<p>Also nikki, I see your point about how scientists have been wrong many times but the church has been wrong many times too. Remember back in the 1500's when the catholic church imprisoned a few astronomers that said that the earth revolved around the sun? Haha, silly germans and italians, clearly, god's earth was at the center of the universe!</p>
<p>Tbone ...don't confuse the church with the Word. One is men. The other's Him.</p>
<p>Isn't it interesting how people like to use Wikipedia to debunk the Bible.</p>
<p>While some do accept the Bible as being the inspired Words of God, indeed transcribed by mortal men, others will not. But rejection by similar mortal men does not make it truth. To the contrary, truth must be found via other methods.</p>
<p>You need not, should not believe it because a reincarnated groundhog says it. Nor should anyone be persuaded of your position simply because you state it. </p>
<p>Truth is just that. That which must be the same for you, me, all. In the absence of that possibility for you, then your search for any kind of genuine answer or direction for your life will be meaningless. You'll just be wherever the winds of randomness take you. </p>
<p>Sadly, for a great many, that leads to futility, hopelessness, meaninglessness, only self-determined rules for living. I can fully assure you, my rules would not be close to His rules. :eek: No purpose aside from doing one's own thing, whatever that may be, then wondering about the emptiness. The old "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die."</p>
<p>Lastly, and back to the point of evolution ...ever fewer credible scientists continue to subscribe to this notion. There simply is no credible evidence of its validity. The problem is several generations of scientists, more specifically academics, have staked their entire careers on this notion, convincing themselves inspite of the growing "lack" of evidence in the fossil record that those contrived charts showing apes becoming men, buying into the manufactured Miller experiment of the '50s, and more ...well, there's no place, no research $$, no fame for them. They've nowhere to run aside from the obvious ...Intelligent Creation and all the possibilities that make total sense but require the fundamental acceptance of God being the god of ... even science. We all tend to do this. Musicians worship the music and the skills required to perform it rather than its Inspiration; artists love to wallow in art galleries; actors love to worship themselves as Hollywood reveals to us each and every day.</p>
<p>WP, why do you go to church?</p>
<p>in addition, on what do you base your church choosing criteria?</p>
<p>t-bone, for several reasons, I find yours to be a really great question. </p>
<p>On its face, seems simple. For cynics, they perceive its responses readily lead to supporting their case and usually action for NOT going to church. You know ...</p>
<ul>
<li>The pews are filled with religious hypocrites (remember Harper Valley PTA?)</li>
<li> I don't like the preacher, sermons are too long and boring, pietous, not in touch</li>
<li> All they do is talk about $$$</li>
<li> Well, if God's everywhere, I sure don't need to go there to find Him</li>
<li> Etc., you get the picture; maybe you can see you ...or more so, me ...it it?</li>
</ul>
<p>But in reality, it's a place for spiritually sick people. And just like you won't find specimens of great health in the hospital, you'll find no spiritually-healthy folks in church. Not one!</p>
<p>Still, perhaps like your question inkles ...btw, why are you asking? ...perhaps the #1 question I'd like to discuss with God when I might have the chance and His ear...WHY THE CHURCH? Why did you instruct us that the 1st thing we must (not should) do once we've surrendered our lives to His Son, is get to church. Why didn't He tell us ...get out there and feed the hungry (he did later), run for office as a good citizen (we should), coach our kids' soccer and little league teams (now that might be going a bit far), etc. A great many mornings, even now, I sit there looking at that cross and wondering what it all means and why I'm there.</p>
<p>In fact, the church is the incubator for so many good things ...helping the poor, teaching us about right living, providing avenues to serve, worshipping and serving and recreating with others who are asking your great question (and lots others, and genuinely, i.e. not merely as "prove it to me" type of support to live contrary to God's instruction) ... why should I be here in church?</p>
<p>Most of all though, it gives us the REASON, MOTIVATION, and REMINDER to not only volunteer but to keep on when we're exhausted, distracted, broke, bored, etc. Why? Because or 2 reasons: We are doing this out of gratitude for the blessings and opportunities we've been given (all of which come from Him, not our own goodness or efforts or self-determination), and ...</p>
<p>We are there because God said so. Period. Working out our "obedience" muscles. Doing that which may or may not be what WE want to do, but rather doing that which we are told by our Lord we MUST do. (Of course, one of the most common of contrarian views to this is ..."well, I don't believe that's what that MEANS in the Bible." or trying to redefine the language, i.e. "well it may mean that for YOU, but not for ME." And of course that then leads to ..."well your truth is not necessarily MY truth." But of course, then it's not truth at all, is it? Since truth is not truth if it's not true for all. It's merely opinion. You see how this silliness goes round and round ...when one is not genuinely open to both the notion that there is an absolute truth that does not come from you or me ... but He who created us and all else. Truth is a very critical, essential concept that we must all get out in the open before your question ...or any other related to our relationship with our Creator God can be honestly explored and answered. In its absence, we're just sitting around the ol' potbelly BSing, aren't we.</p>
<p>And lastly, in my sermonette (no charge, btw) WHY do I think God told ME to get my fanny in the pew before I do anything else? To begin the process of WORSHIPPING HIM. Period. And the longer I do that, the "better" I get. Mind you, I'm still lousy. But I'm improving. Not because I'm good. Rather because I'm trying. That's it. God loves those who keep trying. Even if we keep falling and failing. I do. I will. But thank God He knows I'm TRYING. </p>
<p>I've been able to sort out much of the negative ...forget that I'd rather be home in the rack, forget I might rather be home reading the sports page or watching Sunday Morning, forget that I might rather be with my hunting buddies listening for a turkey to gobble at sunrise, forget that I might be at the local diner chowing down at the breakfast buffet, forget that I don't like the songs being sung, forget ...</p>
<p>And focus on as Curley said, my #1 thing ...that cross. If the Creator of the universe could and did do that for me, the scumbag of the planet, the very least thing I can do is get my butt outta bed and go and report in to Him and tell Him how much I love Him. Because He loves me! </p>
<p>So, hope some of my rambling might make a little sense. Can I return to my earlier question and ask ... why do YOU ask?</p>
<p>btw, re: your church "purchasing/selection" question"? I've screwed that one up too! I've shopped 'em, dropped 'em, picked 'em, kicked 'em. We've lost 'em, found 'em in our moves over the years. No matter where we've gone ...the same, doggone idiots (me excluded, of course) show up! Honestly!!! (That's why I wanna ask that question of the Big Guy when I am asked ... "Well, Whistle Pig, do you have any questions before we let you enter these pearly gates?" ..."Ah yes sir, just 2 ... Why'd you bother saving ME. And why'd you make me suffer those fools in all those churches all those years?"</p>
<p>But I work at seeking only 2 things ...is the Bible front and center in the life and worship of the church? ...</p>
<p>And is this a place God wants me in his earthly org chart, a place where I can be used for His will, not mine? </p>
<p>A 3rd might be a sense of "accountability" and openness ... with money, with worship, with governance, with virtually everything. btw, I am no longer at all enamoured with denominationalism (I once was. Took greater pride (and that should tell you something there ..."pride") in my denomination and committees served than I did in being a follower of Jesus Christ. Increasingly, He's my only "boasting." Couldn't give a rat's petoot if one's Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic (I know, the purists will frown on this perhaps), Methodist. Conversely, and perhaps paradoxically, and confident I'll offend some here ...I no longer buy the notion that Mormons, Christian Scientists, Jehovahs Witnesses, and some others subscribe to the same God and Bible I do. The stories of Joe Smith, Mrs. Eddy, etc. are simply so far away from what I read and understand of God's nature, plan, instructions ...So many, wrongly I believe, pass judgement based upon stuff like "well, gee ...they're such nice, clean, dedicated folks and they value families and America and apple pie ..." Sorry, but that's not it. That's all nice and good and laudable, but man made stuff. People trying to be good and competing with the Master. ) </p>
<p>I no longer worry much about great preaching (I love it when a sermon moves me!); who offends, irks, or angers me by commission or omission (always, every place); how many times I'm asked to give (it's NEVER enough, I know, and I NEED to be asked); what the church can do FOR me (rather what can the church do THRU me ...to honor God); trappings like choir robes, advent paraphenalia, entertainment value of service, etc (in fact, simple is getting lots better); programs (especially those focused on serving the congregation rather than the unsaved world); etc. </p>
<p>For newer Believers, I always recommend finding a place that is "alive" in His spirit!</p>
<p>
[quote]
We are doing this out of gratitude for the blessings and opportunities we've been given (all of which come from Him, not our own goodness or efforts or self-determination)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>what blessings and opportunities are you talking about? Like, what are yours? Im not following you here.</p>
<p>Now t-bone ...don't we have some homework to do before we move on?</p>
<p>Hey there Whistle Pig - not sure how I stumbled upon this but wanted to add that I think you've got part of this wrong. The reason we go to church is not to flex our obedience muscles (this Catholic has heard enough of that kind of reasoning to know better). We go for the sake of everyone else who is there...whether they be annoying, hypocrites, or just nice, ordinary folks. We go because He told us that "Wherever two or more shall gather in My name, there am I". We go to experience God in community for the sake of our neighbors, as they do for us, and therefore we do for us.</p>
<p>Well, it'd not be the 1st time, nor the last. Indeed, your point ensures that you'll be there performing for Him. And the notion of community fellowship is so important for all of us. We sharpen each other. But I'd argue your theology is a bit off, suggesting we're there doing good for our neighbors, beyond providing a bit of a whet stone. My understanding is this one's between you and Him. Not you and me, altho always good seeing you. ;) Catholicism dogmatic requirements to earn points seems to generate notions like this. God needs no help with ministering to our neighbors. He calls us to do so because he understands it's a manifestation of our love for Him 1st and foremost. Thus I'll stick with the primary contention that church attendance is to worship Him, not to benefit our fellow pew sitters. Still, because Christianity is a ministry of relationship both with Him and among men, your point would seen to facilitate that relationship in His name. And the more the merrier, altho He is no more present at a mass of 10,000 in St. Peters Square than at the little church of genuine followers in the woods. I'd venture to say, even if the other person got snowed in or fell sick with the flu, He'd welcome me into His house, don't you think? And I'm betting even for the one home alone, He hears his prayers too. Which only leads me back to say, 2 or more is great, but not the reason for my attending.</p>
<p>Clearly fellowship among like-hearted heathens is one of the functions of worshipping together. But in truth both of us are biting on t-bone's implied definition of the church being some place we go, attend, gather.</p>
<p>We can worship Him in our own kitchens just fine; we come to truly know Him through our interactions and shared faith with others. Church is symbolic of this essential connection.</p>
<p>Will also add that paradoxically, I believe that the reasons for going to church are more spiritual than religious. And isn't life best understood in paradox (which is to say, we'll never understand).</p>
<p>simple...you're not. And you nailed it. In-church time is about our relationship with God. It is not about dogma, ritual, what we wear, how we pray ...altho all of those things are best when we offer our best in them ...it is about coming to God on HIS turf and His terms. His house, His direction. The implication's clear ...He's in charge and will establish the ground rules for his creations. He will order things.</p>
<p>And my thought on the worshipping in the kitchen ...of course it's perfectly fine, and even more of what He's instructed us to do ... "pray (another word for 'talk to me!') unceasingly" (guess that'd mean in the kitchen, shower, car, and on and on, right? I love talking to him while I'm turkey hunting with the sun coming up in spring time.) But where we go off course on this is when we imply or state that this is a viable substitute for being IN CHURCH. I think He's been amply clear this is a both/and rather than an either/or scenario.</p>
<p>btw, I'd sorely disagree w/ your notion that church is merely symbolic. No way. It's not like wearing a pin or holding an honorary degreee to show you're smart, or good, or brave. It's about going to class, studying, weighing in weekly when we're trying to shed elbees. This is very real. Not some ritualistic dance or ceremony to remind us of a relationship that is somehow more real or genuine otherwise or elsewhere. And for many, it's the most logical of places to find the game they know they should be playing. You go to the baseball field if you wanna play baseball.</p>
<p>Whistle Pig, I didn't use the words "merely symbolic". Actually, the Catholic faith in particular is deeply rooted in symbolism and in my opinion, this is one of the most beautiful, timeless things about it that often gets overlooked at best, distorted at worst (both within and without the church). No other faith that I've examined comes close to approximating such a sacred connection to the divine through means that we mere mortals can in some small way understand via symbolism, mysticism, etc. And I apologize for transgressing as I know that this is not a discussion about Catholicism. I just wanted to make it clear that when I used the words "symbolic of this essential connection", I meant them in the most reverent way possible.
We do agree that prayer and worship are very real. I just think that as humans, we're always better off getting ourselves out of the way and staying focused on others; not for "points", as you commented on above, but because for me, this was Jesus' message.</p>
<p>You're right, you didn't. But my use of "merely" doesn't diminish your point, rather only emphasizes mine, i.e. that church attendance is not some "symbol" of faith. Symptom, perhaps, but not symbolic. Going to church is not some metaphor for something else, like a pine tree symbolizes Christmas, a cross symbolizes the essence and focus of Christianity, the sacraments of baptism symbolize a changed heart or the bread and wine Jesus' body and blood sacrificed for me. Those are symbols. But as your observations suggest, it seems many Catholics treat the mass as indeed a symbol of their faith instead of the act of worship of the One who saved them. Symbols are passive signs. They do nothing in and of themselves. Worship is an action, taking a step, doing something. To your point, I've many abandoned ex-Catholics, who've abandoned what they view as the dogmatic, sybolic Catholicism for Christianity (words of one of the most substantial, not mine. It's intriguing that even you describe yourself as "Catholic" rather than Christian? You've lots of company in that form of denominationalism.</p>
<p>Also, and forgive me if I'm off base as I can be, you state ... </p>
<p>
[quote]
The reason we go to church is not to flex our obedience muscles (this Catholic has heard enough of that kind of reasoning to know better).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>...suggesting your observation, interpretation of a seemingly cynical viewpoint of what you've been told by your leaders is the purpose of worshipping in church. In other words, you didn't buy their idea and command that you need to be in church because God and his next-in-line priests TOLD you to be there. And you choose not to buy my understanding of the same (btw, I'm not Catholic) concept with a slightly different twist. While "good Catholics" may deem it important to regularly attend mass to obey the priest ...or even to encourage their neighbor as you believe, "good Christians" would deem it important to regularly attend worship services because of the Savior has said He wants us there, and He wants us to listen, learn, ask questions. </p>
<p>But let's face it. Both are in serious trouble. There are tens of thousands of Catholics fleeing the mass, millions who've never read their Bibles nor realized they can and should. There are millions of Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Methodists, ELCA, and on and on, especially in the "main line" Protestant denominations that are finding their church experiences dead as door nails, usually because of unfulfilled spiritual needs and faulty expectations about "what the church can do for me?" clearly failing to grasp the concept that church attendance is not so much about God's Sunday performance for my benefit, but OUR performing for His. Showing Him how much we love Him! All miss the point, which returns us to t-bone's simple, profound question ..."why do you go to church?"</p>
<p>To gratefully, humbly worship my Savior and Lord. He calls me there...I must go IF I really believe what I claim to believe. It's sort of a godly "stress" test of the ol' ticker.</p>
<p>Symbols in Catholicism are not "passive signs". Case in point - transubstantiation - the bread and wine BECOME the body and blood of Christ, not merely "symbolize" it in the traditional sense. Church is the house of Christ - a Holy place not because of the bricks and mortar and cross hanging over the altar but because He lives within by virtue of our willingness to gather in His name. You said it best - Our performance for His benefit is the essence of why we go to church. Yes, it's an action step - an exercise of our free will. So I think that in the end we agree?? I guess that to me, the word "obedience" seems out of place when speaking of showing love to God and others (one in the same thing). It's more like a surrendering of our will to His.</p>
<p>I really think you and I are of the same heart, if not the same vocabulary. Apologists might want to dicker otherwise and split our theological hairs, but I prefer to find our critical common ground. Jesus Christ. Be it symbol or symptom. I don't care that you might believe the elements of communion are JC's real body, and ...now it's my turn, lol ...I see them as symbolic reminders of his love and sacrifice for my sorry-butt ways and renewers/refreshers of my commitment to keep trying to be more like Him in all I think, do, say. These differences matter not to me as they are nothing more than theological quibbling, and my wife will assure you, I can quibble with the best! I'll give you your notion that Mary is somehow Jesus-holy, while I believe she is just a poor peasant girl God chose to deliver His Son into this world. That's not a stumbling block for me unless you and I are in an interdenominational debate tournament and I wanna destroy your sorry behind. ;) (My earthly nature rears its ugly head in the midst of our heavenly discussion. :confused:) </p>
<p>What I glean and trust is that you and I believe JC is who He claimed to be ...God. And that He lived, suffered, died, and lives again for you and me. And that He will be my #1 advocate on the very day I stand before Him and the Father, giving lowly me the stamp of Heavenly Goodhousekeeping that I might enter into His sanctuary. And that for now, on this earth, you and I, no matter our terminology and vagaries of theology have the most wonderful of relationships, going way beyond work mates, fellow Rotarians or poker playing pals, or fellow PTA members, or men/women we might have served in the Armed Forces with, or even our non-believing family members. We share the same heart condition. And while the world sees it as a downer, I really like your notion of surrender. Something I must do to Him EVERY day. Some days I seem to resist or forget and it removes me from His presence every time. Then I have to get back on the bike.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Soo, is there a reason that every single poster on this thread completely ignored this question? When I opened the thread, this is immediately what came to mind for me as well, so I'd like to know what you all think.
Here's the link again [ Which</a> Creation Biblical Story? ], and if you want to read the 2 stories, just pick up Genesis.</p>
<p>there is the whole thing about lilith too, but whatever. I think its funny how a lot of the OT literal believers think genesis is the literal definitive edition, but jewish oral tradition has the same stories told in much greater detail.</p>
<p>yay for stimulating conversation--I'm definitely following this thread =)</p>
<p>"There is no scientific evidence to support evolution or the Big-Bang theory (which is why they are called theories)"</p>
<p>Ok this really really really needs to stop. This sentence right here disqualifies you from making any sort of statement regarding science. </p>
<p>A theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena." </p>
<p>Key word "substantiated", you can't substantiate something without evidence. Hell gravity is a theory, for all we know the giant noodley appendages of the FSM is the only thing keeping us attached to earth. </p>
<p>Scientific evidence? Red shifting planets, Mutating bacteria (how awesome would it be penicillin was the be all end all bacteria killer!?), Galapagos finches, Fossil Records. These all play a role in shaping our understanding of the world around us. Are there things we are wrong about currently, of course! But nothing so far has come to actually disprove the basic mechanisms of evolving species and an ever expanding universe.</p>
<p>The world cannot advance using circular logic (God made the bible because the bible says so, The bible is infallible because it was made by god). Please don't feign ignorance as piety.</p>