<p>Most definitely agree with dubberlykm</p>
<p>also according to page 10 how could they rank “racial/ethnic status” as “not considered”…?</p>
<p>For those who are interested, here’s one of the last times Penn published admissions data broken down by class rank (vals, sals, top 5%, etc.) and SAT scores, which happened to be for the Class of 2011:</p>
<p>[Penn</a> Admissions: Incoming Class Profile](<a href=“http://web.archive.org/web/20080213223110/http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/profile/]Penn”>Penn Admissions: Incoming Class Profile)</p>
<p>Of course, it’s gotten more competitive since then.</p>
<p>^Thank you!!</p>
<p>Talking on the subject of “Valadictorians”, lets remember the context of things. These kids, for ED consideration, are measured based upon 3/4ths of their overall HS performance. Yes, at that time, they may be #1 in their class [or grouped with a number of #1’s at their school - in places where weight of overall course rigor isn’t allowed to be factored into the same], but that doesn’t guarantee their ultimate outcome after 4/4ths of their HS “career” is finished. </p>
<p>Penn wants the kids to challenge themselves all through high school. I’m glad that “Rigor of secondary school record” is included amongst “Very Important”. No one has seemed to mentioned that in this discussion. How much a student challenges themselves while juggling all of the other balls in the air that are required of our children to get into highly selective schools comes through ultimately in recommendations [and the secondary school report] as concerns their character. If a student is always hounding teachers to get their “A” in the class, it’ll show up somehow… If a student solely focuses on getting the best grades possible and not reaching out to others at their school or in their community, it’ll show up somehow… If the student spends so much personal time studying for standardized tests that they cannot be full contributors to their school or community, it’ll show up somehow…</p>
<p>So, those that push themselves academically and are involved in activities they are passionate about may or may not handle all of the stress of fitting all of that in extremely well. That may lead to “character” incidents that surface. These same studentsy may also push to take on more leadership their Senior year which causes less than perfection in the classroom. Accordingly, when the data is used for finalizing who’s who amongst valedictorians, some that were identified #1 at the end of their junior year may not be there at the end of their senior year. </p>
<p>Here’s what I see is the most important question: What drives the student as concerns the inevitable recognition as “valedictorian”; is it just more “prestige” or is it the “passion for learning”? I would hope and as a parent place a lot of confidence that the Admissions folks at Penn yearn to put together a community of future leaders that are in pursuit of the latter…</p>
<p>^
thank you wudman, one of the best posts I’ve ever seen on this forum</p>
<p>The designation “valedictorian” seems to be losing its meaning. Back when I graduated from high school (yes, yes, the Earth had just stared to cool), we had 1 valedictorian, now some schools seem to be cranking them out by the dozen. I suppose that means Penn should be getting more of them, but I find wudman’s assessment far more compelling than an arbitrary set of statistics.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/education/27valedictorians.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/education/27valedictorians.html</a>
[Local</a> News | One high school 44 valedictorians | Seattle Times Newspaper](<a href=“http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002336475_garfield15m.html]Local”>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002336475_garfield15m.html)</p>
<p>I agree with both vinceh and wudman. However, what wudman says is likely true of every “elite” school out there. What distinguishes Penn is 1. having an ED option and 2. using it to fill a very large percentage of each year’s class. I thought the change from Stetson to Furda might have made the process a bit more egalitarian, but it still seems that hooks are beneficial and more important than at many other schools.</p>
<p>That said, it’s not where you go, but what you do where you go, that counts!</p>
<p>wudman, seriously one of the best posts on this entire forum.
i agree with you wholeheartedly - this is why we see so many valedictorians and type a’s rejected!!! i look on the RD/ED thread from last year and some people that are reporting on there that they got deferred or rejected put their essays as “typical sob story” or ECs as “typical leadership positions.” THAT IS NOT WHAT PENN WANTS TO SEE. penn wants to see you genuinely passionate. if your essay was a “typical sob story,” ad coms WILL see right through that. they can sniff ******** just as easy as you can make it up.
and talking about rigor of courseload, that’s probably one of the only reasons i gave penn a shot. the valedictorian of my class never took a single AP. neither did my salutorian. they all took honors classes, which are weighted the same as APs. the entire top 10% took only honors, and the most aps they took were like 3, and joke APs. i took SIX AP CLASSES. all the kids at my school that took more than three-four APs (aka, ALL the aps the my school offers) are in the top 15-25%. i know six isn’t a lot, but for my school, that is a HUGE deal, especially because i took the hardest ones offered. i was one of the FIRST kids in my entire school to ever take ap calculus before senior year because i was passionate about math and i fought the system to get ahead. i took the hardest ap’s offered at my school.
i guess that’s why i say i have no regrets if i get rejected: the decision on my application will show what’s truly important, and if ad coms really care about the person as a whole over grades. i didn’t have the best grades, but i KNOW my personality shines through on my application. and if they can’t see that? and i’m rejected, it will be because of my grades and class rank. and then, i will conclude that grades and numbers are virtually the only thing that matter in this process because i had a lot of other things going for me. i will be very disappointed not because i got rejected, but because these schools really do only care about numbers.
sorry for my little rant, haha, i’m just SICK of kids on here applying to ivies for the name, screaming about the fact that they got a 2100 instead of a 2300. if penn rejects you because you got 200 points lower on your sat, do you really want to go to that kind of school? and anyway, that’s NOT why they would reject you.</p>
<p>avenlea, you’re a tad idealistic. I regret to inform you that people apply to Ivies for their prestige. Adcoms care about grades. Adcoms care about test scores. 2100s keep people out of their dream schools all of the time. It IS indeed why they reject thousands of students every year. You can run around dreamland thinking that they actually care about you as a person, and in some senses they do. But, not to the point that you raise it to. Indeed, they want to know that their students are passionate and willing to take on a challenge. But, students also have to succeed.</p>
<p>@rocketrick: yes! of course they care about your grades and scores…but not to the level that people here bring it to. getting 200 points lower on your sat will NOT keep you out of a good school, i guarantee you. i highly doubt adcoms are sitting there looking at your application with a 2100 (which is above like, 93% of SAT scores in the country), a great GPA, amazing ecs, and going - nope, she didn’t get a 2300, so she’s rejected.</p>
<p>NO!</p>
<p>all i’m trying to point out is that grades and such are all subjective. of course you have to be excellent (i think all of us are excellent - my previous post might have implied that i’m a little below average for penn GPA wise, but my test scores/ECs are in the higher end of their range), but being perfect isn’t necessary. it isn’t even desired.</p>
<p>rocketrick, The SAT is not necessarily the best indicator of future college - or career - success. Once you hit a certain threshold (typically 2100+) you have a shot. The things that tip the balance in your favor will be recs, essays, and any additional supplemental materials. Look at the link posted earlier on this thread for the Common Data Set. It goes to show how Penn looks at the PERSON more than the STATISTICS. A rigorous course load and outstanding recs and essays reflect very well on a person while the SAT and a high GPA simply show that you can take tests well.</p>
<p>They may not be measures of success, but SAT/ACT tests are the only standardized means for comparing students. So, it stands to reason that students with higher scores will be comparatively better academically, and there are schools that just don’t have the space to let someone with a sub-par score in…It’s just one of the facts of the admissions process.</p>
<p>isn’t there like a quote that says for every valedictorian or 2400 student rejected from a top tier school, someone with a 1900 or in the top 20% is accepted? just something to consider. colleges want more than numbers in their class and more times essays and character stuff is a tie breaker rather than sat scores or gpa.</p>
<p>Good thing they explicitly state that they don’t compare students side by side…</p>
<p>tie breaker on letting the student in, “tip the scales” so to speak. not comparing side to side</p>
<p>OMG guys, before posting on this thread, PLEASE read the common data set provided by Penn last year (or this year)</p>
<p>i believe the link can be found on the first page of this thread</p>
<p>avenlea, I wasn’t referring to your post! I completely agree with what you are saying! I was referring to rocketrick.</p>
<p>And yes, I have read Penn’s Common Data Set, as I expressed in a previous post.</p>
<p>my bad icandividebyzero!!! i’m sorry hahah, and yeah paragon i was basing my argument on the commondata set because it says that the essay + recs are used the most</p>
<p>Honestly, I don’t think a Uni can be really honest in the Common Data Set either, it is in the end just a survey, and colleges might want to put their forth their most attractive sides, and present their admission criteria as totally holistic (in real, they might OR might not be holistic.)</p>
<p>If Essays and Recos were really ‘very important’, there wouldn’t be talks on CC such as ‘Get a 2300 for Wharton’, or any chance threads whatsoever, for that matter.</p>