<p>Please let's not make this a jocks vs nerds battle. The point is that, at a few schools, you can see BOTH highest level academics and highest level collegiate athletics. Everybody is there for the great academics, but for some folks, the athletic part is a lot of fun and adds a lot to their undergraduate experience and lifelong relationship to the school. This is a significant benefit of the Stanford/Duke/Northwestern/Vanderbilt et al group vs. the Ivies, MIT, etc. </p>
<p>In practical terms, let’s pretend a student is looking at Dartmouth or Brown or Cornell, but also at Duke, Northwestern and Vanderbilt. Each of these schools is quite strong academically and a student can have a fabulous experience at any of them. But only at Duke can you go to basketball games at Cameron and only at Northwestern will you be able to see your Wildcats playing football against U Michigan or Ohio State and only at Vanderbilt can you see the nation’s top-ranked college baseball team. You may not care, but these on-campus activities do influence the buzz on a college campus and you’d have to be six feet under not to notice. And if you go to any of these events, chances are you will have a lot of fun and have memories for the rest of your life. </p>
<p>College is supposed to be a place to learn, but IMO it is also meant to be fun. Talk to a UCLA grad about basketball or a Notre Dame grad about football or a Rice grad about baseball and you will likely hear the passion that I am talking about.</p>
<p>Completely agree with hawkette. As he mentioned, even if you aren't a sports fans, it's still fun going to games and traveling around your region to different schools to watch the away games. I don't think people give it a chance.</p>
<p>I don't think anyone's looking to pick a fight. I think all we're saying is that there are different definitions of "fun." The idea that fun has to come from sports, or that sports provide the /most/ fun, is only true for some people. You said that people should be thinking about fun as well as academics, and I'm saying that there is also fun outside of sports that people can look for. That is all.</p>
<p>I have season tickets for Division I college football and go to as many basketball games as I can, but I wouldn't want to go to a college obsessed with that. It's the primary turnoff from my own state university and many others.</p>
<p>danas,
Re your comments about Florida’s winning soccer team or Northwestern’s winning women’s lacrosse team, I completely understand where you are coming from. But if you were in Chicago in 2000 when Northwestern had that great run and won the Big 10 title, then I’m positive you saw some of what I am talking about. And undoubtedly for the last two years, Gainesville has been even more fun than before as the Gators have ruled basketball and football. Contrast that with a student going to U Chicago or Columbia. It’s a world of difference. That’s not to say that the student at U Chicago or Columbia is not having fun. I hope that he/she is, but this type of experience is just not available at these schools. </p>
<p>I just now saw your earlier reply about seeing you in the stands…I hope that the beer is cold and flowing…and that your team is winning. :)</p>
<p>RoughWinds,
I very much agree with you that a school should not define itself in that fashion, ie, as a place for sports and not for academics. Unfortunately, there are too many colleges that don’t have their priorities right. That is what makes this group of colleges so unique and so special. They do academics as well as any school in the country while still competing successfully in many sports with any school in the country. </p>
<p>As for fun, I fully accept your comments and fun is definitely up to the individual. But I consistently bemoan the lack of attention, in the college search process, given to non-classroom learning/experiences at colleges. I suspect you like the college sports scene as well if you’re going to so many games. So, for a high school student with similar interests, imagine going to national level football or basketball or even baseball game at your college which is also a national power academically. That’s what I am talking about. And I’m not just talking about the guys. I love women’s sports and I really admire the talent and the hard work of these kids that are playing. Plus I love going to major football games and, for me, that is definitely more a party than sporting event. The marching bands, the pageantry, the fight songs, the passion of the fans, the drama of the games and comebacks. It may not be for everyone, but I think it can be a LOT of fun.</p>
<p>
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I suspect you like the college sports scene as well if you’re going to so many games. So, for a high school student with similar interests, imagine going to national level football or basketball or even baseball game at your college which is also a national power academically.
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</p>
<p>As a college student, I like going to the games, yes. There's a difference between being an outsider who drives to and from the games, and being someone who lives inside that atmosphere, or God forbid has it all around them in class.</p>
<p>I can very much imagine it. That's why I'd rather do something else. I would not assume that someone not wanting that environment means they haven't given it any thought; in fact, in most cases, I imagine they don't want it /because/ they've given it thought. It goes back to that whole idea that fun for you doesn't equal fun for me.</p>
<p>I think that the sports-interested students at Stanford/Duke/Northwestern/Vanderbilt et al have their priorities straight and don't confuse the sports fun with the real reason that they are there. But that's the beauty of the places. Great students. Great academics. Great athletics. (And except for Northwestern, usually in much better weather).</p>
<p>Northwestern achieved a #30 Directors Cup ranking in large part thanks to the women's teams. Still, it is a much bigger scene for major sports than U Penn (which actually has a larger undergrad enrollment). U Penn does not draw even 10,000 fans for an Ivy League football game. By contrast, Northwestern regularly draws 3-4 times that for Big 10 games and got over 47k for the game last year against Ohio State. 8000 at Franklin Field in Philadelphia vs 30-50k at Ryan Field in Evanston is a big difference.</p>
<p>I think it is fair to say that football is a difficult sport for all of the top privates that are trying to play in the major conferences. Stanford/Duke/Northwestern/Vanderbilt are all currently the weakest or among the weakest in their respective conferences. Stanford/Duke/Vanderbilt are each about 6500 students and Northwestern is a little more than 8000 and these colleges compete week in, week out with schools that have enrollments that are 3-4-5-even 6 times larger. Notre Dame, with 8300 students, is clearly the exception and is a national power. It's not an accident that Stanford/Duke/Northwestern/Vanderbilt do better in other sports that require fewer athletes. But while winning is probably more fun than losing, the atmosphere is the neat thing for me. Tailgate at Stanford/Cal or Duke/UNC or Vanderbilt/Tennessee and you will see a major league party. You just can’t find anything like that at U Penn or Cornell or any of the Ivies or top privates of the Northeast.</p>
<p>And let's not forget the games. Duke basketball at Cameron is such a thrilling place to be and their games with U North Carolina (and others) are consistently drama-filled and very, very exciting. Stanford basketball also has been very strong and exciting with multiple appearances in the NCAA tournaments and #1 ranking a few years back. And Vanderbilt fans loved dancing on their court with the school's President in the aftermath of their basketball victory over Florida. Again, you just can't find anything like this in the Ivy League.</p>
<p>Here's a true story for all you who disrespect NU football. The day was Saturday, October 5, 1996. Michigan's season had been rather good up to that point. We had beaten a top 5 Colorado in Boulder and solid Boston College and UCLA teams in Ann Arbor. Michigan entered the Northwestern game ranked #6 in the nation. Northwestern was no slouch either back then. They had beaten us the year before in Ann Arbor and were ranked #22 in the nation. </p>
<p>Anyway, enough of this background information. I was working for Lehman Brother's in London at the time. I took a break from work (yeah, IBankers work on Saturdays) to watch the game live at a local bar. This was a rare occation, but they did occasionally show college football games. The game started as I expected. Michigan took a 16-0 lead and entered the 4th quarter with that comfortable lead. Unfortunately, the Wildcats had something altogether different in mind. They scored 2 TDs and a FG within 8 minutes to win the game 17-16. I was really depressed (as I am after any Michigan loss), so I decided to treat myself to a very nice dinner at my favorite restaurant in London, "The Square". Luckily, they had a table for a lonely Wolverine in need of cheering up. I ordered what promissed to be a very nice 5 course dinner and waited with eager anticipation for the plates to come rolling in. Between the Amuse Gueule and my first course (a very sensitive time for any avid foodie such as myself), this guy from the table next to mine leans back and asks me if I went to Michigan. I guess he noticed the big, golden, obnoxious Block M on my class ring. I proudly answered "yes". The guy smiles sheepishly and says "I went to Northwestern, we just beat you!" </p>
<p>Football and basketball are the main sports that create school spirit. The director's cup includes all NCAA sports and is not the best indicator since most generate little interest from students. Below are the schools that are ranked in last years top 25 for both USNews and top 25 in football and/or basketball.</p>
<p>Duke, basketball
Notre Dame, basketball, football
U California, football
U Michigan, football</p>
<p>Notre Dame and Cal are less consistent in their sports teams. Duke is the best academic basketball school and Michigan is the best academic football school. This makes sense on a gut level as well.</p>
<p>After digging a little further into Duke and Michigan, they seem to be well matched at the university level as well. They both have highly regarded business, law and medical schools though Michigan has the edge in engineering. Duke obviously has the advantage in undergrad because it is much smaller.</p>
<p>Duke basketball vs. Michigan football is probably a toss-up ...</p>
<p>Would you rather jump up and down the whole game with the Cameron crazies or sing "Hail to the Victors" at the Big House?</p>
<p>theres nothing like Gainseville on gameday....My parents are season ticket holders so i go to all the games...even got to go the BCS national championship game. Im applying to UF this year so hopefully i can be part of the greatest game atmosphere in the nation.</p>
<p>College hockey, at the places where it is played well and the fans are into it, is as fun as college football or basketball. I know that isn't a factor everywhere, but you gotta give hockey some props.</p>
<p>Alexandre,
Great story. Thanks for sharing it. It really illustrates the school spirit that is common at these schools, the passion that alumni feel years after their departure and the ongoing connection that big-time sports plays in keeping the graduate connected to the school in a positive way. The Northwestern grads are probably still reminding their U Michigan buddies and work colleagues about that comeback.</p>
<p>Agree with hoedowon on the hockey and also include baseball in this as college baseball has gotten much broader TV coverage over the last decade. I'm sure that Rice fans enjoyed seeing the Owls battling in the College World Series this year.</p>