I can’t think of anything on a college application where money can’t help out. Actually, I can’t think of many things in life where money can’t help out.
A standard thread on CC is how admissions can be more “fair”. So let’s see:
standardized testing is unfair since students with money can be prepped.
high school grades and rigor is unfair because because wealthy students have better schools and resources
ECs are unfair because they too can be “bought “
That leaves us with (drum roll please) …. A lottery
I’m so glad both of my kids are securely established in their college paths
It is interesting that, at least according to the Chetty article, the very wealthy are the ones who have the least economic benefit from attending an “elite” college, but evidently they are the ones who are spending the most on being accepted.
I often hear that quote, but I’ve always been slightly confused by it. When referring to “the very wealthy” is it referring to the student or the family? And how is that measured?
Rather than try and explain it myself (I may not do it well), here is the source:
Look down in the “Key Finding”, and at the source articles. Be careful, because they have a lot of good and interesting research there, and it can become something of a rabbit hole.
A summary of the earlier findings (which have not changed much) is here:
It mentions failures in k-12 education then says that colleges (esp elite) are the answer. Kind of cart-before-the-horse.
Ignores trades as a viable path to upward mobility.
Ignores the area of study for those in college. You can get a college education in certain areas and be no better off financially, or you can get a college degree in a field that will change your life financially.
So I just emailed the company and asked them if they are writing the essay and theme, isn’t the student committing fraud once they submit the application.
Maybe, maybe not, but that is a different discussion.
I did make a small error. The benefits of attending an “elite” versus a non-elite" college are not that different for the wealthy and the poor. However, the costs that one pays a college coach to ensure (that than just increase the chances) that a student attends, as Ivy Coach puts it “a great school rather than a pretty good one”, are not commensurate with the financial outcomes.
The difference between the annual income percentiles between graduates of “selective publics” and “Ivy+” that the graph from Chetty’s article shows for all graduates is a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of dollars paid to Ivy Coach and similar companies.
But enough of this.
Please share with us any answer. I’m really curious whether they’ll even respond.
Kids should be evaluated on materials they SHOULD know coming out of HS. One has to take and pass USMLE to become a doctor, PE to become an engineer, CPA to become a certified accountant and so forth. And guess what, they are all tested on materials they should know and be able to apply reasonably well on a timed examination.
This has been said many times before but there are plenty of free or almost free materials out there to prep for the SAT/ACT. Many school districts provide help with standardized testing prep as well.
I agree with this. We are not rich and my daughter self prepped with Kahn academy for the SAT and she was able to do very well, even though she did not have a US education, and all her reading and writing for school was in a different language. I will say, we did pay for ECs, because SHE wanted to do them and where we live, they seem to be much cheaper, say under 400$/year for 1hr/week dancing…music was about 1k a year, but was about 3hr/wk.
We did not have the kind of ECs that US universities love, like model UN or math Olympics etc…there was no time for those anyhow, as the school day was already like a full time job. Then there was homework.
I think the French system of putting a lot of stock in teacher comments is fairer. It states clearly whether the teacher thinks the student is 1, capable of the work and shows brilliance or not 2, contributes to the class discussion and 3, is a good student (hard working vs lazy). In the end, grades, rank and teacher comments are what get you into the best schools in France.
In the USA money seems to really help, but also a lack of money but only if you are able to fill the required gap they want filled.
I’d place money on the wealthy being able to pay for good teacher recs too.
There’s very little that money can’t buy.
If a college wants to see a student’s writing they would need to have the student write a piece on an “on the spot” topic at their interview, but many students don’t interview so there’s that problem to solve.
When I went to a wealthy private school in FL for 10th grade and had to test to get in, I had to do both writing and math problems as part of my interview. I made it in. But that was a K-12 school - not quite the same as colleges pulling students from all sorts of locations.
I recall watching the Varsity Blues documentary with my kid who is in a music conservatory now. He was disgusted and said that he was grateful to have the admission to music school be based on something that is not conducive to cheating. Impossible to have someone else stand up and play your audition in front of the panel. Yes, we are well aware that it takes some amount of wealth to develop as a musician, but at least the entrance is fair.
I am kind of curious if anyone knows what fraction of school districts do have SAT/ACT prep? I know that ours doesn’t. However, there are multiple SAT prep businesses near me.
I am a fan of using some level of standardized testing in admissions. But I also see the obvious problems in using it without other considerations.
It may seem a little comical, but in cases where all the students are well qualified for admission, I think the use of a random number generator could actually make things fairer. Certainly fairer than using scores for personality, or boosts based on legacy or donations.
It would also help to have better standardized tests than the SAT and ACT.
For example, in each subject (English, math, various histories and social sciences, various sciences, various foreign languages, etc.), the test could have the following subscores based on the following classes of questions and problems:
Standard content – covers high school level course material, analogous to discontinued SAT subject tests.
Advanced content – similar level as what AP tests cover.
Difficult problems – problems difficult enough to challenge the top range of students, to reduce compression at the top of the score range.
The advanced and difficult sections would be optional, so that test takers not aiming for colleges selective enough to want to see those sections will not have to spend the extra time and money.
I agree but is that not what AP tests are for with the caveat that not all schools offer these. The digital SAT is supposed to optimize questions based on performance and will be shorter.
I worked with a woman who purchased her papers for her MBA classes. This was maybe 11-12 years ago. She would print them out on the office copier, which handled a huge volume of work from everyone in the office (including student workers) … and she’d just leave them for hours until she felt like walking over to get them. In other words, she felt absolutely no shame. I couldn’t believe it.
Circling back to this thread as a new front end to Open AI launched recently, called ChatGBT…which can be used to write essays, papers, etc.
I asked it to write a 300 word essay in the first person about overcoming shyness. The program generated the following essay in about 5-10 seconds. Not much editing needed to make this a passable college essay. Probably not going to be long before a student sends me an AI generated essay to edit
I used to be incredibly shy. I remember feeling like I was constantly being judged by others and constantly comparing myself to them. It was a lonely and isolating way to live, and it held me back in many ways. But over time, I learned how to overcome my shyness and become more confident.
One of the biggest things that helped me was simply becoming more self-aware. I realized that the thoughts and beliefs I had about myself were often not true, and that they were holding me back. I started to challenge those negative beliefs and replace them with more positive ones. For example, instead of telling myself that I was boring and that no one would want to talk to me, I would remind myself that I had interesting things to say and that people would be interested in getting to know me.
Another thing that helped was taking small steps outside of my comfort zone. I started by doing things that made me a little bit nervous, like going to a party on my own or striking up a conversation with a stranger. At first, these things were difficult, but over time, they became easier and more natural. As I gained confidence in these small things, I was able to take on bigger challenges.
In addition to that, I also made an effort to surround myself with positive and supportive people. I found friends who encouraged me and helped me to see the best in myself. They helped me to feel more confident and comfortable in social situations.
Overall, overcoming my shyness was a process that took time and effort. But it was worth it. I am now able to express myself more freely and confidently, and I am able to connect with others in a much more meaningful way. I feel happier and more fulfilled, and I am able to pursue the things that I am passionate about without letting my shyness hold me back.
What jumps out immediately is the fact that there are absolutely no specifics. It reads like a horoscope - it could be anybody anywhere. It reads as though it is copied from any online advice on how to overcome shyness, and modified from second or third person to first person.
Of course, it would not be difficult to tweak it a bit to correct that.
That probably tells us more about the essays that students are writing, or, more correctly, the essays that they are being taught to write.
You should ask the ai again, and see how different the second one is.
We’ve been playing with the AI chatbot for a few days and I have noticed that it produces pretty similar results to wide variety of somewhat similar prompts. I think, except in cases where a student has really perfected the art of creative prompting, it will be easy to tell that a response is the basic chatbot answer.
Just this morning, I learned there are now a variety of “document editors powered by AI.” They are programs like Google Docs, or Microsoft Word, but they integrate the technology from these large language model programs. (Lex by Every was the once I specifically saw referenced this morning.) I saw people describing things like just typing their stream of consciousness writing on a subject, then asking the program to rewrite it in an organized way. Or getting started and asking what they should write next. Definitely a whole new world for writing!
