Env Studies versus Env Science

Parents Forum
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I would always say that the more technical the better, at least at the undergraduate level if the focus is on job propects. If I were advising a student I would suggest becoming an environmental (or perhaps civil with an environmental focus), engineer. If not, get the BS in environmental science and take the policy classes. It is harder to start out as a policy person, and easier to move into policy from the science side. It also seems that there are not a LOT of environmental studies majors out there. The jobs that come across my desk via linked in etc seem to be for scientist or engineers, especially for remediation work.

Of course it really depends if the focus is on job prospects or what interests the student. However, I really think that in order to understand environmental problems and set policy, you need a good scientific background. Policy has to be based on sound science, IMHO. YMMV.

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Also go on a jobs website like “indeed.com” and type in Env Studies, and then Env Science and see what job choices come up. Are they different? Do you prefer one over the other?

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“Pretty much wasted two trimesters trying to figure that out.”

You’re mainly looking at LACs which don’r require students to declare a major until the end of sophomore year. I don’t think taking some classes and then going down another path as a waste. How are 17/18 year olds going to know what is right for them? What the job paths are? Most are limited to knowing what family and friends do and don’t know all the possibilities. Many will wind up in jobs/careers that might not exist now. Most high school seniors haven’t been exposed to different academic paths in high school because they are taking the standard core courses and high schools don’t offer the breadth they’ll find in college.

I really think all majors are employable. Students, however, need summer internships/job experience to add to their education to hit the ground running.

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^ My D also feels that all majors are employable… and that internships etc are the important factors. This isn’t stopping her from switching… :open_mouth:

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@mom2and “Of course it really depends if the focus is on job prospects or what interests the student.”

This is really the trick. Really focusing on a Venn Diagram with Interests in one circle and Prospects in the other circle and trying to find the overlapping area. Currently, many many college grads are struggling to find positions and end up underemployed while the top grads in Computer Science are $200k plus in salary and on-boarding (signing bonus etc.) There are endless possibilities between those extremes. In general, the kids getting the better jobs with only a bachelors degree are in engineering (including computer science) , healthcare, and business, and math/statistics.

@homerdog
“Since S19 is a strong math student, …he could do … Econ or Math and then Environmental Studies. (He’s not interested in engineering.)”

The main reason to avoid engineering is to avoid the math and science (especially the math). Environmental studies plus math is starting to get close to environmental engineering. lol A key benefit of the environmental engineering route is that you are a lot more employable with a BSE, and can defer the decision to go to grad school until you have more perspective and experience about your interests.

Also, look at the coursework for a typical environmental engineering program. Lehigh and Bucknell are LAC like schools that offer environmental engineering. Here is a sample freshman schedule for the first three semesters of environmental engineering at Lehigh. Bucknell is similar:

Freshman year, first semester (16 credits)
ENGL 1 Composition and Literature (3)
MATH 21 Calculus I (4)
CHM 30 Introduction to Chemical Principles (4)
ENGR 5 Introduction to Engineering Practice (2)
FE Free Electives (3)

Freshman year, second semester (14 credits)
ENGL 2 Composition and Literature: Fiction, Drama, Poetry (3)
MATH 22 Calculus II (4)
PHY 11 Introductory Physics I (4)
PHY 12 Introductory Physics Laboratory I (1)
ENGR 10 Applied Engineering Computer Methods (2)

Sophomore year, first semester (17 credits)
MATH 23 Calculus III (4)
CEE 3 or MECH 2 or 3 Engineering Statics or Elementary Engineering Mechanics (3)
CEE 12 Civil Engineering Statistics (2)
ECO 1 Principles of Economics (4)
EES 22 Exploring Earth (1)
ESR Earth Science Requirement (3)

http://www.lehigh.edu/~incee/undergraduate/courses_environ-eng-reqmnts.html

There is nothing here that is scary if the student likes math and science. Starting in a program like that is a free option. If a student likes it, he can continue, if he doesn’t like it he can hit the eject button at any time and be ahead on his way to a math plus environmental science combination.

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“In general, the kids getting the better jobs with only a bachelors degree are in engineering (including computer science) , healthcare, and business, and math/statistics.”

Depends how one defines “better”. Salary, probably yes. Some are focused on other attributes.

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@Much2learn Wow. Super helpful. Thanks. I’ll have him take a look at your post.

I think he’s avoiding engineering mostly because of the physics and the weed out factor. He’s so done with his uber-competitive high school and wants time in college to explore different interests. That also doesn’t work very well with an engineering major.

When he hears college kids talk about philosophy or political science, his brain lights up. He’s stuck in high school maxing out APs in all five major subjects (like a lot of kids) and has had little time to think about any subjects outside of those. I just don’t think he’s looking to specialize off the bat and engineering pretty much requires as much.

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Just because one is good at math, doesn’t mean one has to major in it and work in an area that employs that skill set. Many students are good at all kinds of things - or anything they set their minds to. If engineering or even math aren’t a passion, that’s okay. I’m confident based on my experience and observations that a bright student attending an academically rigorous college who is motivated and uses summers wisely to gain some experience, they will do just fine career wise. If your child’s goal is to maximize starting salary, that is one thing and different from being employable and self-supporting. What motivates your child - money, some other values? - and what is he passionate about? It’s okay to figure that out at college.

I know philosophy and political science majors who are doing wonderfully a few years out of college with amazing futures ahead of them. I have no doubt that they will eventually out earn a decent portion of the engineering majors who now make more than they do.

Nothing wrong with engineering, mind you. It’s a great major if it aligns with your talents and interest.

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Not all schools set up engineering as a weed out system where one must earn a high college GPA to enter or stay in the desired major.

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@homerdog
“I think he’s avoiding engineering mostly because of the physics and the weed out factor.”

There is no question that there is a weed out factor, but ironically, most of it happens in math classes. The Physics and Chem are really a retake of a high school AP course, with just a bit more additional rigor and detail. I agree that it is a drawback to the major, but for a kid who is strong in math, it may be less of a drawback than what he gives up on another path.

Compare it to the environmental science major, where you are getting a good amount of science but skipping most of the math.

http://catalog.lehigh.edu/coursesprogramsandcurricula/artsandsciences/earthandenvironmentalsciences/#undergraduatetext

“I just don’t think he’s looking to specialize off the bat and engineering pretty much requires as much.”

It is a sort of a math and science specialty, but if you follow that link you will see that environmental actually is not a lot of very technical engineering, compared to other engineering. It is actually very broad math and science that can be channeled in many different directions.

Clearly, each student is different and engineering is not for most students. It is just too difficult. The reason I am questioning this in your case is that he is an excellent student and specifically strong in math, which is the biggest barrier to a student choosing an engineering major. Given that, it seems like it would be worth him seriously considering. It can open a lot of doors later, and there is very little harm done from switching out if he doesn’t like it. Spending freshman year studying math, english and science is never a bad thing.

Good luck on your journey. You are doing a great job helping him think through the options clearly to make informed decisions. That is the best any parent can do.

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Note that environmental engineering is often a subspecialty of civil engineering, rather than its own standalone major.

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Although it’s true that policy has to be based on sound science, as someone who works in environmental policy, I can tell you that in this country, we’re just trying to get policies enacted based on the kind of science that anyone can understand, even non-scientists. You really don’t need a science background in order to understand things like “the Pacific Garbage Patch is a bad thing, so we really should enact policies that reduce the amount of plastic that ends up in the ocean.”

That leads me to another question, which is: is this student really passionate about saving the environment? If not, I’m not sure why he’d be interested in majoring in environmental studies. Environmental science may be less political in nature; I’m not familiar with how that major is taught. But if a student doesn’t really want to spend their career fighting this fight, I’d choose a different major.

I would also suggest taking future financial needs into account. Nobody ever got rich trying to save the planet. It would be sad if he went to college to save the planet but ended up helping some polluting corporation sidestep environmental regulations because he had to pay off his student loans.