<p>haha i think hes actually going to be a racecar driver, but close enough</p>
<p>"and the lowest admissions rate in the country"</p>
<p>Factually incorrect. It's Yale, if I'm not mistaken."</p>
<p>leave it to a CCer to point that out...haha</p>
<p>Well, it vacillates back and forth between Yale and Harvard every year. But both are obviously extremely competitive institutions where 90% or more of the applicants are rejected each year.</p>
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Sax + xjayz, do you know if Frankie Munoz is really coming in the fall?
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<p>I hadn't even heard that this was a possibility.</p>
<p>Would be nice for the tours . . . </p>
<p>"And this is Grays West, where Frankie Munoz currently lives. Normally we don't take you to see the rooms . . . and it /is/ 8 am on a Saturday . . . but, I'm sure he won't mind!"</p>
<p>This quote from the article is worth considering:
"Each officer spends much of the year familiarizing themselves with a specific area in their region by visiting schools, talking to guidance counselors, and chatting with local alumni. "</p>
<p>I am sure that the Harvard regional officer visits the feeder schools in our area. Not (to my knowledge) our high school ... not most public high schools.</p>
<p>ohio_mom: This is because alumni schedule the admissions officers' visits in most areas. The admissions officers always want to visit schools that are not feeder schools, but the alumni make it impossible for them to do so. For example, I know an admissions officer in charge of the Dallas/Plano area and she is always scheduled to visit the Plano public high schools, St. Mark's School of Texas, Hockaday School, etc. which collectively sends about 10 to 20 kids to Harvard every year. She does not like it at all, though she does understand the nature of college admissions would mean that she should be visiting these schools out of good will. </p>
<p>My admissions officer in the NYC area does not even visit high schools; the three in charge always give info sessions and presentations at the Harvard Club of NYC, just because the alumni believe it is the best place to hold it. However, admissions officers want to get to know the schools in their area very well, and they use student recruiters (who go hometown recruiting during Spring Break) and the school's profile to find out more. Of course, with the internet, it is easier than ever.</p>
<p>That was a good read, thanks for bringing it up.</p>
<p>"The admissions officers always want to visit schools that are not feeder schools, but the alumni make it impossible for them to do so."</p>
<p>Impossible? That's a little strong. Certainly its difficult working outside the good old boy/girl network - especially if this is not an institutional priority.</p>
<p>I definitely understand your concerns, ohio_mom. During our Spring Break, I did recruit back in my hometown in NYC and visited schools that have never been visited before by any college, let alone Harvard. It is a hit or miss. Many students in the schools were not academically qualified (top 10 to 15% of their class, 600-800 on each section on their SATs), and not many students were interested at all.</p>
<p>Currently, the admissions office is working closely with professors such as Caroline Hoxby and Christopher Avery (the guy who wrote the Early Admissions Game) in order to identify students from diverse backgrounds that fall under the new HFAI requirements as well as academically qualified. I know that my friends are calling students from around the country - and even the world - over the summer to encourage students to set the bar high for themselves. </p>
<p>You can definitely disagree, but from personal experience, if it weren't for that search letter from Harvard when I was a rising senior or that phone call I received after I sent in the little postcard requesting more information, I would have never applied and would have never been here, about to enter my sophomore year at Harvard.</p>
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I am not surprised at all at a study which found that Ivy league education provided no benefit in success rate to Ivy league compared to similarly qualified students that went to state university.
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<p>That study that you refer to proves little by itself. The study purports to show that those who got admitted to Ivy league schools and turned them down are just as successful as those who went to Ivies. The problem is that the study presumes that those students who got into the Ivies and turned them down for lesser schools did so randomly, and hence the pools of candidates could be treated as random variables. Nothing could be further from the truth. Nobody turns down a better school randomly. They have REASONS for turning down better schools. Hence, the process is non-random and the two pools cannot therefore be compared. That's basic statistics. The pool is highly self-selected.</p>
<p>I'll give you an example. I know a guy who turned down an Ivy for a no-name state school. In his case, he went to the state school because they offered a combined BS/MD program, and he knew that he wanted to be a doctor and so he wanted the guaranteed admit to med-school that the BS/MD program offered. Plenty of people, even from the Ivies, who want to be doctors can't get into medical school, so having a guaranteed spot is priceless. I completely agree that if you are sure that you want to be a doctor, a BS/MD program is your best bet, even if it is at a no-name school (which most of them are). However, that simply proves just how self-selected he is. He freely admits that if he wasn't sure he wanted to be a doctor, or he didn't get into that special BS/MD program, he would be going to one of the Ivies.</p>
<p>The regional Harvard admissions officer did visit our public high school - and to my knowledge, this is not particularly a huge Harvard alumni area.</p>
<p>"I completely agree that if you are sure that you want to be a doctor, a BS/MD program is your best bet, even if it is at a no-name school (which most of them are)."</p>
<p>I disagree -- unless the candidate is excessively risk averse. Someone who consistently has had top scores and top grades will almost certainly do well enough at Harvard to get into a far > than no-name med school.</p>
<p>xjayz - </p>
<p>"During our Spring Break, I did recruit back in my hometown in NYC and visited schools that have never been visited before by any college, let alone Harvard. It is a hit or miss."</p>
<p>Good job, and I commend you for it. So, how does one go about prying other reps out of their comfort level?</p>
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"I completely agree that if you are sure that you want to be a doctor, a BS/MD program is your best bet, even if it is at a no-name school (which most of them are)."</p>
<p>I disagree -- unless the candidate is excessively risk averse. Someone who consistently has had top scores and top grades will almost certainly do well enough at Harvard to get into a far > than no-name med school.
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</p>
<p>It's my turn to disagree, for several reasons. Keep in mind that 'only' about 90% of Harvard premeds who apply to med-school will get in somewhere. I say 'only' because that's actually one of the highest rates in the country. Still, that means that about 10% of Harvard premeds who apply to med-school will get rejected from every med-school they apply to. Furthermore, that's only talking about those who actually apply. Plenty of students at every school, including Harvard, don't even bother applying to med-school because their grades and MCAT scores are so low that they know they won't get in anywhere. Remember, somebody at Harvard has to graduate in last place. Nobody thinks they will graduate last, but somebody has to graduate last. </p>
<p>Furthermore, keep in mind that for the most part, these BS/MD programs don't lock you in. This is certainly true of the program of the person I was referring to. You are still free to apply to other med-schools. No program can legally "force" you to stay. If you get into a better med-school, then you just drop out of your current program. But if you can't get into a better med-school, then you just stay where you are. In that way, going to one of these BS/MD programs mean that you've taken out insurance, in that you know that you're guaranteed to be going to med-school somewhere. It's a bird in the hand. Contrast that with going to Harvard (or any other non BS/MD program) for which there are no guarantees.</p>
<p>The fact that "somebody has to graduate last" is no justification for everybody to sell themselves short. It would be a shame for an academically strong student who values education and who has been accepted to Harvard and wants to go to Harvard College to be scared into denying herself what she wants and accepting a (perceived) second rate undergraduate education. </p>
<p>Do you have ACTUAL knowledge of a single case where someone chose Harvard over a BS/MD program and later could not gain acceptance to a medical school of <em>at least</em> comparable stature?</p>
<p>I have to agree with Leon - those 10% probably wouldn't have gotten into a BS/MD program anyway. AND, if they had, all the better that they get weeded out at college instead of actually going to medical school. I mean, would you want your doctor to have been accepted to medical school based on high school grades, but wasn't really up to snuff when it came to undergraduate studies, let alone medical rigor. Of the students who are truly capable of going to medical school, Harvard is a sure bet of gaining admission to the next level.</p>
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Nobody turns down a better school randomly. They have REASONS for turning down better schools. Hence, the process is non-random and the two pools cannot therefore be compared. That's basic statistics. The pool is highly self-selected.
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<p>The reasons for turning down an Ivy league are varied enough for the process to be considered random. What you are implying is that somehow the pool that opts for education other than Ivy league is somehow better than the average Ivy leaguer so as to overcome the effects of 'inferior' education offered at other places....assuming of course that Harvard offers the premier education environment. I thought we were dealing with best of the best, with each individual a 'star' in his own right. I am sure we all agree that Harvard offers the 'best' education possible.....but I am confounded how a group that opts for education other than Ivy is somehow smarter than the average Ivy Leaguer.</p>
<p>Well you got a convert here....Since I am turning down an Ivy... :)</p>
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The fact that "somebody has to graduate last" is no justification for everybody to sell themselves short. It would be a shame for an academically strong student who values education and who has been accepted to Harvard and wants to go to Harvard College to be scared into denying herself what she wants and accepting a (perceived) second rate undergraduate education. </p>
<p>Do you have ACTUAL knowledge of a single case where someone chose Harvard over a BS/MD program and later could not gain acceptance to a medical school of <em>at least</em> comparable stature?
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</p>
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I have to agree with Leon - those 10% probably wouldn't have gotten into a BS/MD program anyway. AND, if they had, all the better that they get weeded out at college instead of actually going to medical school. I mean, would you want your doctor to have been accepted to medical school based on high school grades, but wasn't really up to snuff when it came to undergraduate studies, let alone medical rigor. Of the students who are truly capable of going to medical school, Harvard is a sure bet of gaining admission to the next level.
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</p>
<p>Well, I'll put it to you this way, guys. Why do some schools even have BS/MD programs if it's not valuable anyway? And why does anybody choose to go to them? After all, these sorts of programs tend to bring in very strong students, because these students value that MD guarantee. But if what you are saying is true, and these students would have been able to get into med-school anyway through the normal path, then why even have these programs at all? </p>
<p>Clearly there must be some value in the guaranteed MD spot of these programs, otherwise nobody would ever enter these programs. The implicit tradeoff is that you will attend a lesser school than you could have, in return for that MD guarantee. Hence, that guarantee either must have some value, or the people who pursue this tradeoff are being stupid. Surely you guys aren't trying to argue that all these people are being stupid? </p>
<p>To crimsonbulldog, your presumption is that the premed process is completely fair. But this is not so. A lot of good people get weeded out by some of the anachronisms of the premed process, something that has been discussed in great detail in the premed forum of CC.</p>
<p>Furthermore, like I said, it isn't just a matter of only the '10%'. Like I said, that 10% is a reference to those who APPLY. Plenty of premedsat any school don't even bother to apply because they know they can't get in. If you have less than a 3.0 GPA, then unless you absolutely CRUSH the MCAT, you're probably not going to apply to med-school because you know that you won't get in. There are students at Harvard who have less than 3.0's.</p>
<p>like I said, those people who drop pre-med or don't get above a 3.0, or don't do well on the MCAT, SHOULD not go to medical school, whether it be at HMS or PSU. What are the anachronisms of the pre-med curriculum? And if you think pre-med is hard, its frankly a cake walk compared to medical school - which is why I think its a good thing for the process to be more exclusive than inclusive. Many people who "want" to be doctors might not really have it in them despite what they feel. I think this clash often between desire and ability is what feeds the inundation of complaints from the many pre-meds who didn't make it.</p>
<p>Furthermore, your argument "if its there, it must be there for a good reason or else it wouldn't exist" is sort of a cop-out no offense. The fact is that there are very very few programs and none are linked to good medical schools (with the exception of Northwestern). Which is why I have absolutely no idea why anyone who could get into harvard or wherever, would cash in their chips early and take the easy road of guaranteed admission to U Miami, instead of setting their sights as high as they can (which is not to knock UMiami, just using it as an example of one of the combo programs). It is frankly a choice made out of fear, which is why I look down upon it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The reasons for turning down an Ivy league are varied enough for the process to be considered random. What you are implying is that somehow the pool that opts for education other than Ivy league is somehow better than the average Ivy leaguer so as to overcome the effects of 'inferior' education offered at other places....assuming of course that Harvard offers the premier education environment. I thought we were dealing with best of the best, with each individual a 'star' in his own right. I am sure we all agree that Harvard offers the 'best' education possible.....but I am confounded how a group that opts for education other than Ivy is somehow smarter than the average Ivy Leaguer.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's not about being 'smarter', it's about knowing what you want.</p>
<p>I'll give you an analogy. Some people have observed (a bit facetiously) that Harvard's dropouts have arguably done better than Harvard graduates. For example, Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, Matt Damon is a world-famous actor, James Murdoch is now the CEO of British Sky Broadcasting (BSB), Rivers Cuomo dropped out because of the burgeoning success of his band, Weezer (although he did return to graduate), Mark Zuckerberg, founder of Facebook, is now on leave and may eventually drop out. </p>
<p>But nobody drops out of Harvard (or any other school) randomly. These people all had REASONS to drop out. Bill Gates wanted to start his computer company. Matt Damon was itching to start his acting career. James Murdoch dropped out to start a hip-hop music label and then to become a high executive at News Corp (under his father, Rupert Murdoch). None of these people dropped out randomly, they all had an excellent reason to drop out. Rivers Cuomo dropped out to pursue success with Weezer. Zuckerberg, honestly, doesn't really need to graduate as he is already successful. Hey, if I had a great idea for the next great tech company or music label or band, I'd probably drop out of college too.</p>
<p>The simplistic logic is that just because these people dropped out of Harvard and became successfull, that means that everybody should go to Harvard and then drop out. I think we can all agree that that's flawed logic. The correct logic is that if you should drop out of Harvard (or any other school) only if you are presented with a killer opportunity the way that these people were. Otherwise, it is probably better if you actually stayed in school. Otherwise, it would be observing that just because most stars in the NBA are college dropouts or never even went to college, that means that if you want to be a NBA basketball star, you should also drop out of college, or not go to college at all. That's wrong. These people dropped out of college, or never even went to college, because they KNEW they were going to be high NBA draft picks. Hey, if I was going to be a top NBA draft pick, I probably wouldn't finish college either.</p>
<p>The same analysis holds when comparing Ivy students with students who could have gone to the Ivies but chose lesser schools. Those latter students chose lesser schools for a reason. Hence, they are not comparable. True, the reasons are different from person to person. But they are still REASONS. It's like people drop out of Harvard for many reasons, but they are all reasons. Hence, if you don't have a reason, you should probably choose the best school you can.</p>