Everything we think we know, may be wrong

Parent Cafe
141

<p>mini,
I think you have a number of misconceptions, or at least quite impartial knowledge, about what it does & does not take to get into Princeton; what it does & does not take to get into the UC system.</p>

<p>There is much "forgiveness" when it comes to academic standards of admitted students at U.C. One of the common myths about UC admissions is that its supposed transparency makes it easier to track the reasons for admissions decisions. No it doesn't, actually. We're not in those closed committee rooms; but more importantly, the admissions "formula" that can be accessed on various UC sites allows for a tremendous range of qualities, assets, deficits -- at least as much as is "forgiven" on the one hand, or has a "Value Added" quality on the other, for an Ivy.</p>

<p>The tremendous amount of elasticity in UC admissions means that you can be non-URM, non-athlete, with a solid GPA (but not 4.0) and fairly dismal SAT scores, yet have an international award in an e.c., and still be accepted. The person I have in mind is middle-class with no financial hardship or other difficult environmental circumstances such as language, immigration, First Generation, etc. (for which one gets a lot of points at UC). This is not bitterness or cynicism; I am thrilled for this person. </p>

<p>Perhaps the same is true at P. (However, in the CA case, the scores are so low that I would kind of doubt that the candidate would have gotten past the first-look stage at any Ivy.) I am also not criticizing the UC admissions formula, merely stating that it does exist, & it is HIGHLY flexible, which results in a great range of GPA's, test scores, & e.c. qualifications on the resumes of admitted freshmen.</p>

<p>There is a myth that UC (& similar Publics) are "numbers-driven," whereas Privates are not. Wrong again. Look beyond the "numbers" that are the admissions components. Many of these are category descriptors, for which "points" are assessed. Obviously, such a large system would have to assign numerical values to these categories in order to come out with a priority list of accepted students -- & not take a year getting there. It's just that many of these categories have nothing to do with the question you were arguing about whether UC's admitted students can do the work at P. These categories do not even shed light on whether those same students can do the work at UC!</p>

<p>I'm saying that the UC admissions process does not in itself tell me or you that any particular admitted freshman is more, less, or as academically qualified & likely to succeed in any environment as a Princeton admit.</p>

142

<p>
[quote]
Should colleges correct for that and give someone with a kid as smart as mine a scholarship?

[/quote]
That's the problem. The elite colleges tell us not just yes, but "Hell,Yes you will be treated the same, even if you can't afford it."</p>

<p>"We won't judge you against those with greater opportunities, you will be judged within the context of your environment." That's what they say. "If you take the hardest courseload and you can excel and have test scores with the other kids at Elite U., you will be treated the same and your total financial needs will be met as we determine them to be. Don't let money stop you. We will make it affordable for your parents." If you want to view that as a need "scholarship" I wouldn't object. Then they come up with the bag of Doritos and a loan for $10K a year and a PT job as a Financial Award and pit the kid against the parents. "HYPSD said this was fair. Pay it ,Dad. Harvard has to be right." You see kids on the board all the time -"my parents refuse to pay the EFC." Well, I'm betting the parent has a different story. </p>

<p>That's what bothers us. The most blatant untruths. Some of us would like it to stop. I may have been the first to use "transparency" on this thread. Transparency can be beautiful and we should be able to expect it from respected educational institutions.</p>

143

<p>Curmudgeon:</p>

<p>Even for a no-need discount shopper, the average price charged by a college is useful because that is the number that truly captures their total financial aid discounting. If you are shopping for merit aid, you want a subset of the schools who discount heavily -- the subset that emphasize merit aid.</p>

<p>A non-need student should be more interested in a different economic measure: per student spending.</p>

<p>Let's say, for the sake of argument that you get accepted to Oberlin with a merit-aid package that makes the total cost to you $9,000 per year cheaper than your package from Williams.</p>

<p>But, Williams spends $27,000 more per student than Oberlin. Pay $9,000 more to get $27,000 additional "value". Which is the better deal? Now, we are in the realm of a judgement call. Is what Williams spends the extra on stuff that matters? It may not matter one iota. How elastic is your budget? $9,000 is means different things to different people. </p>

<p>That's a personal decision, but at least you understand the parameters of the buying decision in dollars and cents terms.</p>

<p>Somebody else may face a completely different decision when holding acceptance letters in their sweaty palms. For example, it's quite conceivable that a low income URM would actually be charged less to attend Williams because all of their aid is need-based and because increasing diversity is a major admissions goal. So, what may be a tough decision for your individual deal might be a no-brainer for somebody else looking at their individual deal.</p>

144

<p>mini,
You'll get no argument from me regarding your comment about community college transfers & public U's. I need to get off these boards & get onto the UC Regents for some serious policy changes about this issue. The most egregious abuse occurs by wealthy ELC freshman admits who have been documented, as a group, to hugely underperform versus both their demonstrated ability, background, privileges AND vs. their impoverished ELC freshman counterparts. And why do they underperform? Because (again documented) many of them are partying, boozing it up, & studying as little as possible once admitted! They know how to maintain with "C's" (of course) -- how to stay just barely away from academic probation.</p>

<p>And the comm.college wannabe transfers waiting outside Sather Gate are busting their behinds, getting straight A's, & may have just BARELY not made the admission cutoff in their h.s. senior yr. But there may not be room for many of them come junior year, when the "C"-level former ELC students continue to have a guaranteed spot. </p>

<p>This situation <em>definitely</em> needs reform, i.m.o.</p>

145

<p>So let's try looking at this assuming the best of the colleges. First, maybe they judge even the hardest courseload to be sorely lacking and feel the kids risk being unprepared. Second, perhaps there is some "flexibility" to the concept of affordable. Affordable compared to what? Affordable if there is a non-working parent who then has to get a job? Affordable if some real estate has to be sold? Affordable if the (let's get a little more edgy here) the new leased car every 3 years has to be changed to a for example 13 year old Japanese sedan???</p>

<p>It would be really helpful for those of us who aren't in this situation to comprehend if you spell out, if possible if it doesn't reveal too much personal information, what kinds of sacrifices are you being asked to make to "afford" these universities? How does it happen that they think you can "afford" something and you know you cannot?</p>

<p>No one may want to answer that question - of course, no hard feelings. And again, yes, transparency, agreed.</p>

<p>Idad, good point on the what do you get your for your dollars in terms of per student spending.</p>

146

<p>I'll bite. Mine is real simple. Used to make a lot of money . Got sick a decade ago at age 39. Wasn't prepared . Can't work but half time. Money gone. All of it. Big medical bills. Wife went back to work at pretty good job. Zero retirement. Zero assets except where we live. Parents can't borrow. At all. Grandparents dead. No co-signors. (Health ain't good. Can't pay it back. Wife needs life insurance to survive. Her side lives into their 90's.) Lost job with disability insurance. No one will write new insurance, health, life, or disability. </p>

<p>So, let's just say I have financial stressors. LOL. That coupled with a tax return that looks like a Jackson Pollack, and a CSS profile that attributes cash value to a one man band and there you have it. Uncertainty on top of improbabilty on top of uncertainty. Even with all that, we can pay state school rates (where she is an auto admit with a scholarship to boot) without loans because we live frugally and have managed to rat hole and not borrow against some cash value in a twenty year old insurance policy . As I've said before, I'm just trying to leverage her up to where she is around as many kids of like talent as I can.</p>

<p>P.S. Sorely lacking would not descibe my daughter's courseload nor the courseload of a lot of kids from average public schools. Anyway, AP test results,invitational math tournament results, ACT and SAT scores can help verify that some can compete with the terribly advantaged and win. Often.</p>

147

<p>
[quote]
Sorely lacking would not descibe my daughter's courseload nor the courseload of a lot of kids from average public schools. Anyway, AP test results,invitational math tournament results, ACT and SAT scores can help verify that some can compete with the terribly advantaged and win. Often.

[/quote]
So the "often" part sounded a little peevish to me and I am tempted to descend into the "my kid can beat your kid" world - but I have seen your posts often and I give you the benefit of the doubt as I assume you will give me the same benefit. </p>

<p>Of course some can compete with the terribly advantaged. And from what I see in the corporate world C-level ranks are staffed with those same kids from publics 95% of the time these days. So it's not winning I was thinking of. I was just suggesting that's how an adcom might think. That hitting the ground running at HYPSM is harder coming from a school that is how you have previously described your Ds school than from a prep school with small classes, teachers who went to those HYPSM schools, many other kids whose fathers invented 64-bit processing, etc. No implication at all for actually winning.</p>

<p>OK?</p>

<p>And it sounds like the health issues really suck and their financial implications for your kid's education even more so. I would hope she can plead her cause and thank you for helping understand how this works.</p>

<p>Finally, perhaps I am too optimistic, but somehow I think your D will wind up someplace fabulous and someone will understand the finaid issues and do the right thing. I just have a feeling.</p>

148

<p>Curmudgeon,
It's hard to believe - in the fall - that something is going to actually work out in the spring. But you are pursuing a safe strategy with a variety of informed tactics, and it will. It is very frustrating not knowing what's going on in the admissions black box, but you can derive some of it from its behavior - in a probablistic sense, anyway.</p>

149

<p>


</p>

<p>ID, I agree. I said earlier that I believe that coming from a lower middle class town helped, not hurt, my kids in the admission process. What they achieved came from them, not the proverbial "good" schools, not pricey summer programs, not tutoring, not any "added value" beyond the fact that they grew up regular kids with other regular kids. </p>

<p>And it cost a lot less, too, which is why we could pay for college!</p>

150

<p>Cur:</p>

<p>Merit aid schools are obviously an important part of the strategy, but I would not dismiss the possibility that some of the wealthy need-only schools might come through with a nice package. They may not, but I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand ahead of time.</p>

<p>Yours is the kind of situation where individual discussions directly with the head of Finanical Aid can make a difference. </p>

<p>There are schools that are serious when they say that, if you get in, they want to be able to make it happen financially.</p>

151

<p>
[quote]
Finally, perhaps I am too optimistic, but somehow I think your D will wind up someplace fabulous and someone will understand the finaid issues and do the right thing. I just have a feeling.

[/quote]
I like your optimism and appreciate your friendship. ;) Thanks,Alu. I think things will be O.K. ,too. I have had some (well, one or two ) remarkably positive conversations directly with a couple of FA folks that give us some hope. And you just know I won't quit trying.</p>

<p>Interesteddad, ditto for you,too.:). You slipped in there while I was typing, and I appreciate your support, also. We'll be fine. I'll just have to make sure my flanks are covered.</p>

152

<p>"You have said that Smith's financial package blew away the packages from similar schools. Either you submitted different FAFSA forms or there is an inducement-component in their tuition discounting. These schools are too smart to give away free money without getting something in return. BTW, the $2500 Stride discount is nearly 10% of Smith's net average tuition, room, and board price of $27.5k (the real price)."</p>

<p>Forget the Stride, Smith shows his largesse through its biggest merit-based scholarship and it is called the Zollman. A grant for half-tuition goes a long way to blow other packages away, especially if they respect the original ratio of need aid. </p>

<p>Zollman Scholarship: Based on academic merit and affords a grant to cover one-half of Smith's tuition in each of four years at the college. Normally, five Zollman Scholarships are awarded in each entering first-year class. Zollman Scholars are also offered the opportunity to work on a STRIDE Program research project.</p>

153

<p>curmudgeon, I hesitated to say it, but since others have, I will. Though I understand your circumspection, I too believe that some special things will happen for your D this spring. Besides her obvious academic accomplishments, she represents a demographic bonanza, the kind of kid admissions people love to describe at info sessions and in brochures: "and we admitted this one girl, grew up on a ranch, raises goats [I think?], basketball star...truly unique" (apologies if I don't get the details right; I do believe that from everything you've said, she's likely to be a desired commodity for a lot of really good schools.)</p>

154

<p>garland, I like "demographic bonanza". That's a keeper. Right up there with my friend here on the board that called her "Ellie Mae" Jabbar. She will stand out in a stack of "same old same olds", that's a given. Maybe it will work in her favor.</p>

<p>O.K.. I am now officially uncomfortable. LOL. The klieg lights are getting warm. I only used personal data about myself to give an example of a family that just flat doesn't have what the EFC thinks we may have, or should have, or did have, or could borrow. I did it because I didn't think anybody else would. </p>

<p>I'm doing alright. We're doing alright. Lot's of folks have it much worse than we do. I give thanks for what we do have, and I'm not jealous of those who have more. I wouldn't trade lives with most of them. And I wouldn't trade kids with any of them. And I still have the big hat, just no cattle. LOL. </p>

<p>Back to our very informative thread. Please.</p>

155

<p>Ok Cur, back to basics. </p>

<p>Without dwelling on any particular family's situation, it's clear that a lot of families (I know we're one) look at the EFC and can only stare wide-eyed with one of those "what the Hell?", completely dumbfounded looks. That's the reality. And that's okay -- I don't mind having a realistic, upfront discussion with my S to explain to him that the EFC is completely off the table, and the college search needs to take that into account. But what does bother me, as Cur and others have pointed out, is that many schools are simply not being honest. They AREN'T need blind, they WON'T see to it that nobody is turned away due to financial considerations, and they MUST be more upfront about it. </p>

<p>I don't mind that universities/colleges are being run like businesses these days, but they should at least be run like ethical businesses, not Al's Auto Barn (No Credit? Bad Credit? No Problem -- We'll put you in a late model car that you can afford!)</p>

156

<p>Al's Auto Barn....love it! LOL!</p>

157

<p>Who this really kills are the lower middle class/middle class BWRKs from the north east. </p>

<p>If you are a "demographic bonanza" (truly impoverished, URM, first-generation, sports star, from a remote area, overcame major things, or a true genius) efforts will be made to make the school affordable-- even if only barely so. If, on the other hand, you are a middle class BWRK-- who is, after all, very easily replaced with a full-pay BWRK-- you are probably out of luck.</p>

158

<p>What would be the best strategy for the middle class BWRK from the northeast? It is really heartbreaking when the kid is accepted, but then the financial aid just isn't there (And they really know that, don't they?).</p>

159

<p>This has been a real eye-opener. Thanks for all the links, Carolyn. The CB links were particularly enlightening (though dry reading, at times..). Helped me to "convince" my younger s. that next weeks PSAT is important, even though it doesn't "officially" count 'til next year. I had hoped that he'd somehow burst forth with this wonderful newfound self motivation and buckle down wtih the PSAT prep book. Ain't happenin'. Instead, I am sinking to bribery with baseball playoff tickets. To me, it is a small investment in his future.</p>

160

<p>lkf,
The best strategy would be to apply to colleges in the Midwest, South or Pacific NW, where it's unlikely that NE students would apply. Applying to the NE is simply adding one's application to a swarm of well qualified BWRKs from that area. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, the Pacific NW and Midwest especially have a hard time attracting good students from the NE. </p>

<p>One has to apply in a way that maximizes one's strengths.</p>