Engineering Shortage or not?

College Majors Engineering Majors
141

<p>
[quote]
An investment banker is a bogus temp job for most people, and a good temp job for the lucky ones. Doctors always have great jobs....all they have to do is not kill anyone...I can live with that

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You went overboard buddy. In reality, Ibanking jobs have higher rewards as well as volatility compared to being a doctor. Yeah, it has more fluctuations but it doesn't make it a temporary or bogus or merely lucky job. All successful Ibankers share some common characteristics which invalidates the notion that it is a gamble job. The Ibankers require specific traits to succeed as doctors require other traits for their profession.</p>

142

<p>In today's Wall Street Journal: there is a shortage of engineers in Japan! Toyota is now hiring AMERICAN automotive engineers!</p>

143

<p>Look, I'm not saying that Ibanking is perfect either. However, my point stands - if money is all you care about, you can make far more money in Ibanking than you can as a doctor. Is a doctor's life more stable? Yes. But that's not the question I was answering. The question is, which profession can make you more money, medicine or banking? The answer is clearly banking.</p>

144

<p>Sakky, ur answers clearly show your BIAS in favor of engineering as a major, in spite of all the overwhelming information and good reasons to not go into engineering. </p>

<p>
[quote]
if money is all you care about, you can make far more money in Ibanking than you can as a doctor. Is a doctor's life more stable? Yes. But that's not the question I was answering. The question is, which profession can make you more money, medicine or banking? The answer is clearly banking.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>as long as we're talking about making the most money without any guarantees of employment, stability, layoffs</p>

<p>then i propose PLAYING THE LOTTO, or how about profession gambling?</p>

<p>these can make much more money for much less time spent than IBANKING.
think about it. i can spend 10 seconds doing a quick pick on lotto numbers and possibly make $50 million.</p>

<p>but then again in real life, we have to consider the likeliness of hitting these extremes.</p>

<p>i've ready pointed out in a prior post in this thread about ur tendency to mislead people by pointing out all the unlikely to happen pros of ibanking, engineering while simultaneously downplaying, ignoring, or outright refusing to believe any facts about the negatives of engineering. (outsourcing, low salary over course of career, many more just search my prior posts)</p>

145

<p>
[quote]
in spite of all the overwhelming information and good reasons to not go into engineering.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now that's a bias against engineering. Look, on the average, engineering is the safe bet degree.</p>

146

<p>I like to keep my background anonymous as well. Otherwise, trolls tend to dig up your previous posts and criticize about my background. I've actually had it happen to me quite a few times where people try and see where I'm from and end up talking trash. It's always best to not openly disclose information in public forums.</p>

147

<p>Ungiggio,</p>

<p>I mostly agree with wingardiumLeviosa. Sakky, though not infallible, provides good insight and heightens the debate analytically. While he is generally unreceptive to others' ideas and persist on his opinion (and sometimes twist words to get an upperhand), he doesn't lie so far. I don't think many youngsters here really understand his rather advanced and long winding post let alone taking his advice seriously. I also think you shouldn't question his capacity to provide sufficiently weighted post. I never PM him personally, but if you ask me, from his writing I would describe him as an economic-related major grad, maybe a MIT Sloan alum or similar caliber. </p>

<p>I'm a Caltech/MIT alum and my world revolves around engineering. As I know that a number of Sakky's presumptions in the engineering domain are not correct (I have had a long debate with him without conclusive ending), many of his posts in engineering are pretty realistic and valid, and actually debatable.</p>

<p>I'm not his front door, but let's chill out a little bit and make it a more constructive debate.</p>

148

<p>Since the issue of providing youngsters with the best advice has come up, I would like to remind all of them, as some other posters have in this thread, of the best way to choose a career/major: something you ENJOY. Of course bankers and doctors can make a lot of money, but if you aren't the salesman type or interested in medicine, then you won't make it in those fields. And even if you do, you'll wish you hadn't. One thing that's difficult for those entering college to envision is how much of your life your chosen career becomes, especially in a demanding career such as banking or being a doctor, so you better like doing what you're doing.
Choosing a career based on the current economy just doesn't work out as well as you would think. As an example: I'm graduating, mech eng major, from a university in michigan in the middle of possibly the most economically depressed area of the country, and it's specifically bad for the mechanical engineers who were generally hired by the automotive industry before that all but collapsed. A mistake? No, I landed a dream job (for me) with an aerospace company in another state. Of course, this is not the norm for my class, so I'm not saying engineering is a fool-proof plan. I'm saying if you like engineering, then you will do well in engineering despite the economy.</p>

149

<p>" but let's chill out a little bit and make it a more constructive debate."</p>

<p>I agree...but I think it's important for someone to concede ground on some points. If I didn't have exact knowledge about a topic, I wouldn't just dream up talking points and then plaster them on a thread....I imagine that is what's been going on, since I don't know of any engineer that's made claim's that support such an optimistic rosy picture of engineering jobs.</p>

<p>It might help if someone were to say "you might be right in this regard"...especially since there are so many passionate people with an opposing point of view...how can they all be wrong?</p>

150

<p>As for Sakky posting his personal info... honestly, there is no need for that. You can place less value on his advice if you don't know his background and therefore cannot appropriately determine where he is coming from; however, he (nor anyone else on this thread) is under any obligation to share their personal information with the entire internet community. </p>

<p>Sakky did tell me his information - not for free - it did come with a quid pro quo (and like half of the regulars in the law school forum are dying to know), but he freely gave that information out.</p>

<p>To me, the big difference between PMing info and posting it is that you know who has it. Some woman (very nice, it seemed) PMed me a while back to say "hi" - she had all of 10 posts but had been lurking for YEARS and knew where I go to school and knows one of my profs! I do, however, enjoy relative anonymity and like the fact that I can post experiences, without worry that it will be traced back to me. </p>

<p>Lecture over. Anyway... free country. </p>

<p>Carry on, carry on.</p>

151

<p>
[quote]
i've ready pointed out in a prior post in this thread about ur tendency to mislead people by pointing out all the unlikely to happen pros of ibanking, engineering while simultaneously downplaying, ignoring, or outright refusing to believe any facts about the negatives of engineering. (outsourcing, low salary over course of career, many more just search my prior posts)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Funny that you would say it, because you never talk about the downsides as it relates to medicine. In particular, you never seem to talk about what happens if you get rejected from all medical schools you apply to, as what happens to half of all applicants. You never seem to talk about the pressure of HMO's, and of silly political meetings and doing scut work when you're a resident.</p>

<p>Look, I have always agreed that every profession has its downside. Engineering has its downsides. Investment banking has its downside. And yes, medicine has its downsides too. In fact, I have freely talked about the downsides of engineering. But you, on the other hand, want to ALWAYS discuss the downsides of engineering, but never seem to want to discuss the downsides of medicine. Never. Why is that? </p>

<p>You have to be FAIR, aehmo. If you want to apply one set of criteria to engineering, fine, then you have to be willing to appy the same set of criteria to medicine. A fair discussion would include talking about the downsides of engineering as well as the downsides of medicine.</p>

152

<p>
[quote]
for the 1000000th time, DO NOT MENTION IBANKING, MEDICAL SCHOOL, OR OTHER HIGHPAYING POSITIONS OUTSIDE OF ENGINEERING IF IT ONLY APPLIES TO THE TOP 1% OF ENGINEERING GRADUATES.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why not? We are sitting here talking about medicine. Well, guess what. According to AMCAS, about 16,000 people are admitted to US medical schools every year. That is out of 1.3 million new US bachelor's degrees conferred every year. Hence, what that means is that about 1.5% of all peope who earn bachelor's degrees will go to medical school. Of course that by itself overstates the true percentage, because plenty of people get their bachelor's degrees, apply to med-school but don't get in and have to either work or get advanced degrees before they are finally admitted to med-school. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Sakky, ur answers clearly show your BIAS in favor of engineering as a major, in spite of all the overwhelming information and good reasons to not go into engineering.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If I am really so biased against engineering, then why was I the one actually leading the charge AGAINST engineering in another thread? I have freely talked about all the problems with engineering as a profession, the way that I see it. In fact, it go to the point where people were accusing me of being a hater. Why would I be doing that, if I was really so biased in favor of engineering? </p>

<p>
[quote]
and again, why won't u post ur personal bio, i've already stated mine plenty of times in prior posts.</p>

<p>ur so full of it, unbelievable, don't give me any of ur b.s. about wanting privacy, because ur messing with other kid's futures here.</p>

<p>it terrifies me to think of the kids that might be taking ur posts seriuosly because they assume you to be a source of infallible info.</p>

<p>so do not tell me to PM u for ur bio, I WANT YOU TO POST IT EVERYTIME U GIVE ADVICE TO YOUNGSTERS.</p>

<p>and in response to ur reply that our debates are ad nauseam, trust me u disgust me beyond words as well, but i continue to read your posts so i can expose your lies and hopefully keep young kids from regretfully following your negative advice.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You say you're in the Bay Area. I may be coming back soon. So here's a way to square the circle. We can meet. And we'll both find out, face to face, who really knows what he's talking about.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, I will see how long the moderators allow you to hang around this forum. When you fling around terms like b.s, disgust, exposing lies, and all that, I don't expect your handle to be active much longer. But go ahead, keep it up, see what happens.</p>

153

<p>"You never seem to talk about the pressure of HMO's, and of silly political meetings and doing scut work when you're a resident."</p>

<p>ok, now we're talking about things that matter!!! It's taken a long time to get down to the dirty details of daily work, but since we're finally there, please expand on:</p>

<p>1> What pressures from HMO's? what exactly are you talking about here? Reimbursement hassles, problems with bosses....please elaborate.</p>

<p>2> silly political meetings as a resident????? you're talking only 3-5 years here!! Engineers have silly political meetings for LIFE! Residents eventually become doctors, and will have ZERO meetings compared to engineers. Engineers do scutwork for life, even the best of them, due to oversupply of engineers.</p>

<p>3> so what if 50% of the applicant's don't make it into med school?? 90% of applicants get rejected from every Ivy school they want to attend (Harvard, Princeton, yale)....people who are decently smart WILL get into med school. It's exactly as tough to get into grad school as it is to get into med school, but those who study hard will get in...it's not like you're trying to solve quantum physics...it's a professional degree.</p>

<p>Theeee most important points to look at are the details of DAILY work....the kinds of people you have to deal with can make or break your day. Engineers are always butting heads with marketing/business guys, and an engineer ain't going to win against a marketing dude that knows the buzz words and lingo, plus has presentation skills. </p>

<p>Doctors have to talk with patients on a temp basis and just move...no need to butt heads with anyone... and if they ever do, it's probably in court where they can make their case.....generally doctors win unless they royally screwed up and the patient can prove it....but this is three to four times in a lifetime for most doctors, so it's no big deal. </p>

<p>Doctors bosses are envious of their employees, and wish everyday they had gotten an MD...in engineering, the managers own the employees like cattle and generally thank god they themselves are not doing engineering.</p>

154

<p>
[quote]
1> What pressures from HMO's? what exactly are you talking about here? Reimbursement hassles, problems with bosses....please elaborate.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why don't you ask the esteemed doctors that are on this board? There are several. PSedrish_MD immediately comes to mind. There are several others. You can just search for their posts in the premed section.</p>

<p>So when they complain about all these HMO headaches and other such problems, are they lying? </p>

<p>
[quote]
silly political meetings as a resident????? you're talking only 3-5 years here!! Engineers have silly political meetings for LIFE! Residents eventually become doctors, and will have ZERO meetings compared to engineers. Engineers do scutwork for life, even the best of them, due to oversupply of engineers.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Having zero political meetings for life? Plenty of doctors elect to continue working in hospitals and clinics after residency. In many specialties, you basically have to work in a hospital. And let's face it. Hospitals are some of the most gruelingly bureaucratic institutions in the world. </p>

<p>Look, I agree with you that many engineers do scutwork forever. But hey, most people in the world do scutwork forever, and don't even get the benefit of even getting decent pay for it. Do you think the guy who majored in English or Math isn't doing scutwork? </p>

<p>
[quote]
so what if 50% of the applicant's don't make it into med school?? 90% of applicants get rejected from every Ivy school they want to attend (Harvard, Princeton, yale)....people who are decently smart WILL get into med school. It's exactly as tough to get into grad school as it is to get into med school, but those who study hard will get in...it's not like you're trying to solve quantum physics...it's a professional degree.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, you are missing the key point that most people don't even try to apply because they know they won't get in. Like I said before, if your grades and your MCAT scores are poor, you're not even going to apply. Why waste your time and money? You know you're not getting in. Most people are eliminated even before the application step. That is why only 30,000 Americans even apply to med-school every year, compared to 1.3 million Americans who earn bachelor's degrees every year.</p>

<p>And you say that those who study hard will get in? Would you allow me to introduce you to a number of people who I know who studied very hard, and yet didn't get in anywhere. </p>

<p>Doctors have to butt heads with insurance folks all the time, , either to get reimbursed, or to get themselves protected from malpractice. If they are in private practice, then they have to deal with all the headaches involved in running their own business. If they are working in a hospital setting, then they have to deal with the same office politics that you decry. </p>

<p>But hey, don't take my word for it. Why are you so afraid to discuss this issue with the other doctors who are on CC? If you're really correct, then they will corroborate everything that you say, right? So let's bring them in, shall we?</p>

155

<p>Just a reminder - please keep posts on topic. Negative or hostile comments directed at other members are not allowed under our terms of service. Feel free to comment on the topic of discussion, but not other CC members. Thanks.</p>

156

<p>"But hey, don't take my word for it. Why are you so afraid to discuss this issue with the other doctors who are on CC? If you're really correct, then they will corroborate everything that you say, right? So let's bring them in, shall we"</p>

<p>sure, no problem. Advice from real doctors would be awesome, as would advice from real engineers.</p>

157

<p>Excellent aehmo. So let's take the discussion over to the premed section, shall we? There are a number of practicing doctors over there.</p>

<p>Look, aehmo, I never said that engineering was the greatest thing. Nor do I believe it. In fact I myself have said several times that engineering has its problems and that certain people may be better off doing something else besides engineerig. In particular, I would argue that extremely talented people may be better off applying their talents in a field where their talents will be more rewarded. </p>

<p>However, my central points are that #1, nobody really knows who those people are in advance, not even the people themselves. Hence, engineering, if nothing else, provides a strong backup career for those people who find out that they can't succeed in another field. It's certainly a lot more marketable and stable than those liberal arts degrees, you must concede. #2 - Engineering is a fantastic deal for those people who truly do have nothing better. Again, if you're some average kid coming out of rural Kansas, then getting an engineering degree from Kansas State University may be the best you can do, career-wise. Those guys are certainly going to have a better career than they would have if they got a normal liberal arts degree from Kansas State, or no degree at all (and plenty of Americans don't graduate from college). I think you have to agree that this is true. </p>

<p>Hence, engineers, for all their problems, still have it better than the vast majority of other Americans do. I agree that doctors also have it better than the vast majority of other Americans. I also agree that doctors tend to have it better than engineers do. But it's not a fair comparison because doctors have to go through far more schooling than engineers do. And it's far more difficult to become a doctor than to become an engineer. You keep complaining that my analogies regarding investment banking aren't fair. Well, it's no more unfair than comparing doctors to engineers. Most people can't be investment bankers. On the other hand, most people can't be doctors either. </p>

<p>But look, the bottom line is this. Engineering has its problems. But medicine has its problems too, as the practicing doctors here on CC will surely attest to. Some people who are pursuing engineering might be better off trying to be doctors. On the other hand, some people who are pursuing medicine might be better off trying to be engineers. In particular, those 50% of all premeds who apply to med-school and who wind up not getting in anywhere would probably have been better off just being engineers. And of course that doesn't even include all those people who tried the premed track but get to the application stage because they knew they wouldn't get in because their grades and test scores were too low. Those guys would have been better off just being engineers. Surely we can all agree on that.</p>

158

<p>Perhaps this was a good example, Sakky, but I have a possibly warped perspective on it. Two jobs ago I worked at a firm that was run by a liberal arts graduate of Kansas State University. He is worth at least $30 million, by my reckoning.</p>

<p>All the pre-vets in Kansas also attend Kansas State University, and I'd guess that on average they do better than KSU's engineers. KSU has a highly regarded architecture school as well; not sure how salaries compare there.</p>

159

<p>Well, look monydad, on average, you know and I know that the Kansas State engineers are making more money than the Kansas State liberal arts majors. </p>

<p>Obviously there are exceptions. The 2 engineers who founded Google are multibillionaires. I never brought them up before because they are obviously not the norm for engineers. </p>

<p>The point stands that engineering is still a highly safe bet when you are talking about a bachelor's degree. If you want to talk about graduate degrees, then I would agree that other degrees, such as a medical degree, are a safe bet.</p>

160

<p>The simple difference between not making it into an Ivy league school and not making it into med school is that... the former person can still get an awesome education and a BS, which the second person doesn't get to be a doctor.</p>

<p>The 50% rate is of those people who make it through tough pre-med curricula, then (for many schools) get approval to apply to med school (some schools artificially inflate their acceptance rates by refusing to allow some of their grads to apply), take the MCAT, score well enough to apply, and then apply to about 10 med schools. There are a TON of people who get weeded out at every stage of that process. At my alma mater, about 1/2 of the intro bio class drops out; about 1/3 of the orgo I class drops; more drop out during orgo II; chem I and chem II have their own attrition rates as well. Then people take the MCAT, and some won't apply to med school just because their scores are so low that they don't have a good chance. Then, of those who remain, about 80% will get in somewhere. Then again, my alma mater has an amazing reputation among med schools... just think, nationally, that number is only 50%.</p>

<p>Real salaries among physicians have been declining, even without a comparison to inflation.</p>

<p>A physician will spend about $50 per patient to go through HMO reimbursement procedures.</p>

<p>Many HMOs pay per patient, not per procedure or per illness. Doctors therefore have a huge incentive to perform fewer tests, or less expensive tests. </p>

<p>Medicare and Medicaid will dictate a lot of your choices - not you as an experienced professional. </p>

<p>Just my two cents.</p>