Experiment: Ivies Admit Only Public School Grads

College Search & Selection
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<p>Approximately 90% of a PUBLIC high school. But, 30-40% of incoming freshman at ALL Ivies come from a select group of ELITE PRIVATE high schools. Clearly, private high schools are drastically overrepresented at the Ivies, while public schools are underrepresented.</p>

<p>Many on CC defend the drastic overrepresentation of elite private school graduates at Ivies by saying that the students Ivies desire most happen to attend these elite private private schools.</p>

<p>Considering that some Ivies are denying 9 out of 10 applicants, it seems that the Ivies could fill their freshman classes with only highly-qualified public school grads without affecting the quality or makeup of the incoming freshman class.</p>

<p>COULD THE IVIES FILL EACH OF THEIR INCOMING CLASSES WITH ONLY PUBLIC SCHOOL GRADUATES WITHOUT COMPROMISING THE QUALITY OF THE INCOMING FRESHMAN CLASS? WHAT DO YOU THINK???</p>

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<p>Maybe. But what's your point, really? Since the Ivy schools are private, why would they choose to go all public? </p>

<p>I do think that kids from the privates go for other private colleges in larger percentages than the top public school kids do, especially in California, where we have excellent public universities. My point is that the Ivies may see most of the top private applicants, but not most of the top public applicants.</p>

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<p>I made a mistake in my opening sentence. It should read, "90% of all high-school graduates attended a PUBLIC school"</p>

4

<p>A question for you..</p>

<p>Could "need blind" schools, like the private Ivies, afford to take only public school kids? </p>

<p>Is it possible that kids from private schools, on average, are more likely to be full paying customers? </p>

<p>I believe the "balance" of private to public has a lot to do with the financial numbers they want to achieve. They have more than enough great kids from both public and private schools to fill their seats.</p>

5

<p>I guess they could do that? but what would become of the so-called diversity in student body..... 100% Public & 0% private would be just......terrible. How about 90% public and 10% private.... Hmm? If we force the Ivies adapt this federally-mandated-ration system, this will help to equalize the overall HS education in this country. However, the downside of this educational ration policy would be that this will probably make private school?s administrators &their parasites mad as wet chickens, and perhaps increase the unemployment rate in some boarding school-rich states.</p>

6

<p>Of course they could do this, but why would they? I am a public-school kid, but I see nothing wrong with ivies accepting a large percentage of students from private schools.</p>

7

<p>ASAP: Your post is very thought provoking. I think you hit the nail on the head with what you say. The handful of elite private high schools that are overrepresented at Ivies probably does have much to do with finances and little to do with quality of students the Ivies are bringing in. Of course, I'm not saying that the grads of those elite private high schools are not well qualified. I am saying that the Ivies can bring in equally qualified students from the public schools. But, because of finances, equally qualified public school graduates are discriminated against because of the financial bottom line.</p>

<p>It's interesting to see that the Ivies consider themselves "need blind", yet they will look toward the elite private high schools in order to bring in students whose parents will pay full tab. What's the difference between that and just dropping the "need blind" policy?</p>

<p>The Ivies are no different than other businesses. They have to make certain decisions based on finances. I don't have a problem with that. But, it would make me feel much better if the Ivies would come right out and admit to the fact that private high schools are greatly overrepresented, in part, due to financial reasons. If it were made public, many highly qualified public school grads who are denied admission may have a better understanding of why they were denied.</p>

<p>It makes me wonder: Once the Ivies admit public school students who are recruited athletes, children of legacies, underrpresented minorities, etc., then admit the students from the handful of elite private schools the Ivies regularly do business with, is there any room left for highly qualified students who don't have some sort of hook?</p>

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<p>Any top school is going to have an overrepresentation of wealthy kids from elite prep schools. There is no doubt that there is a correlation between family income and SAT score. This doesn't mean that poorer students are more stupid but simply that they have access to fewer resources.</p>

<p>Examine the top students at public universities. A large percentage of them will come from wealthy families as well. The only difference is that Ivies only take top students while public schools take students of vastly different academic abilities.</p>

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<p>norcal: You make some good points. But, I know of many poorer students whose academics, SAT's and EC's would blow away those of many grads of the handful of private elite high schools that Ivies do a lot of business with. But, because they come from lesser-known high schools (= less wealth), they are often denied with those going to the "right" high schools are accepted. Is this really necessary?</p>

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<p>old but wise - don't be a troll. Except for celebs and donation entries, and to a lesser extent legacies, the Ivies are letting in the cream of the crop, this cream is frequently found at expensive private schools, along with publics of all shapes and sizes.</p>

11

<p>I found the exeter class of 2006 college profile, and it really doesn't seem that these kids are undeserving at all. It only lists college matriculation information in the three-year period of 2003-2005. In that period, however, 218 students chose to attend ivy-league universities. We can assume that roughly 1/3 of those students would be doing so each year, so the yearly total becomes 73 students. When viewing their test scores, you can see that there were roughly 80 students who scored 750-800 in either math or verbal, and about that number of students in the 700-750 range as well. Admittedly you cannot see total statistics there, but I believe it is safe to assume that most of these students didn't do extremely well in one section and very poorly in the other. Using only SAT scores as a rough guide, this gives us well over 100 students who would at least be fairly qualified to attend the ivy league, and 73 matriculated. Is this a high percentage? Yes. Is it too high? I don't really think so</p>

<p>Information from: <a href="http://www.exeter.edu/documents/Profile_2006_final.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.exeter.edu/documents/Profile_2006_final.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>i'm from a public high school, but i see no problem with high private school acceptance rate. a lot of private schools have better academics becasue they don't have to follow any state guidlines. also, a lot of people in public schools do not have the money to go to the ivies so they just don't apply. there are some pretty qualified people who choose community colleges becasue of money problems. ivies are need blind, but many people don't know that and others who do don't believe it.<br>
kids from private schools bring in money, which is good for people who need fin aid. also, all colleges are businesses so somewhere down the line they have to be selfish and think about the money.</p>

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<p>Private schools also include parochial schools. Should students be denied admission because the wanted to go to a high school that emphasizes their religion?</p>

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<p>Students who get into a school like Exeter are going to be very good students to begin with. The academics at a school like Exeter are going to be more rigorous than MOST public schools. They have classes 6 days a week and they go to classes until 6:00 in the evening. The students who graduate from a school like this are well prepared for the academic rigors of college. The Ivies know this, and are comfortable that these students will be probably be able to handle the workload.</p>

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<p>The "right" high schools, as you call them, require applicants to take the SSAT, which has a strong correlation with the SAT. The average at top privates is 99% nationally. Most would stand a much better chance at HYPS if applying from their local public school.</p>

16

<ol>
<li><p>You can't have these private school vs public school quotas because it's not legal. You don't choose which family you are born into nor can you decide where your parents want you to go to school. Aren't parents doing their job when they use all their resources to send their children to the best schools they can (this can range from a rich person paying for prep school instead of a beach house to a poor family taking a large financial hit to live in a more expensive area with a better public school). Should you hold it against the children that their parents want whats best for them?</p></li>
<li><p>There are many types of people at top prep schools who are Ivy material. You have the kids who are going to be developmental admits because their parents donate so much and will get into the Ivy so long as they have respectable grades and SATs. You also have kids at prep schools on full scholarships and have worked very hard to get there (I think sakky's brother was one). If you limit the number of students who can get into Ivys from prep schools, you are either taking away spots from developmental admits and losing valuable donations, or you are taking spots from the other kids (including scholarship kids) who work very hard and have amazing stats and profiles. </p></li>
<li><p>Yes, Ivys can find public school kids to fill their classes and not lose any in terms of SAT scores or selectivity. However, many of these public school admits (as they are now) will come from the better public schools in richer areas, so it really helps no one. </p></li>
<li><p>Stop being an anti-Ivy troll.</p></li>
</ol>

17

<p>it makes sense that the Ivy's have more students from elite private schools. Most of these elite private schools have high admissions standards to get in. so they only take the cream of the crop. in some cases they take the best students away from the public schools. so in these elite schools they have higher numbers of students that are academicly qualified to get into and go to the Ivy's. for example a private high school with a 300 person graduating class might have 25 people qualified to get into the Ivy's where as a public school with the same size class might have only 5 students qualified to get into the Ivy's.
Public high schools have to take everybody regardless of academic ability but elite private schools can take only the students they want to represent them. its like comparing apples to oranges because of the overall quality of the students attending each type of school. just my thoughts.</p>

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<p>At a top private, about 35% go to an ivy.</p>

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<p>really!? i didnt know it was that high, i kinda just picked a random number. but 100 of 300 seems kinda high but i guess at a really top school its possible.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
ASAP: Your post is very thought provoking. I think you hit the nail on the head with what you say. The handful of elite private high schools that are overrepresented at Ivies probably does have much to do with finances and little to do with quality of students the Ivies are bringing in. Of course, I'm not saying that the grads of those elite private high schools are not well qualified. I am saying that the Ivies can bring in equally qualified students from the public schools. But, because of finances, equally qualified public school graduates are discriminated against because of the financial bottom line.</p>

<p>It's interesting to see that the Ivies consider themselves "need blind", yet they will look toward the elite private high schools in order to bring in students whose parents will pay full tab. What's the difference between that and just dropping the "need blind" policy?</p>

<p>The Ivies are no different than other businesses. They have to make certain decisions based on finances. I don't have a problem with that. But, it would make me feel much better if the Ivies would come right out and admit to the fact that private high schools are greatly overrepresented, in part, due to financial reasons. If it were made public, many highly qualified public school grads who are denied admission may have a better understanding of why they were denied.</p>

<p>It makes me wonder: Once the Ivies admit public school students who are recruited athletes, children of legacies, underrpresented minorities, etc., then admit the students from the handful of elite private schools the Ivies regularly do business with, is there any room left for highly qualified students who don't have some sort of hook?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Old-but-wise, that begs the question of why you're choosing to single out the Ivies for these particular issues. You think that non-Ivies don't do the same? You think that state schools don't provide preference to legacies? You think that most state schools don't still provide preference to URM's? AA has been banned in only a handful of states. </p>

<p>"The University of Michigan has a 150-point "Selection Index" for undergraduates, with 100 points usually enough to get in. The university awards a four-point bonus to children and stepchildren of alumni, or one point to grandchildren, spouses or siblings of alumni."</p>

<p><a href="http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Polk_Alumni.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Polk_Alumni.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And of course, if you really want to complain about recruited athletes, how about the recruited athletes at the 'big-time' football and basketball schools, a category of which none of the Ivies can be properly included? Let's be perfect honest. Whatever academic deficiencies Ivy athletes posses does not compare in the least compared to the deficiencies that the athletes at the major sports schools exhibit. For example, Dexter Manley was a star football player at Oklahoma State for 4 years (prior to a Pro-Bowl career in the NFL) before revealing later in his life that he didn't even know how to read. I am fairly certain that all Ivy athletes at least know how to read. Even today, plenty of athletes attend major sports schools with little intent of actually trying to graduate. For example, I think it is widely understood that Kevin Durant has little intention of actually trying to graduate from Texas, and Greg Oden has litte intention of actually graduating from Ohio State. I remember when Berkeley admitted Jason Kidd, nobody actually seriously expected that he was actually going to graduate...and sure enough, after 2 years at Berkeley, he jumped to the NBA. Similarly, I think few people actually thought that Chris Webber was actually going to graduate from Michigan, that Stephon Marbury wasn't going to graduate from Georgia Tech, that Allen Iverson would graduate from Georgetown, that Carmelo Anthony would graduate from Syracuse, etc.</p>

<p>So I would actually propose a counter-experiment. If the Ivies should only admit public-school students, then all of the big-time sports schools only those athletes who are actually academically capable and who actually intend to graduate. Big money sports recruiting, to me, is the far more outrageous 'crime' that violates the spirit of academic meritocracy. After all, not only are many of these guys brought in without even the modicum of academic ability, but they also get full scholarship rides to do so (when plenty of far more academically capable students get no money at all and hence have to go into debt), and many of these athletes clearly have no intention of even graduating at all and are just using the college experience to prepare themselves to turn pro. At least, in the case of legacy or prep-school admissions, the students in question who are admitted to a particular college using such methods at least have the intent to actually graduate from that college. Plenty of these athletes don't even try to do that. Imagine being a guy who worked hard to get into Berkeley but didn't get in because Berkeley would rather admit Jason Kidd, when everybody knew that he had no intention of graduating anyway.</p>