<p>"But we aren't just talking about "smart kids" at UT. We are comparing the average student at UT with the average student at, say, Harvard. The latter will have more opportunities." -nspeds</p>
<p>You really can't compare the two since UT has 39,000+ undergrads and Harvard has just under 7,000.</p>
<p>The UT Honors Program, called Plan II, only accepts around 200 students in its freshman class, and is extremely competitive. There were kids just last year from my school who were rejected from Plan II but now go to Georgetown, U Chicago, UC Berkeley, and Cornell. So if you only compare UT Plan II with Harvard, it's probably slightly less competitive, but the kids who go there are just as smart if not smarter than those at Harvard on the whole, thanks to the lack of legacy BS that goes into Ivy league admissions. Remember, George Bush got into Yale.</p>
<p>I will agree with you that Plan II is outstanding, though under-rated. In fact, many of my friends turned down other top schools for Plan II and BHP.</p>
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thanks to the lack of legacy BS that goes into Ivy league admissions. Remember, George Bush got into Yale.
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<p>That is an exception, not the rule. I hate it when people cite these "famous cases," hoping that they can generalize from it. It might make you feel better, but Yale's legacy policy is justified: the admissions office once published statistics demonstrating that the vast majority of legacy admits (upwards of 90%) graduated at the top of their class.</p>
<p>For every one "dumb" person you can cite who attended an Ivy League school, I can cite another fifteen dumb persons who attended a regular school. Your point?</p>
<p>(If you want to talk about famous politicians: Clinton went to Georgetown and Yale Law School, Barak Obama went to Occidental College, transferred to Columbia, and graduated from Harvard Law School (he even made it to the Harvard Law Review).)</p>
<p>"being in the top 1% of the class, having near 2400 SATs and near 2400 Subject SATs-- and despite all of that, they're not applying to the very top schools?"</p>
<p>It's called living in the USA in areas that are not in the Northeast, suburban Chicago, or coastal California. In most other areas, going to the absolute highest-rated college that one's credentials could get one into is not at all common. The Ivies average about 6,000 undergrads. Look at the top 6000 students at places like Texas, Penn State, Ohio State, Minnesota, Purdue, U of Washington, and Florida and you'll see that they are not all that different from the students in the Ivies.</p>
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Look at the top 6000 students at places like Texas, Penn State, Ohio State, Minnesota, Purdue, U of Washington, and Florida and you'll see that they are not all that different from the students in the Ivies.
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<p>Exactly. I agree whole-heartedly. Also, let's not forget that outside of those nerdy/anal enough to get into an Ivy, there are worthwhile people to meet! Some of the smartest, most interesting kids I know could never get into Princeton or Yale. And yes, before you get smart, I know plenty of kids at Ivies/going to Ivies, too.</p>
<p>Also, being surrounded by the type of people who could get into an Ivy is a double-edged sword. There's not just a higher concentration of intelligence and motivation. There's also a higher concetration of condescending, arrogant, nerdy, grade-grubbing people.</p>
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There's also a higher concetration of condescending, arrogant, nerdy, grade-grubbing people.
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<p>At a sophomore at an Ivy, I take offense to this generalization. Every single person I've met has been modest and down-to-earth about their achievements. Nobody boasts and they can't be condescending or arrogant because you never know what the guy next to you did. In addition, not all of us are "nerdy," whatever your definition of "nerdy" may be. Third, there are no "grade-grubbers," since people work hard for the grades that they deserve.</p>
<p>Please do not make these negative generalizations about all the kids that are attending Ivies. It's a double-edged sword -- it's making you a very "condescending [and] arrogant" person.</p>
<p>Oh, I'm not saying /all/ of the people at Ivies are like that, or even the majority. I am merely saying the /concentration/ is higher. Perhaps attending school with those who "rival" their accomplishements tones them down a bit. But coming from a competitive program in my highschool where about half of the kids are destined for very prestigious schools, it's safe to say many do indeed act like they are better than everyone else. But, they also come back and say not to take that attitude with you to college, because when you put a bunch of people who thought they were all that together in one room, they very quickly realize it's pointless boasting unless there are "inferiors" around ;).</p>
<p>So, I take what you say with a grain of salt.</p>
<p>And to clarify, by grade-grubbing I just meant being overly concerned with grades/studying, not by begging for grades you didn't earn. And here we have the state school counterpart - a higher concentration of students overly concerned with partying. It seems more and more the two are quite similar in that they have equally problematic drawbacks.</p>
<p>It's also about the program you want. Not everyone wants to go to business school and become filthy rich. The best creative writing program is at the University of Iowa; the best art program is at the Art Institute of Chicago; there are great education schools all over (UCLA); there are great medical schools all over (Mayo Clinic in MN comes to mind), etc. etc. etc. If you're goal in life is to crunch numbers at Goldman Sachs and make seven figures a year, then an ivy league is probably the right choice. But for those of us with other aspirations in life, we don't need to go to an ivy league school and would often prefer not to.</p>
<p>This is really a pointless argument seeing that everyone is different and has different wants and needs.</p>
<p>So nspeds, I take it you didnt get into Rice then? You're FROM Houston, asked your transfer chances for getting into rice, and then ended up going to an out of state school not as prestigious as Rice. This would explain your insecurities.</p>
<p>Oh, and NOBODY retakes the SAT and goes from 590 to 800 in a section.</p>
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So nspeds, I take it you didnt get into Rice then? You're FROM Houston, asked your transfer chances for getting into rice, and then ended up going to an out of state school not as prestigious as Rice
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<p>Uhh... Georgetown has more national recognition than Rice. Georgetown also ranks higher than Rice in revealed preference data on cross-admits.</p>
<p>By the way, I got into Rice, Georgetown, and Chicago. </p>
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Oh, and NOBODY retakes the SAT and goes from 590 to 800 in a section.
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<p>This is pretty much the stupidest statement I have ever read on CC.</p>
<p>Have you met everyone who earned an 800 on the verbal section of the SAT? No. So how would you know?</p>
<p>That's my first point. The second one is: you have no idea why I scored a 590 on my first try of the verbal (if you can call it a try. I was sort of hungover and I didn't really care).</p>
<p>The third is: even if I did try oh so hard on my first attempt, what prevents me from scoring an 800? I'm not going to fax you score reports just to prove my point, because I don't respect you, and I have no reason to desire your respect. The fact that I got into schools to which you couldn't even dream of applying demonstrates that I had something going for me. I'm Indian, from an upper-middle class, had a minor legacy at Rice and Georgetown, and my HS GPA wasn't spectacular.</p>
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Oh, and NOBODY retakes the SAT and goes from 590 to 800 in a section.
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<p>NOBODY gets a 3.4 GPA at A&M. A&M is a joke; only stupid people earn below a 3.7.</p>
<p>Its a little less prestigious, and considering Rice is where he originally wanted to go anyway, Im <em>probably</em> correct that he didnt get in Rice. He'll deny it either way though.</p>
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There's not just a higher concentration of intelligence and motivation. There's also a higher concetration of condescending, arrogant, nerdy, grade-grubbing people.
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<p>...an unsubstantiated generalization.</p>
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I agree as well.
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<p>And predictably, katho is there to pick it up, just because it agrees with her beliefs – unsubstantiated as they also may be.</p>
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nspeds, why did you post a link that completely reinforced every argument I've made this entire thread?
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<p>Contrary to your position, Vyse, I'm not here to boast about myself, or to demonstrate that I'm better than you, or that I'm here because "I want a fight." I'm arguing in search of the truth, regardless of whose point it proves. I have no problem with admitting a mistake, as I did here:</p>
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Shoot, I guess you're right. My apologies. I must have misread. It seems that we've been arguing past each other. At any rate, whether it matters do you or not, top schools are still highly recruited.
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Please do not make these negative generalizations about all the kids that are attending Ivies. It's a double-edged sword -- it's making you a very "condescending [and] arrogant" person.
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<p>Thank you. This is exactly what I am talking about.</p>
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It's also about the program you want. Not everyone wants to go to business school and become filthy rich.
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Its a little less prestigious, and considering Rice is where he originally wanted to go anyway, Im <em>probably</em> correct that he didnt get in Rice. He'll deny it either way though.
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<p>Yes, I was rejected on my first attempt, but I got in on my second. Not bad for a schools ranked significantly here than yours, right?</p>
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Its a little less prestigious,
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<p>Yeah, that's not Texas distorting your impressions at all.</p>
<p>Whether or not I got into Rice is irrelevant. Georgetown is better than A&M, and I attend Georgetown. I have a facebook profile to prove it, and I think it would be absurd for you to think that I would lie about the issue. I had the same opinion about elite schools before I transferred (which is largely why I transferred), and my experience thus far has not proved me wrong.</p>
<p>Try to stay on point Vyse: I know you feel bitter because I'm more intelligent than you are, but we need to focus on the main arguments. I mean, if you want to compare intelligence: let's compare IQ scores, GPAs, and LSAT scores. I probably beat you in all those categories.</p>
<p>But that's not the point.</p>
<p>And also, try reading <em>all</em> my posts before making a claim about my stats. Though you may be too dumb to realize this, stats change over time!</p>
<p>Sounds like you got rejected to Rice twice. Bummer. And when you were my age you went to a no name school. Double bummber. And you got a 590 on SAT verbal, lmao.</p>
<p>And Rice>georgetown in the U.S. news rankings, it has nothing to do with texas.</p>
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Sounds like you got rejected to Rice twice. Bummer. And when you were my age you went to a no name school double bummber.
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<p>What the hell? Even if I was rejected on my second-attempt, what's the point? Rice is a very selective school. My rejection has no bearing on this thread what-so-ever.</p>
<p>Also, last I checked: you don't attend Rice. Georgetown ranks higher than A&M on USNews. That's all that matters.</p>
<p>Is this the best you can do Vyse? This is pretty pathetic.</p>
<p>Sigh, I guess this is all I can expect. So much for substantive arguments.</p>
<p>I think one of the reasons the so called extrordinary students don't apply to top schools is because they are really in crappy high schools.</p>
<p>It's like putting an average ballplayer in an easy park. He will hit .300+ and hit 30+ homers. Put him in a tougher park and the guy suddenly is hitting .230 with maybe 5 homers.</p>
<p>That's not even a fair comparison. When you were a freshman, you went to a school that was less prestigious than A&M. A&M probably didnt even accept you with your pathetic 590. </p>
<p>I could do like you and transfer to a more "prestigious" school later, but unlike you, Im not so narrow sighted as to think that the only determinant of success is the USNews ranking of your undergrad alma mater.</p>