<p>Great thread. The game gets readjusted once again.</p>
<p>I have a friend who moved from Houston to Newton, Mass., and who says she has never seen more insular people than those in the Boston area. As her S applies to college, however, her family's perspective is an asset because her S thinks nothing of applying to excellent colleges in the S that his classmates are writing off because of the distance. </p>
<p>Please believe me, where I live now is far more difficult to fly into and out of than virtually anywhere in New England. To get decent fares, I usually have to bypass our small local airport and drive at least 2 hours. I also have to change planes routinely in one of the busiest airports in the country, and have had to wait 2-5 hours on my layovers. As for trains, forget it. My area lacks the convenience of the kind of train service that the NE corridor has.</p>
<p>The closest tier 1 university to me is a 5-hour drive or a very expensive plane ride. Another tier one LAC is a 6 hour drive. Everything else that's ranked in about the top 30 LACs or national universities is at a minimum of 12 hours away. </p>
<p>Anyway, from my perspective, the New England transportation woes are not too great. Having lived in Upstate NY close to the Mass. border, I know how spoiled one can get having so many wonderful universities within a relatively easy drive.</p>
<p>When I want to a college that was 2 hours from home, I thought I had traveled far. Where I now live, that kind of distance would be considered almost commuting distance. :)</p>
<p>All of this is written with a sigh because it's October, and I'd love to see again the glorious leaf changes of Upstate NY and New England. ...</p>
<p>lkf,
I would kind of doubt that geography takes <em>precedence</em> over excellence. I think it's a factor that's considered along with e.c.'s, likely majors, etc., among equally qualified candidates. I certainly agree with you that I hope that "anyone" from a rural or under-represented area would not be preferred for that reason, but I don't think that's what's happening.</p>
<p>I am suggesting, though, taking the students to visit some colleges outside of their regions.>></p>
<p>I absolutely agree with Northstarmom on this. My daughter started off pretty sure she wanted to stay in California --- but there simply aren't many schools of the type she wants (small liberal arts) to choose from here. So, we broadened our search and started visiting schools in other parts of the country. </p>
<p>The big surprise to us both: several schools in the midwest have made her final list. </p>
<p>An even bigger surprise: Many of the schools we visited in the midwest were actually more diverse - geographically, racially, economically - than the typical Northeastern LACs in the same range of selectivity that we visited. That's a huge plus for my daughter who thinks a big part of college should be about meeting and getting to know people who have had different life experiences than her. </p>
<p>However, there's another plus to consider: many of these schools (and many in the south and Texas as well) provide an academic experience that is on par - and even better in some cases - than similar schools in the northeast. BUT they are often somewhat easier to get into, and take a very personal approach to admissions that can really pay off for BWRK's with no particular hook. They are true admissions values.</p>
<p>Of course, no kid should go far from home if he/she doesn't feel ready, and my daughter does have a few west coast schools in her mix, but showing kids what else is out there (and having a look yourself!) can be an eye-opener.</p>
<p>epiphany,
I was surprised, but I heard it straight from the horse's mouth. Some colleges have geographical quotas. Geography may not be the most important criterion, but it matters...a lot...especially for colleges striving for a national or international reputation. </p>
<p>PS - Sorry, I guess I spelled "precedence" incorrectly.</p>
<p>lkf Yes, geography matters. It even matters for less competitive regional schools. If a regional school can get qualified students from the neighboring state, they want them. They qualify for x % of students from oos (one in theory could be a few minutes drive away, but across state lines and it still counts as oos).</p>
<p>Here is a history of the admissions process at Harvard: Not pretty...</p>
<p>on finding finance data:</p>
<p>You can find annual financial statements on the websites of most, but not all, colleges. It's a pretty simple matter to divide by the enrollment for that year to get "per student" numbers. Easy work for a rudimentary Excel spreadsheet.</p>
<p>The numbers are most clear-cut for LACs since essentially all revenue and expense items apply to undergrad. A similar analysis for research universities is muddy because of revenue and expense streams from many unrelated business units.</p>
<p>as for the New Englanders:</p>
<p>I don't think the colleges are rejecting New Englanders based solely on a desire for geographic diversity. Rather, I think a big element is the mind-numbing sameness of the college lists and applications from the region.</p>
<p>A relative was told by an Admissions director from a top Ivy that even though her son's application was outstanding and in the top tier of applicants they receive, her son was not selected because they had too many applicants with similar great credentials from her geographic area.</p>
<p>New Englanders do get rejected from Northeastern colleges because of where they live. There are enormous numbers of high stat New Englanders applying to colleges in the NE, especially in New England. </p>
<p>Those colleges do not want to fill up their schools only with New England students. The colleges want to have a student body that reflects the world.</p>
<p>Candidates also are compared to other applicants within their regions local areas. One reason that New England applicants are so strong is that many have parents who either went to top colleges or teach at top colleges. The students also have access to excellent public and private schools as well as excellent enrichment programs, the type of things that equally intelligent students in less intellectually wealthy areas don't have.</p>
<p>When evaluating students, college consider the students in light of the opportunities that they have had. Consequently, a student in Alabama or Louisiana who has maximized their limited opportunities, but has, for instance a 1420 SAT I may be selected over a BU professors' offspring who has scored a 1500 after going to one of the nation's top public schools and having participated in various local enrichment activities, including doing research under the direction of a friend of their parent.</p>
<p>It seems clear that for the BWRK there is a lot of competition for admission and for financial aid at the top selective schools. Even exceptional determination, hard work, and great stats may not be enough to get into a top 50 school and there is very little hope for an Ivy. If they do get in, the financial aid may be poor, even though the school has hugh endowments and can afford merit scholarships for some highly desired students who do not qualify for need-based aid.</p>
<p>It helps to have a "hook". Geographic diversity is probably not much of a hook. It might help a little if you live in Montana, but generally it won't matter much where you live. So what is needed for a hook? Perfect SAT's, perfect grades, valedictorian? Even that may not do it at Harvard, but it will sure help almost everywhere else. </p>
<p>It seems my D had a hook. She was admitted to a top school and had SAT's, grades, and class ranking which put her in the bottom 25% of admitted students. She even got a small merit scholarship equal to about 20% of the COA (but that is a separate story and they did not part with their money easily).</p>
<p>So what was her hook? I am not sure I know. She had one EC where she had a very high level of dedication and achievement. That could have helped. She had a good essay and a very encouraging alumni interview. Those factors may have helped, but I think it was the program she applied to that made a difference. The program has some very unique admission requirements. In addition, out of 7 freshman who enrolled she was the only female. Sometimes I think you just get lucky.</p>
<p>idad, THanks for the New Yorker link. Very thought-provoking.</p>
<p>" In addition, out of 7 freshman who enrolled she was the only female. Sometimes I think you just get lucky."
If it was a program like physics, engineering or chemistry, there are relatively few females who apply for such programs and who have stats that indicate that they can succeed in such programs, so that's a big advantage for women.</p>
<p>how bizarre! as schools reach their summit they become grotesque.</p>
<p>Obviously geography alone is a poor hook. I suspect the first thinning of the application herd is fairly cut & dried analysis of grades, SATs & recs to weed out clear "denys" and identify clear "admits." Then the more subjective decisions start getting made.</p>
<p>Without getting too wrapped up in "what is a hook," the simpler way to think about it is, "As they review applications, are they seeing 1000 of me, or only one of me?" A female physicist, an Alaskan BWRK, a New England Intel winner, a killer essay-writer-- anything that makes you stand out from the over-plentiful horde would be a plus. Luck enters in, as you have no control over how many kids like you may be applying that year, but you improve your luck picking schools where you are likely to be rare-- i.e. keeping carolyn's points in mind. </p>
<p>I remember doing a workshop on admissions with other Brown interviewers. We were given 10 applications (names changed) to review. Had to admit two, waitlist 1, and deny 7 (or roughly those numbers.) We read through the apps simultaneously and discussed tham as a group. </p>
<p>It was funny... one app really impressed everyone. The esssay was about being a refugee from Vietnam, the suffering, etc; we all thought WOW! this kid has overcome some major things; how unusual, how diverse. Then the very next app we read was another refugee! Apparently, that admission season had quite a few. </p>
<p>So what you think may be a hook may not be a hook.</p>
<p>Having a faculty member as an advocate can also make the difference. At the time she interviewed with the program director, my D was almost positive she would be admitted, but it was a long 3 month wait until the offers finally arrived. I don't think it is enough to apply. It is necessary to meet the key faculty and make sure it is a fit on both sides. That makes it a win-win decision.</p>
<p>Wasn't trying to police your spelling at all, lkf. (Didn't even notice your spelling.)<br>
The asterisks were just my own emphatic style. ;-)</p>
<p>I appreciate what you & others are saying about geographical quotas & what not. And I do know that a huge number of exceptionally well-qualified East Coasters apply to top tier. I would just wonder if they were being not-further-reviewed based on geography alone -- early in the process; it's certainly possible. I guess I'm on the learning curve on this one. Thanks for the info.</p>
<p>Well, I was on the learning curve too! Unfortunately, I didn't find this site in time for it to be much help for my son, and our well-meaning but overworked guidance counselors didn't do much to advise. I was really naive about the admission and financial aid processes. But I know better now and will certainly do things differently the next time!</p>
<p>But I know better now and will certainly do things differently the next time!>></p>
<p>It may sound hypocritical coming from me, but sometimes I honestly wonder if too much knowledge about the process is a good thing. I'm pretty sure that if I knew less, my daughter and I might not be as stressed out as we both are over all of this. There's something to be said for not over-researching and over-thinking the whole admissions game. :)</p>
<p>Carolyn as usual, has made great points. One thing struck me about her #6, accentuating what you have that intersects with what schools are looking for. If the student really puts some thought into the process, he can probably list the criteria that are important to him, but, except in some instances such as the examples she gave, it may be hard to figure out just what a given school wants. I would add to her #6 "Be true to yourself" think about what your strengths are, and emphasize those on the application. Sometimes you will guess right about what the college is looking for, but even if you don't, you won't be any worse off. Interesteddad gave a great piece of advice last year - "Imagine you are the adcom, sitting at the table with the rest of the committee presenting your/your child's folder, and the adcom has summarized the student's strengths with 3 lines on an index card, what would those 3 things be?" also, if you can't clearly find 3 strong points with supporting explanations as necessary, then re-work the application so that what is important and unique and interesting stands out - makes a lot of sense.</p>