in quality and reliability of Japanese car manufacturers. Not only have Toyota and Honda pioneered lean manufacturing techniques to produce highly reliable cars, but US car manufacturers have incorporated those techniques to greatly improve their reliability (i.e. American-made cars today are far far more reliable than they were 30 years ago). Again, this has proven to be immensely beneficial to American consumers, as I now need not worry about my car always breaking down. </p>

<p>The point is, I don't see why, if India and China indeed start moving up the economic value chain to become richer, that would be a bad thing for the US. I would think that would be a great thing for everybody. That would mean that those 2 countries would be producing more inventions, more technologies, more useful products, and therefore creating greater wealth for all.</p>

<p>Let me give you a historical analogy. Would you rather be the average British citizen today, or the average British citizen of 150 years ago? 150 years ago, the British Empire ruled the world. On the other hand, the average British citizen didn't live a particularly pleasant life. The term 'Dickensian' described the misery that a lot of average British people felt in their lives. Many were poor, unhealthy (i.e. the UK was absolutely filthy with industrial pollution at the time) and desperate. Now, to be fair, most of the world at that time was also poor and desperate (as most people in the world in the 1800's were impoverished peasants). Nevertheless, the point is, the average Brit in those days lived far worse lives than they do today, despite the fact that the UK is no longer a superpower. General world technological and economic growth in the last 150 years has improved the conditions of the average person everywhere, including in the UK. If India and China rise up, that means that world growth will necessarily increase. This is not a zero-sum game here.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Throw in demographics, increased Hispanic population, slowing down of immigration to the US from Asia (at least the smart Asians are not coming in at the same rate as before)national debt, etc I opine that the American century which began at Suez ended in Baghdad (maybe Saigon?).

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<p>Again, here I would argue that America does not need to be the world's superpower in order for the conditions of the average American to improve. The UK, France, Germany - all of these countries used to have superpower status in the past, but no longer. Yet the average citizen of those countries is better off now than they were back then. Does any French citizen really want to go back to living like the average French citizen of the days of Napoleon or Louis XIV? </p>

<p>Secondly, to your points regarding the 'weaknesses' of the US and hence loss of 'dominance' (which as I have argued, isn't very important anyway), I would still say that overall, the US has tremendous strengths that will probably allow it to maintain its dominance for a long time. For example, you point to demographics and to increasing Hispanic immigration. I don't think that is a bad thing for the US. In fact, overall it's probably a good thing. After all, not to sound jingoistic, not just any Hispanic is trying to immigrate. Those who are trying to immigrate are the ones who are young and energetic and willing to work. I would agree with you that if we were just attracting Hispanics who don't want to work at all and just want to come here to go on welfare, then that would indeed be a problem. But the vast majority of those that come here actually intend to work. {In fact, business commentators in Mexico have complained that too many of the hardest-working workers are trying to emigrate to the US, leaving the lazier ones in Mexico}. Is is precisely that constant influx of energetic, hard-working group of people that spurs US economic growth. Granted, the US needs some sort of immigration reform in order to incorporate all of the illegal immigrants who are here now, but the fact is, the US is still clearly strong enough economically to make Hispanics want to move to the US to work. {I would be far far more concerned if Hispanics *didn't *want to come here, as that would mean that the US must have a truly weak economy.}</p>

<p>As point in contrast, consider the 'challengers' to US dominance. Japan has practically no immigration and is now facing a demographic crisis as Japan is producing relatively few children and consequently the population is aging dramatically. It is estimated that by 2050, not only will Japan have significantly declined in population (as few new children will have replaced those who died) but nearly half of the population will be retired, which will imply a large decline in Japanese economic output. Furthermore, Japanese culture is notoriously hermetic and xenophobic towards outsiders, meaning that Japan is highly unlikely to be able to harmonoiously accept a large influx of foreigners. {For example, the relatively few ethnic minorities in Japan such as the Koreans and Chinese suffer from pervasive social discrimination.} Will Japan be able to change that? Perhaps. But it's going to be difficult.</p>

<p>The same thing is true, to a lesser extent, of the EU. Most EU countries, especially the richer ones, also face the same aging/demographic problem that Japan does due to low birthrates and difficulties in assimilating immigrants. Granted, there is a lot of *intra*EU migration going on, as EU citizens from the poorer East move to the West. But immigration from, say, Russia or Ukraine, or from Africa and the Middle East is far less accepted. {For example, Germans have had great difficulty in assimilating Turks, and the French have had problems assimilating immigrants from North Africa.} Furthermore, more importantly, growth rates of the EU have simply not kept pace with that in the US, and certainly not with China or India. </p>

<p>To be sure, some bright spots in the EU certainly shine. For example, Ireland has been one of the great turnaround stories of the last 15 years and now possesses one of the most dynamic economies in the world. London has solidified its status as a leading center in world finance and commerce, and is arguably even more prominent than is NYC in certain respects when it comes to high-end finance. Spain has experienced strong economic growth for many years now. Germany seems to be catching a strong second wind right now and France, under a new President, is attempting to enact economic reforms. </p>

<p>Having said all that, I would still say that I don't think that the EU will seriously challenge the US when it comes to 'dominance'. The EU still suffers from too many structural problems and individual economic laggards. Don't get me wrong - I think the EU will be a very strong #2 for a long time. But I don't think it will actually challenge for #1. {And yes, I am aware that, strictly speaking, the EU as a whole actually has a slightly larger GDP than does the US, but that's only because the EU keeps increasing its membership. When I say "#1", I mean on a more integrated level that includes not just economic influence, but also political and military influence on the world.} </p>

<p>Which leaves us with China and India. So let's take them in turn. We al know about China's breakneck economic growth. But China - because of its one-child policy - is also facing a serious demographic problem as China's population is also rapidly aging. Again, it has been estimated that by 2050, a significant proportion of the Chinese population will be retired. Couple that with the fact that China *needs*breakneck economic growth in order to head off a political crisis. The Chinese Communist Party is betting that it can produce enough economic growth to provide jobs to the millions of former rural farmers who are heading for the coastal cities every year, while at the same time not instigating a push for political reform. That's a tremendously tricky political balancing act. I hope it goes well, but it may not. The economic growth has produced numerous dislocations - with rampant pollution, the fraying of social welfare protections, bureaucratic corruption, and resultant tremendous social unrest. While millions of Chinese are clearly better off than they were before, millions are also worse off due to the loss of social protections and increasing corruption, and these millions may agitate for reform. Numerous Chinese political regimes in the past (i.e. the dynasties) have been toppled due to peasant unrest, and the current regime may fall for the same reason. China stands on the edge of a knife. If things go well, China will do well. But there is a significant chance that China will fall into rebellion and chaos. </p>

<p>As for India, I think that country's greatest problem is that, just like China, it has to face the issue of integrating millions of poor peasants into a modern economy, along with the special problems posed by ethnic/language diversity and the caste system (i.e. untouchability and the reservation system). Certainly, caste social restrictions have relaxed significantly in the cities, but what about the countryside? Certainly, if India could solve these problems, then India would be in great shape as it would be able to fully utilize the talents of its entire population. However, the caste system has evolved over thousands of years, and hence most likely defies any quick solution. Couple that with the fact that the License Raj, while weakened, is still very much alive. {For example, I read that India today still ranks in the bottom quartile of not all nations, but just developing nations in terms of the ease of starting a new business.} Corruption is still endemic in India. The physical infrastructure (i.e. roads, ports, electricity) is still rather backwards. </p>

<p>Again, to be sure, India (and China) have great potential. But they also has serious problems that it needs to address. Certainly, the US has problems too. But are the US's problems really more serious than the problems faced by China and India? We can debate that, but that's unclear to me.</p>

<p>sakky, so well reasoned that I enjoy your rebuttals immensely. The Titanic sank, Continental Of Illinois went broke, just a few decades after building New Delhi as the capital of the Raj the British Empire vanished. I think America is done for. But then you counter this well by saying this does not matter. Americans will have a good lifestyle like the Brits do today (in contrast to the lifestyle during the Empire). I am not too sure about this either.</p>

<p>I think it will be a while before China will be a real serious threat and a longer time before India poses any great challenge. Still corruption, caste politics, socialist license raj as you so well point out. But between the BRICS nations and the EU I think the challenge is of a new order and America will wither away and this may be good for everyone.</p>

<p>I wanted to PM you on something else but message box full. Can I please do so?</p>

<p>I don't really see china and India as posing a threat to the US. The generation before us were under the threat that computers were going to assume the role of their jobs. It's a cycle that repeats itself, and as more value is added to these countries products and services the American economy will prosper causing more jobs. It just seems like a repetitive cycle to me.</p>

<p>Sakky - You would be an excellent candidate for law school. I truly enjoy reading your comments. Your insight is always very useful. Your reasoning and ability to reasonably compare similar criteria s quite outstanding.</p>

<p>UriA702, I second your comments re Sakky. But the CIA thought Al Qaeda won't hit the towers, and they did think Saddam had WMD. I submit respectfully that you are lulled into the "repetitive cycle". What if you are wrong? If I am wrong, the repetitive cycle continues. I want you and Sakky to write as many words about what if you are wrong scenario as Sakky has written about the past cycles of creative destruction. Intelligence, F Scott Fitzgerald famously wrote, is the ability to keep two opposing ideas in one's head and still function.</p>

<p>and what else?</p>

<p>
[quote]
riA702, I second your comments re Sakky. But the CIA thought Al Qaeda won't hit the towers, and they did think Saddam had WMD. I submit respectfully that you are lulled into the "repetitive cycle". What if you are wrong? If I am wrong, the repetitive cycle continues. I want you and Sakky to write as many words about what if you are wrong scenario as Sakky has written about the past cycles of creative destruction. Intelligence, F Scott Fitzgerald famously wrote, is the ability to keep two opposing ideas in one's head and still function.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Certainly I could be wrong. The US might choose to regress and succumb to nativism by shutting itself off from free trade and a free exchange of ideas and cultures. The US might choose to squelch entrepreneurship because of its perpetual threat to the status quo and the resultant loss of jobs at established firms. Strongly entrenched companies and elites might convert their economic might into political might to defend their positions and freeze social mobility. In other words, the US might choose to close itself from the world and fall behind just like what happened to China under the Qing Dynasty. China was the leading economic power in the world until that dynasty, as entrenched political forces refused to allow China to modernize, even while China was ossifying and falling further and further behind. </p>

<p>However, I would say that while every country runs a risk of ossification and political intrigue, I would argue that those risks are far more likely to happen in other 'contending' nations than it is in the US. Like I said above, both Japan and the EU have to confront the problem of rapidly aging populations and cultures that have been historically intolerant towards large-scale immigration. </p>

<p>As a case in point, all you have to do to become an American is immigrate to and reside in this country for a number of years, refrain from committing crimes, learn some relatively simple English and basic civics, and be willing to publicly declare in a naturalization court that you wish to b e an American. You do all that, and you're an American citizen. You don't have to be a member of a specific racial or ethnic group because the notion of an 'American' is a state of mind, not a state of biology. Japan, on the other hand, is far less forthcoming when it comes to granting citizenship to non-Japanese. There are Koreans whose families have lived in Japan (the "Zainichi Koreans") for generations, were born and raised in Japan, and can speak only Japanese, yet who still aren't Japanese citizens. Obtaining German citizenship is also rather difficult. And of course, citizenship is just the formally documented aspect of assimilation. What is far more difficult is the informal assimilation that has to happen between common people. Ethnic minorities in Japan who have adopted Japanese citizenship feel that they are often times still not treated as "true" Japanese. </p>

<p>Which leaves us with China and India - 2 nations that face epic political challenges, all stemming from the difficulty of absorbing hundreds of millions of extremely poor and marginalized people into a modern economy. Think of it this way. Both China and India each have probably over twice the number of such poor people to assimilate than the entire population of the US. India's challenge is further complicated by the aforementioned caste system and resulting lingering prevalence of untouchability in the countryside. Compared to those political challenges, the US's difficulties pale by comparison. </p>

<p>Look, there is no doubt that any country can fail and that any country, including the US, can fall down. But I think we have to concentrate on the probabilities of failure. I don't want any country to fail, but I would have to say that it is probably more likely that China will not be able to successfully pull off the transition and will hence fall into anarchy and revolution as millions of peasants finally become fed up with the corruption, environmental degradation, and social dislocations associated with fast economic growth, or that India's caste politics will serve to freeze economic growth and resurrect the license Raj than will the US choose to ossify.</p>

<p>Sakky - The US is also falling quickly in mathematics and science. We need to take it as a warning, we will lose jobs overseas unless more funding is devoted to the disciplines. It's important to understand, if children don't have those skill sets needed to compete with a child from India or a child from China, the new jobs will be going there. We have to address the country as a whole, not the few lucky children who will have funding to invent. Is this not a contributing factor to criteria for outsourcing?</p>

<p>Those countries may not be creating value, but if we are indeed living in a world where economic globalization may indeed be a reality of the future, doesn't the US have to further our skill in those fields? Many analysts predict a shortage of engineers, scientists and mathematicians in the future. What can we do to change this?</p>

<p>Not everyone's on board with the shortage of engineers argument. For example, Duke:</p>

<p>Study:</a> There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers</p>

<p>It's not so much a current shortage, but more a projected one. With math and science on a big decline in the states. Due in part to the crappy salaries offered. More and more people are taking business majors up and things of the like. If we continue to lack in math and science as we are now, yes, there may likely be a shortage of qualified talented engineers.</p>

<p>The argument isn't about the amount of engineers we are putting out, it is about the quality. There is no incentive to hire engineers with formal training in the US if engineers with better education overseas are going to be more productive for a fraction of the cost. If the U.S. can boost up student interest in mathematics and science the US may very well contribute more relevant research, furthering our education and making engineers more valuable. </p>

<p>The problem may very well be the lack of sufficient salaries in these fields. Engineering salaries are simply not keeping up with inflation and the decline in the value of the US dollar. IMO this is leading less students to pursue formal education and careers in these fields. When a Business Management degree requires 1/4 of the effort offers much high starting salaries and a substantial increase in earning potentials who can blame them?</p>

<p>While some may pursue a engineering degree due to their natural interests in the field, many reconsider due to earning potential. Money is a very very important issue when deciding a major for a lot of students. That is especially relevant to lower/middle class students looking to live a comfortable life style. It is fairly difficult to raise a family on 100k a year in certain parts of the country.</p>

<p>I saw this thread and my immediate reaction was "Why put yourself into engineering when you want to be an IBanker? There are other EASIER majors with more generous grading". I think sakky already covered that in details. I am speaking as an engineer myself.</p>

<p>I saw this thread and my immediate reaction was "Why put yourself into engineering when you want to be an IBanker? There are other EASIER majors with more generous grading". I think sakky already covered that in details. I am speaking as an engineer myself.</p>