<p>lkf725,</p>
<p>I really think those BWRKs need to be applying to midwestern, southern, and northwestern clones of the schools they like in the northeast. Kenyon, Rice, Lawrence, Lewis & Clark-- perfectly equivalent schools to Trinity, Penn, Bucknell... </p>
<p>Play the game back and BE a demographic plus, not an 'overstock.'</p>
<p>Guess what a google search with "enrollment management College X" turns up plenty!</p>
<p>Hah, NSM, we crossed; great minds think alike! :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I really think those BWRKs need to be applying to midwestern, southern, and northwestern clones of the schools they like in the northeast.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>AKA, "InterestedDad's reverse commute" theory of college applications. If rush hour traffic is headed in the same direction, drive the other way.</p>
<p>What would be the best strategy for the middle class BWRK from the northeast?>>
<<i really="" think="" those="" bwrks="" need="" to="" be="" applying="" midwestern,="" southern,="" and="" northwestern="" clones="">></i></p><i really="" think="" those="" bwrks="" need="" to="" be="" applying="" midwestern,="" southern,="" and="" northwestern="" clones="">
<p>No, saying you should apply to schools where you'll add geographic diversity is too simplistic. Think broader and deeper.</p>
<p>Here are Carolyn's rules for figuring this out:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>decide what you want in a college, what would "fit" you. Do not attach any names to this, just decide who you are, who you'd like to be, and what type of school would get you there.</p></li>
<li><p>decide what you have to offer and brainstorm what types of schools would be most likely to place a premium on what you bring to the table.
Again, don't attach specific names just yet - concentrate solely on types of schools. Liberal arts colleges often have a dearth of males. Universities trying to break into the top 20 or top 30 may need higher SAT scores. Schools known primarily as science schools may need English majors. Schools looking to boost revenues or economic diversity may need kids who can be full pays. Schools down south may want geographic diversity, etc. Even kids with SATs in the 1000's have something to offer some school.</p></li>
<li><p>Compare your answers to question 1 and question 2. Re-evaluate what you're willing to compromise on. </p></li>
<li><p>Start identifying schools where your answers to question 1 and question 2 best match up. However, cast a wide net --- and build your list from the bottom up, not the top down, because the schools at the bottom are probably the most likely to pay a premium when what you have to offer and what they need match up. </p></li>
<li><p>After you've identified the schools that best match up question 1 and question 2 for you specifically, it's ok to throw in a few long shot schools that may not particularly need or want what you have to offer but still rock your socks. Keep in mind, however, those schools ARE long shots, and try to avoid falling in love with them to the point where you are blinded to the other, better match schools on your list.</p></li>
<li><p>Target all of your application materials to demonstrate what you have to offer. Every aspect of your application should tie into this as much as possible (this is the tricky part) --- a true "hook" isn't just offering something, it's offering something that the school really wants/needs.</p></li>
<li><p>Never forget that the "perfect" school isn't just the one you want, it's the one that also wants you.</p></li>
</ol>
</i>
<p>
[quote]
Never forget that the "perfect" school isn't just the one you want, it's the one that also wants you.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yep, yep, yep!!!!!!!!!! Bravo to your above post, carolyn! ~berurah</p>
<p>As usual such great advice.</p>
<p>Time for another Coward award - carolyn #164.</p>
<p>We mere mortals think of one or two of her ideas - geography, I was about to suggest male/female ratio. But carolyn has summed it up for all of us and for posterity. She has been singing this tune for a while now, and now maybe more folks will listen.</p>
<p><em>leaves to put on designer gown and make a Coward nomination</em></p>
<p>Forget the nomination, just give her the award.</p>
<p>Carolyn, I think you've got it. Now write the book.</p>
<p>Another New Englander here. We as parents may understand that our child should broaden their geographic search, but many 17-year olds are not ready to do that. We have had this discussion with my son many times, but he does not want to leave New England. We are making headway though - he originally wanted to be within an hour of home. He has visited other areas of the country and does not want to be a plane ride away from home. We know that we will be shut out of "need-based" and were shocked when we used the EFC calculator - my husband thought perhaps that was a 4-year figure. He has spent hours crunching numbers to determine what we can reasonable afford and it does not come close to what the government thinks we can afford. I wish I could find it, but I had come across a grid of parental incomes and number of students at a top LAC and there were very few kids whose parents earned between $100,000 and $200,000 - these are the ones who are hurt most by the EFC calculation especially if they live in high-cost areas. While we would love our child to have the opportunity to attend a top LAC, we are not getting our hopes up He will likely end up at a second or third tier school where he hopefully will qualify for merit money.</p>
<p>Because New Englanders tend to cling so hard to their region when choosing college, they are in great demand in places like the Midwest.</p>
<p>Have those of you with New England kids who are adamant about not leaving taken those students on trips to colleges outside of their preferred areas? I am wondering if the students could fall in love with a place like Oberlin, Macalester, Carlton, St. Olaf, Davidson or Emory if they visited and were given a warm welcome, which is what I think would happen.</p>
<p>Have you also visited the second tier New England colleges where the students might end up if they are turned down by their first choices? There is such a flood of outstanding New England applicants applying to the top New England colleges and LAC that many will be turned down for less outstanding students from less well represented parts of the country. Does a student who's hoping for Harvard or Amherst really want to go to a tier 2 when they could go to a tier 1 outside of New England? Do they really understand their long odds at getting into top New England colleges. I always remember what happened to Andi's outstanding New England S who was shut out of all of his choices last spring. Have your kids looked at that thread to see what can happen?</p>
<p>I sympathize completely with above as we are also a family affluent on paper but living in a part of the country where $200K per year just gets you into the middle class. No way can I do $49K per year at George Washington, a school DS loved when we visited. Fortunately I have been able to get him to look elsewhere, Case Western for one, and University of Toronto which is an amazing school and an amazing bargain.
The New England schools are just way oversold. DS goes to a small private day school and classmates have gotten great merit offers from Tulane, College of Wooster, Ohio Wesleyan, Dickinson - it really helps to look elsewhere.</p>
<p>palermo,
NSM does make a good point about some of those midwestern choices being well populated with outstanding, accomplished New Englanders. Further, about 5 yrs ago we were hearing that N'Englanders were actually preferring some of those choices to the Ivies, anyway, & even to some Eastern LAC's.</p>
<p><em>However</em>, if I felt attached to a region for cultural reasons, or if I felt a particular 4-yr program in a region of choice were head-&-shoulders superior to anything else, I would consider loans after acceptance. As a family who receives generous aid without loans, & who would need such a package, I nevertheless feel (again!) that not all the fin. aid decisions by colleges are well-considered. Someone headed for a long, 9-yr academic preparation in a non-lucrative field should perhaps not be saddled with loans, particularly if the family does not have capital or leveraging assets to help with repayment. But I believe that in many cases, the loan portions of the package are not evened out enough among "classes." Ability to re-pay should be considered along with ability to pay. JMO.</p>
<p>I would also start coming to terms with the best Publics in the area if I believed that New England were essential to my happiness. </p>
<p>Also, if the student were to receive merit money in some available Honors program at a 2nd-tier, the challenge & opportunities might be as great as at a 1st-tier -- particularly with the spill-over of great, rejected applicants to Ivies & AWS that has been occurring the last few yrs. (I'm a firm believer that peers make for easily half the level of challenge at any institution.)</p>
<p>slight backtrack:
Re: Interested dad's post # 134:
Where do you find all this very specific financial information about a particular school including "average cost"? and expenditures per student? USNews online edition? Publications? Net?</p>
<p>We need a "Bidding for Travel" type website for college costs!</p>
<p>I'm not suggesting that the New England parents should force their kids to apply to schools outside of their beloved region. I am suggesting, though, taking the students to visit some colleges outside of their regions. The students might actually find that they love those colleges, and that the people outside New England aren't as unsophisticated and hick as New Englanders tend to assume is the case. The world really doesn't end outside of the Boston suburbs. :)</p>
<p>spikemom,
We have a friend who will graduate soon from U of Toronto & has absolutely loved it. She graduated from a very demanding, high-profile private high school which sends its students to very top schools in great numbers. She was actually not interested in Ivies, but preferred (speaking of!) those midwest schools just named by NSM. She ultimately fell most in love with Toronto. The price was not the deciding reason, but did also figure in, as the parents were very much in the $1K-$2K range named by palermo. Also, the simplicity of the application process -- as compared with voluminous requirements for US colleges -- was a strong pulling factor. There's something about churning out even more paper during sr. yr that was a real turn-off for her. (Ditto with doing the same for measly sums in private scholarships.)</p>
<p>She super-loves the academics, the great metropolitan flavor, the --um -- protective <em>tunnels</em> against weather, and, again the price. She does not feel that she has had to compromise at all academically. Toronto is a world class U.</p>
<p>kjofkw,</p>
<p>What a concept! <a href="http://www.collegepriceline.com%5B/url%5D">www.collegepriceline.com</a>. Yes!</p>
<p>Some kids from our high school have gone to McGill. Same thing as Toronto:a great education at a lower price than comparable schools in US.</p>
<p>To add to Carolyn's sage advice in post 164 for BWRKs from New England, mid-Atlantic and anywhere else:</p>
<p>Apply early to a rolling admission college...</p>
<p>I think it's a shame that geographic diversity would take precidence over admitting the best student. Yes, "diversity" is nice, but somewhat overrated, IMO. Some of my son's college friends, including his roommate, are from distant states and countries, yet they are really not all that different from my son. OTOH, he has some friends who grew up within 50 miles of us who have vastly different backgrounds due to socio-economic circumstances. It's a pretty narrow view for adcoms to think they need somebody, anybody, from North Dakota (or where ever) to make their statistics "complete".</p>
<p>I am not sure why my 17-year old is so attached to New England - I really don't think it has anything to do him thinking people outside of New England are unsophisticated. My guess it is the climate and a certain comfort level living here is whole life. We have a friend whose daughter did venture out of New England for college and she said if she had to do it over, she would not have done it. It was too hard to come home and it took a lot of planning. That may be a lot of it. Traveling to the south of New England is hard (trying to get through NYC can add hours to traveling). Getting to an airport from where we live is a challenge. Fortunately, my son's first choice school at this point is a third-tier school where he will likely get merit aid and even if he doesn't, the cost is a lot lower than the top LACs. I am the one who is more concerned about whether it will provide a sufficient academic challenge. It will certainly be an interesting year ahead.</p>