<p>I have to do evaluation forms for each of my nominations, and they just say "to be completed by people who know you well, excluding family members". Does that include just immediate family, or would my Navy Captain uncle be usable?</p>
<p>At first I thought no, but it does get kind of hard to draw the line when we are all someway related to each other, I mean since I have the same grandfather at George Washington, you have to draw the line somewhere.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>family means immediate family. </p>
<p>use your navy captain uncle dude. hes there for a reason. don't try and pull some "it wouldn't be fair..." type of stuff, it's a dog eat dog world, and no one else besides you and your family really cares if you get into USNA. </p>
<p>you're in competition. use anything to your advantage. that's what makes this country the best.</p>
<p>good luck dude.</p>
<p>I disagree with chenama because your uncle is pretty closely related to you. If you're a competitive candidate, then you don't need a high-ranking military family member to set you apart from other candidates. If you're not, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference what your uncle says or does. My daughter requested recommendations from our pastor and her high school counselor. She was named principal nominee of US Senator from California and also received a nomination from our congressman. It's all about what you've done; not what your uncle has done.</p>
<p>p.s. If your screen name is your real name, I suggest you change your screen name. If you and George Washington share the same grandfather, exactly how old are you???</p>
<p>Thanks for the advice, I'll take it into consideration. For the reasons you mentioned I didn't even consider by grandfather (who was a General in the Army), as I consider him a bit closer than my uncle.</p>
<p>In reply to usna09mom, George Washingtons Grandfather is the same person as my 9th-great Grandfather, sorry for being a bit too brief there.</p>
<p>Thanks again.</p>
<p>w
t
f</p>
<p>my dad is george washington</p>
<p>I meant, my dad read a book about a guy that worked for george washington</p>
<p>then you can agree or disagree, im not here to cause problems with anyone. but your daughter is in USNA, and congrats. Fact of the matter is, 99% of the rest of the population of the world doesn't really care. </p>
<p>Frankly, I doubt this kid cares how your daughter got one (no offense, but its true), because well, hes in competition to get his own nomination. </p>
<p>Competition is exactly what it is. You don't play fair when you want to win...hence the proverb "the only fair fight is the one you lose." </p>
<p>Dude, you DONT NEED to get your uncles recommendation. but you want a leg up to get into USNA right? then do it. trust me, one of my friends in school used her colonel dad to get into AROTC and got in. now she's one of the best 1st lts out there. did the end justify the means? Yes.</p>
<p>Do it if you are sure of yourself. Don't let anyone tell you "it's not fair."
They are only looking out for their best interests. In this world, HONESTLY..</p>
<p>do you really think any one from a collegeconfidential.com site is going to give a **** (pardon me) about who you put as a recommendation? </p>
<p>If you want to go to USNA, do it. If you want to reduce your chances of NOT getting in, then don't. It's simple as that. Not all of us are lucky to have a Captain uncle. but If I did, I would have put him down n a heartbeat.</p>
<p>Good luck. Beat Army.</p>
<p>oh here, in case you are wondering. the term family includes the following members:</p>
<p>"Members of the family use descriptive kinship terms:</p>
<pre><code>* Mother: the female parent
* Father: the male parent
* Son: the males born of the mother; sired by the father
* Daughter: the females born of the mother; sired by the father
* Brother: a male born of the same mother; sired by the same father
* Sister: a female born of the same mother; sired by the same father"
</code></pre>
<p>Members outside of these people are no longer considered family by the collective means, but as kin, and share a kinship. </p>
<p>REMEMBER THIS IS FROM THE PERSON IN QUESTION'S POINT OF VIEW. Obviously if he was looking from his dad's POV, his uncle would in fact, be part of his "family."</p>
<p>Hope that clears some stuff up.</p>
<p>My daughter has a retired navy admiral a great uncle - but she's not gonna use him. Family is family, it's an insult to him if you claim he isn't family. If the relationship between the two is sufficient to warrant a well constructed and knowledgable positive evaluation, he's probably family. She would not dream of implying to him that he isn't family. And, she also doesn't want to doubt why she got in - on her merit or his? Much better to be on hers. When discussed with him, his feeling was that although he would do it if she asked, he felt that he's family. They went on to discuss the honor code .... to some it becomes a matter of honor. Sure, some can claim they didn't think an uncle was family but the fact of the matter is that they both think of him as family - so he's family. There are many many other ways that he can help her that are likely to be more effective than the evaluation. And, finally perhaps more to the point, although it is very copetative to get accepted, the fact of the matter is it is that way for a reason. It is intended to pick the best and brightest. And, by best we mean integrity, selflessness, honor and a multitude of other positive virtues in addition to the apptitude for service. The ultimate saccrifice we ask of these people is their lives, that is not a copetition. It is a much higher concept than the spirit of competition. My daughter aspires to serve our country in this way. It is exactly that - a means to serve.</p>
<h1>momofhopeful2011, Thank you for explaining the issues of family members writing recommendations for candidates and the honor system so well. Good luck to your daughter! :)</h1>
<p>" Competition is exactly what it is. You don't play fair when you want to win...hence the proverb "the only fair fight is the one you lose."
-chenama</p>
<p>That attitude is inconsistent with everything the service academies stand for. Hope you're not thinking of applying.</p>
<p>If I may suggest-
why not consider people that interact with you on a daily basis- that really know "you"....??? your coach....the person that runs a club you are active in.....a teacher (math and english, I believe, are required).... our son used his varsity coach, who he played with for 4 years....and the leader of the Special Olympics program where he was a swim coach for 4 years.....those people knew "him" best- and I have no doubt they were able to offer an honest apraisal of our son! </p>
<p>IMHO, those on the admissions board have seen so many applications cross their desk year after year....tens of thousands of them....and there is not a doubt in my mind they can spot the genuine article from the stock-fill-in-the-blank-ho-hum recommendation that result when people are in the dark about who "you" are!!! </p>
<p>Use the people that know your best...regardless of their title....if it is your navy-captain-uncle or your navy-admiral-grandfather, and you interact with them on a close-to-daily basis (or at least enough that you rate more than a twice-a-year birthday and Christmas card)...then use them!!! But if not.....don't sell yourself short- use the people that know you best, and trust that they will do what is in your best interest! </p>
<p>As an aside, but related to this topic- </p>
<p>Several CC veterans have posted not to try and "figure out the game" or "manipulate the odds"....this is not a game, nor are the odds in your control- so trying to figure yourself into a better "position" is a waste of time. Use that energy to make yourself a better candidate....focus on grades, SATs, essay, ECAs, sports, physical fitness....and being the best citizen of you community that you can! Do what you can to make your application steller...the best of what you can bring to the table! The rest will fall into place! Trust the system- it works!</p>
<p>Best of luck! Welcome to CC! GO NAVY!!!!</p>
<p>Listen to navy2010 and then ask yourself this question Can this uncle write a recommendation about who and what I am about without any help from me or my parents? If your answer is no and you will have to provide him with a "cheat sheet" then dont do it. The boards will be able to tell the true letters of recommendation form those that are managed</p>
<p>GO NAVY!!! (3wks to PPW!)</p>
<p>"That attitude is inconsistent with everything the service academies stand for. Hope you're not thinking of applying."</p>
<p>Hmm. That one was ad hominem.</p>
<p>Well, with all do respect, I was given my choice already, and chose NROTC. Getting into USNA isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world. You want to see hard? Get into Harvard or MIT with an NROTC scholarship, and stay there for the next four years. That's HARD. </p>
<p>What do the academies stand for? Tell me please? Fair Play? If they did, then they wouldn't have minority protected boxes that allow people to get in with substandard SAT scores. Having a Navy Uncle give you a recommendation to compensate for that ^^^^^ is nothing. AND I'm hispanic.</p>
<p>The service academies are institutions for turning civilians (and sailors) into officers--not Peace Corpsman. </p>
<p>Usna09mom, your daughter will quickly learn that in the Navy, it's not about playing fair. It's about getting the job done. Doesn't matter how you do it (within limits)--get the job done. If you honestly think that the Naval Academy is the place where people shake hands politely and say "good game" after losing, you're dead wrong. They do pushups after losing. It gives midshipmen the midset to succeed at all costs, within limits. </p>
<p>I'm not telling him to run 1 mile and say he ran 2. I'm not telling him to put down more push-ups than he did, all I'm telling him is to use an asset that he has. </p>
<p>The term "family" is ambiguous, and he has a right to exploit it.</p>
<p>So I'm telling you as a fellow midshipman, I don't care(pardon me, but i'm being frank) and neither does anyone else here care if you get into USNA. You will, in many cases, never meet chenama, usna09mom, or whoever in your life time. </p>
<p>Navy2010 said it best. Use the Navy Captain uncle. If you don't want to, fine, you don't have to, but don't sell yourself short. Use any resource to help you. Remember, you (unlike usna09mom's daughter) have a trump card on your side. People might not agree with it, but why should you give a ****? You're the one that's a candidate for USNA. Go you! </p>
<p>Beat Army.</p>
<p>^^^^^
I just want to make sure my comments were fully understood:</p>
<p>I suggested using the navy captain uncle IF and ONLY IF he knows you well- and I mean knows YOU WELL. </p>
<p>If he doesn't- if all he knows about you is the news your parents write on the back of a christmas card that arrives once a year, or is someone you see only at funerals and weddings, and if you haven't had many of those in awhile, then STAY AWAY from that recommendation source. It will do you no good to "exploit" anything if the person has absolutely NO IDEA OF WHO YOU ARE!!!! </p>
<p>Use someone with whom you have had multiple, consistant, ongoing contacts with, over the course of some amount of time, that can speak from the heart as to your abilities, leadership, committment, motivation, tenacity, desire.......because they really "get" who "you" are! THAT is the person you want writing your recommendations....because they believe in YOU!!! Now if that person describes your Navy Captain Uncle, then go for it! </p>
<p>As for fair......that is a whole other discussion. Who is to say what is fair in who gets a letter of appointment and who doesn't. What we can agree upon, perhaps, is that there are critiera for the decisons made, we are not priviy to the nuiasances of the process, we have absolutely no control over it other than one's own record (GPA, SAT, ECs, etc......) and that it has to be one heck of a difficult job. </p>
<p>What I will argue, however, is this: playing "fair" is busting your butt to do the best you can do once you do get in.....IMHO, and watching only from the sidelines, you earn your seat each and every day....be worthy....they can fault you for not being perfect....but they will respect you for giving it your 110% effort each and every minute you are there. The only thing "unfair" is not giving this your very, very, and I mean VERY best effort!</p>
<p>As for how "hard" it is to get into USNA....well, like everything else, it is all a matter of perspective! </p>
<p>What is hard is being happy with your choice once it is made, and hard is making the most out of the choice you make. Now that is hard!</p>
<p>Good luck RKavanaugh, whatever you decide!</p>
<p>navy2010 makes an excellent point. obviously, if that navy uncle doesn't even know who the heck you are really, don't waste your time. </p>
<p>as for the usna difficulty remark, you are right, it is in perspective. I'm just tired of seeing applicants apply to USNA because "it's USNA" as opposed to, "it will make me an officer while I serve my NAVY."</p>
<p>you don't apply to usna to go there....you apply to become an officer. you can refuse your commission, but thats....well off topic.</p>
<p>and yes, playing "fair" is when you get in.</p>
<p>getting in, however, requires determination and a will to succeed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
getting in, however, requires determination and a will to succeed.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>you are absolutely correct.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm just tired of seeing applicants apply to USNA because "it's USNA" as opposed to, "it will make me an officer while I serve my NAVY."</p>
<p>you don't apply to usna to go there....you apply to become an officer. you can refuse your commission, but thats....well off topic.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I would have to agree, however with the following caviat. At 17 and 18 it is hard to see that far ahead....so hopefully those that apply do their homework and realize, to the extent possible, what they are getting into. Most will, some may not. What I have come to realize is that the USNA methodology will sort them all out, keeping the former and seperating the rest.</p>
<p>As for an officer in the Navy.....again, hard for someone so young to see that far ahead- most will "get it"....some will lock on before others....but again, I believe that the Navy will sell itself to those willing to consider this path in life! There will be doubts all along the way...what am I doing here....what was I thinking....what counts is the choice to stay....and the motivation will be different for everyone. No doubt the motivation for many will be to be an "officer and to serve"...after all, that is the mission....but that is not to say there may be other motivators as well. Does the end justify the means???? We will have to see, but if you base it on years of outcome, I would again say that the USNA has been doing this a very, very long time, and there is not a doubt in my mind that we have the finest Navy in the world as a result- that is all the proof I need.</p>
<p>As a parent, what I have come to realize is that kids are drawn to the USNA for many, many different reasons....but what keeps them there, through I-Day, plebe summer, plebe year and "the rest" is what really matters.</p>
<p>Last night was the Cadre Turn-Over Parade. Reports are that as the plebes marched in review, the heavens opened up and it poured. Lightening and thunder. But the band played on, 30 companies passed in review, and they marched back to Bancroft, no doubt soaked to the skin, singing their cadences as they went. That is the grit that one needs to get through this.</p>
<p>Will it attract everyone? No. Will it attract some of the "wrong" people? maybe. Will the USNA sort it all out? absolutely. They have it down to a science.</p>
<p>PS...rumor has it the plebes sung a little bit louder seeing the cadre as wet as they were! ;) </p>
<p>(God bless all of them!!!)</p>
<p>"... I was given my choice already, and chose NROTC. Getting into USNA isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world. You want to see hard? Get into Harvard or MIT with an NROTC scholarship, and stay there for the next four years. That's HARD. </p>
<p>What do the academies stand for? Tell me please? Fair Play? If they did, then they wouldn't have minority protected boxes that allow people to get in with substandard SAT scores. Having a Navy Uncle give you a recommendation to compensate for that ^^^^^ is nothing. AND I'm hispanic."</p>
<p>chenboy-</p>
<p>It may come as a surprise to you, but a number of current and former candidates on this listserv have received four-year NROTC/AROTC/AFROTC or Marine Option ROTC scholarships to elite universities (including ivy league schools, Stanford, UCLA, UC Berkeley) in addition to appointments to service academies. Its up to the individual to make the choice between ROTC and service academy if theyve received a scholarship, been admitted to the university, and received an appointment. Since youre still in the application process you should hold off giving advice until youre actually experienced ROTC. Additionally, some candidates use ROTC as a stepping-stone to getting an appointment. Its not for you to judge what is the right choice for other candidates.</p>
<p>Thank you for reminding us that the goal of NROTC and USNA is to produce naval officers--like we didn't already know that??? Furthermore, people with the highest SAT scores don't necessarily make the best leaders/officers. I know a couple of kids with perfect SAT scores and they have little potential for leadership. </p>
<p>Now back to the issue of family members writing letters of recommendation. The niece of USNA grad David Robinson, The Admiral, (considered one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History) attended our USNA parent picnic on Saturday. She will be a member of USNA Class of 2011 after completing a year at NAPS. Her uncle didnt write her letter of recommendation.</p>