Thanks, interesting. His sister is applying to grad schools this fall MS mechanical and MS EE programs. She has been working for the past two years, and the process is definitely a lot more involved than it probably would have been had she gone straight from undergrad. One of the biggest issues is letters of recommendation. Many of her professors probably do not remember her as well three years out from undergrad; and her boss can only speak to her employment projects… most of the schools she is applying to want rec letters with reference to research.
So son '23 is thinking get it all done.
My wife, who has been in engineering for a few decades has a somewhat different take. However, while she does work with other engineering graduates, her main work is with CS majors, and things may be different for CS graduates and grad school.
This is excellent advice, and I second it.
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Yes, structures is different. Complex finite element analysis is not typically taught to undergrads. And there are so many materials to understand/design. Wood, steel, reinforced concrete, prestressed concrete, precast concrete, masonry, aluminum, and even glass. Bridges, houses (which are not easy), commercial buildings, industrial structures, etc. And then there is seismic design, which is very complicated.
I think undergrads learn cookbook design procedures for simple structures. Graduate students learn complex analysis and the behavior of structures.
I wouldn’t hire a structural engineer who hadn’t gotten a master’s degree. Not worth my time to train him or her.
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I’m going to disagree with this. For some majors such as EE there are so many classes required by ABET that you many only take 3-4 classes in the specialty you want to pursue. A MS gives you a year of courses in your chosen sub-discipline. It may also make a difference down the road when they are looking to promote people into management.
The T30 schools teach roughly the same material as Alabama in undergrad because they’re all ABET schools following the same curriculum. A fifth year at Alabama (or anywhere else) is a differentiator.
To the OP, I’ll add that engineering is pretty flat with regard to brand recognition. Go to Stanford, MIT, Caltech, those are the top. After there is a quite wide swath of schools considered more or less equivalent.
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You won’t even get hiring engineers to agree on this. When my son was trying to decide between staying at Cal Poly or going to Stanford for his MS, multiple posters on the forum said that they’d worked for companies that had a preference for one school over the other. They were roughly split 50/50 over who like Stanford vs. CP grads. He stayed at CP because it saved him a ton of money and time.
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Speaking for employers here… it’s likely you won’t get consensus even among the companies which hire LOTS of engineers.
Some companies like to hire right out of college- then have a bunch of different programs to help strong employees go back for a Master’s (often with a very specific focus which is somewhat different from what they studied as an undergrad). Some companies will tap a talented engineer for an accelerated management program and encourage (and pay for) an MBA vs. an engineering Masters. Some companies have a large pay differential for an MS vs. a BS and other’s do not; most public sector jobs have built in pay scales which largely favor an advanced degree. So many of the agencies (federal and state) which hire lots of engineers have cultures which promote a Master’s degree- sometimes because advanced study is required, and sometimes just because you earn more doing the same job and/or will accelerate faster.
My advice? Age 17 is WAY too early to be trying to read the tea leaves that far ahead!
Your son should find a school which meets his other criteria and which you guys can afford. So much will have changed in 4-5 years anyway, trying to predict all of this is just noise IMHO.
There are some relatively new programs for engineers which focus on innovation, design thinking, etc. some of which are Master’s programs, some of which are just certificates. Some are highly regarded… they really focus in a laser-sharp way on getting engineers upskilled in entrepreneurial thinking and practice, whether working for a Fortune 100 company or a startup.
So I wouldn’t be assuming that a traditional one year engineering Masters (which is offered in lots of places) is where your son wants to end up. And if he’s good at his job, his employer will almost certainly pay for or heavily subsidize one of these innovation programs. They pay out really quickly!
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Thanks good advice. I realize once he actually starts taking college engineering classes his focus might shift.
The company his sister works for will partially pay for a masters degree going part-time. However, a few of her co-workers have said doing it this way takes much longer and the “company education contribution” ends up being taxable income… so might not make sense.
Definitely lots for him to think about once he knows which schools have accepted him.
My D’s company has tuition reimbursement as well. Yes it takes longer but it’s free, and employees still earn their paychecks.
My D was offered an engineering leadership development position (the fast track to management that @Blossom was referring to). Her starting salary is higher than what her university reports for MS holders. For her industry, it was all about co-ops and internship experience in undergrad.
I also agree that it’s too early to predict what your son’s path will be beyond college. Find the school that is the right fit for right now.
I think you are spot on when you say to wait for acceptances and then re-assess.
(FWIW, when my chem E was in HS, she thought she would go into either pharmaceuticals or food/ag R&D and pursue a PhD. After getting more into the bones of her major and working (including in R&D), she totally shifted gears and now has a concentration in polymers and materials, a bunch of leadership/CQI certifications, and wants to do an MBA down the road. Very very hard to predict a path before getting involved in courses on a college level and working).
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Things may very well change. There’s nothing wrong with choosing a path and allowing it to change as op interests change.
The thing that is important to know is that no perpetration will satisfy the wants of every job posting. He can amass a strong record of academic achievement and experiences and still get ignored by lots of companies. It’s no reflection on him, but rather that companies like candidates with experience as they’re easier to vet.
In my son’s case, the company took a risk on him. He was the first new grad hired at a startup. They took that risk because his thesis, senior project and work experience were all in close alignment with what they envisioned him doing. They started him at a salary that surprised all of us. Without his MS, they wouldn’t have hired him.
Conversely, other companies simply ghosted him after applying. It was surprising because he had a high GPA, was a TBP member, and had great experience. It’s a lot like getting passed over by a school. It’s just the way it is.
Best of luck in the quest.
My daughter is a Bioengineering major, currently in her senior year and looking at Master’s programs now. She has a specific interest but most of the programs she is looking at are only a year long. She has a short list of maybe 5 and I think one is a year and 1/2 but it includes an internship. I believe though at her current T20 school almost all the engineer disciplines offer a 4+1 program where the juniors or seniors can apply for a 5th year to complete their masters.
You’re almost certainly right that these things (especially his MS thesis) distinguished him. Most master programs, particularly those 4+1 programs (some schools even have joint 4-year BS/MS programs), don’t require a thesis (or it may only be optional), and only require graduates to take a set of graduate-level courses. Some advanced/ambitious undergraduates often complete these same courses without explicitly enrolling in a master’s program. Not all employers have the ability or resources to look beyond the degrees granted (that partially explains their different approaches), but I bet your son’s startup (or others like it) does.
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I agree…not all MS programs are created equally.
He had the option of course based only, and the Stanford ME MS was course based only at the time. He was offered a funded position on a project used by the aerospace industry and the military. He was ahead enough that he finished in 5 years, but had he not been way ahead, he wouldn’t have.
The cautionary tale is, no matter what they call it, the amount of time it takes to finish is the amount of time it takes to finish.
I think far fewer people complete these programs than start them due to the time commitment. It can suck up a lot of your free time for the 3-5 years it takes to finish.
Good schools such as USC and Stanford offer a part-time remote learning MS degree where you take one course per term. Engineering courses will often take 7-10 hours per week (or more) outside of the 3 hours/wk of class. This comes on top of a fulltime job that in itself may involve more than 40 hours/wk. Many weekdays all you do is work all day and then come home to spend the rest of the evening studying, and if you don’t finish it then you’ll also lose a block of time on the weekend. Rinse and repeat. It’s no wonder a lot of people don’t see it thru to the end.
My advice has been to do the one extra year after undergrad, earn the MS and be done with it.
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That’s certainly the way multiple engineers counseled our son. Too many of them started MS programs funded by their companies, but life got in the way and they didn’t finish.
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But a kid with limited work experience isn’t going to know what type of MS is going to advance his/her career in order to optimize the “one extra year”. I’m not advocating doing law school at night (which truly takes forever- a three year academic program, plus trying to get a position on law review/doing clinics, etc. all while balancing a full time job). This is a one year master’s which can be done with two summers (front and back) and two semesters for the ambitious, or the two summers plus four semesters (total of two years out of your life) to have someone else pay for your Masters.
Doesn’t seem onerous to me AND you have the benefit of studying something which you know will pay out.
That depends entirely on the kid. My son certainly knew exactly what he wanted to do. He landed a spot studying boundary layer aerodynamics in a project that also required his mechatronics background. It was a perfect fit for him.
I never assume that my kids experience is the norm. I know enough people in my professional life to see that sometimes an outlier is…an outlier.
He’s not an outlier. I know many people who knew what they wanted to do, including my father, who went straight through at MIT and my uncle who jumped from undergrad right into a Stanford PhD program. It’s actually very common.
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I’m not ready to recommend an undergrad choice to a 17 year old based on an uncle, a dad, and my son. There are dozens of new post-grad programs which did not exist when your Dad and uncle were doing their dissertations. The field of Innovation as an inter-disciplinary subject (combining business, engineering and data) is relatively new. But early signs are that engineers who get that training AFTER their BS are having a powerful effect on industry. And the top programs are filled with students whose degrees are paid for by their employer.
Thrilled your family members knew their path early on. But three datapoints is not data.
My daughter was accepted at SMU and GT (both were affordable after merit money/Zell). She still chose Alabama. Aside from the great scholarship package UA offered her, we felt that UA also provided the best opportunities for her. College is what you make of it.
ETA - She currently plans to get her masters in 4 years.
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