Fabulous Academics…and Fun! Excitement! Drama!

College Search & Selection
41

<p>I went to UCDavis, hubby went to Cal, my daughter is going to UCLA. Parents day is the UCLA/Cal game at the rose bowl. YEAH!!!</p>

<p>Back in the day UCDavis was division III, and I know I spent more time at football games (every home game) than my husband did at Cal, so division III sports teams can bring spirit to the school, and if you don't like college sports you can ignore them like my husband did at his four years at Cal.</p>

<p>Despite getting a master's at Stanford, my husband still will root for Cal in the big game. Two years ago Davis started moving toward division I, and that included playing Stanford for out of conference games in football, men's basketball, and baseball. Davis swept Stanford that year, to the terrible embarrassment of Stanford. At the big game between Cal and Stanford that year the Cal students would cheer "U C ......DAVIS!" Yep, we UCs stick together.</p>

42

<p>"College hockey, at the places where it is played well and the fans are into it, is as fun as college football or basketball. I know that isn't a factor everywhere, but you gotta give hockey some props."</p>

<p>I think people who like sports at all, generally, tend to get themselves excited about whatever their college is actually good at. By this coping mechanism, they still get as much "Fun! Excitement! Drama!" as they want. At least they do in some cases I'm familiar with .</p>

<p>In the midwest, when I was there, U Nebraska was great at football, up and down in basketball. Everyone in the state of Nebraska piled into the football stadium come Saturday. In contrast, basketball had spotty turnout.</p>

<p>On the other hand, U Kansas was great in basketball, bad in football. Predictably, people there professed not to care about football at all, but every basketball game Allen Fieldhouse was packed to capacity with rabid fans from all over the region.</p>

<p>Both groups got their "Fun! Excitement! Drama!", but they got their fix differently.</p>

<p>There is nothing fundamentally special about these two sports, though, when one needs to look further to get one's fix. Sports fans at schools who do well in other sports just emphasize those. I went to a school (Cornell) that emphasized hockey and lacrosse, and those games were plenty exciting for those interested. At the time, anyway. In particular, the hockey games were every bit the equal, in drama and atmosphere, of the basketball games at Allen Fieldhouse. Which is itself allegedly one of the premier "hornet's nest" venues for basketball. Contrary to post #12, there WAS a student-body unifying interest in these two sports there; muted only somewhat by the fact that students there cared much more about academics than sports generally.</p>

<p>Some of my daughter's soccer games when she was in elementary school were also just as exciting. What matters to make it exciting is not the absolute talent level so much as that the teams are well matched and the games are close. For this reason, fans at Division III schools may have just as much "Fun! Excitement! Drama! as fans at Division I schools.</p>

<p>The list of schools where the "Fun! Excitement! Drama!" itch can be satisfactorily scratched is probably far longer than the above, due to this coping mechanism and the similar intrinsic nature of many sports, not just two.</p>

<p>Suggest you ask about what's big at a particular school, and how big that is there, rather than just pre-narrowing your blinders to Div I football. You might be inappropriately restricting yourself.</p>

43

<p>At most division 1 schools, football and basketball generate so much school spirit (and money) that they provide funding for all other college sports. Duke and Michigan have the most hi profile combination of athletics and academics because one is a basketball powerhouse and one is a football powerhouse (in addition to having highly ranked academics).</p>

<p>Every school has school spirit and you should all be proud of your schools athletic programs. However, on a national level, college football and basketball dominate. I suspect it is partly because there is no minor league football or basketball. Thus, college level football and basketball is the highest it can be for atheletes of that age. In contrast the minor leagues for hockey and baseball suck up much of the talent from high school.</p>

44

<p>monydad,
I think you make several good observations that excitement and drama can be found in the sporting programmes of many environments (though you may stretch credulity when you extend it to elementary school girls soccer). But I would argue that the scale and the quality and the national implications of the event impacts mightily the nature and intensity of the experience and that the scene at these national-level events differs quite a bit from a Cornell hockey game. </p>

<p>A key aspect of my argument is that these experiences are there for the average student and not just the sports fan. Women might even enjoy these events more than men. Go to a Stanford or Duke or Northwestern or Vanderbilt football game and check out the tailgate scene or go to an away football game, eg,Stanford at USC or UCLA or Duke at Florida State or Clemson or Northwestern at Michigan or Ohio State, or Vanderbilt at Tennessee or Georgia, and you will see an event that blows any Ivy sporting event completely out of the water. It's a happening and a party on a scale that the Ivies can only dream of. </p>

<p>As for the wins and the losses, Stanford/Duke/Northwestern/Vanderbilt usually aren't big winners in football, but who cares. Personally, I'm much more interested in the drama and the fun and the colors and the uniforms and the pageantry of the football game than the outcome of the game. But at games with huge attendance and regional or national TV coverage, there is a great buzz in the air. It can be incredibly fun and makes you care 20-30-40-50 years later when the school is playing again. If you don't believe me, just look at Alexandre's post above about U Michigan football. I bet he's on the internet every Saturday night or Sunday morning in the fall to see how his Wolverines did. </p>

<p>As for your comments about Kansas or Nebraska, you make my point for me. While certainly good state universities with good athletic programs (Nebraska was 27th in the Directors Cup and Kansas was 66th), no one is confusing these schools with the absolute finest academic colleges in the country. That is part of what makes Stanford/Duke/Northwestern/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame so special. They are the gold standard for the universities that achieve at the highest levels in both academics and athletics.</p>

45

<p>"you make my point for me. "</p>

<p>MY point was that fans rally around whatever sport their school is good in. Unless that is also YOUR point, then YOUR point is made on your own, by you.</p>

<p>"..the scale and the quality and the national implications of the event impacts mightily the nature and intensity of the experience and that the scene at these national-level events differs quite a bit from a Cornell hockey game."</p>

<p>Not to the fans in the stands it doesn't. You clearly haven't been to a Cornell hockey game. I assure you that, when I was there, it was every bit the equal of a basketball game played at KU's Allen fieldhouse. As I've experienced these two events personally.</p>

<p>"(though you may stretch credulity when you extend it to elementary school girls soccer). "</p>

<p>It's no stretch whatsoever. In actually elementary school girls soccer was the more intense experience. There was more at stake than just sport. You clearly have never been a parent of one of the players.</p>

46

<p>I saw couple college football magazines couple days ago and they predicted Northwestern would be ranked around #6 within Big10, better than 4 stats schools that are much bigger.. It's very capable of making surprises.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The best part about Northwestern football is nearly always being the underdog, and losing and winning in the most hilarious ways possible.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree. That's because Northwestern usually has decent offense but they don't seem to play any defense. They don't grind with opponents. They just hit back right at you quickly after they give up points quickly. It's kinda sloppy but exciting and very fun to watch! :D</p>

47

<p>monydad,
Glad you enjoyed the Cornell hockey games and the elementary girls soccer games, but we disagree on all of your points and you have made inaccurate assumptions about what I have experienced.</p>

<p>I and/or close family members have been to plenty of Ivy sporting events-Harvard-Yale football, U Penn basketball at the Palestra, hockey games involving elite (but non-Ivy) NE schools (Williams-Amherst), even several Ivy lacrosse games involving Cornell. I/we have also been to many ACC basketball games, Big 10 and Pac 10 football games, SEC and CWS baseball games. And LOL, I have been to plenty of elementary girls soccer games. </p>

<p>Based on what I saw, I would liken the atmosphere at the Ivy athletic events more to that of the elementary girls soccer games than to football and basketball games of the major conferences. Cornell may be a great academic school, but (like all of the Ivies), it can't hold a candle to the atmosphere of sporting events regularly found at Stanford/Duke/Northwestern/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame/UC Berkeley/U Michigan/U Virginia/UCLA/USC/etc.</p>

48

<p>Actually I might make an exception for Cornell Hockey. Back in 2006 UW played Cornell for the trip to the NCAA Hockey Championship and it was an insane triple overtime game.
Regional Championship Game:
Wisconsin 1 - Cornell 0 (3OT)</p>

49

<p>I remember attending a Harvard-Yale football game a few years back. There were about 100 people in the stands watching the game. However, there were thousands of people outside the stadium tail-gating, attending alumni gatherings and just having a good time.</p>

<p>It was a decidedly different type of school spirit than when I attended Michigan football games packed with 100,000 screaming fans who actually understand what is happening on the field. Both types of school spirit are good, just different.</p>

<p>Monydad, please tell me you are not one of the crazed soccer parents who yell at the referees or berate the oppposing 8 year olds for possible fouls :)</p>

50

<p>"Actually I might make an exception for Cornell Hockey. Back in 2006 UW played Cornell for the trip to the NCAA Hockey Championship and it was an insane triple overtime game.
Regional Championship Game:
Wisconsin 1 - Cornell 0 (3OT)"</p>

<p>Good to hear that this is still the case. But my main point was not so much that this particular program is still what it was when I was in school. It was more that, based on my experience, there are probably a number of less-obvious programs and schools that might scratch one's itch sufficiently in this regard. Depending of course on precisely the nature of one's itch.</p>

<p>"I remember attending a Harvard-Yale football game a few years back. ..."</p>

<p>Good to hear that there's spirit there too- of a sorts. But at least at Cornell when I was there, this would not be nearly the same thing. Because nobody cared about football, but they did care about hockey. And most of their hockey competition was outside of the Ivy League.</p>

<p>"Monydad, please tell me you are not one of the crazed soccer parents who yell at the referees or berate the oppposing 8 year olds for possible fouls "</p>

<p>Mostly parents just yell at their own kids. In my case I would try to convey to her, sometimes, when perhaps she was out of position and the like. But to be heard one had to yell...</p>

<p>On the other hand, her coach used to scream bloody murder at his daughter, not just regarding her positioning, and it was downright embarrassing sometimes.</p>

<p>But the fact that grown men would be moved to conduct themselves like this, given the context, is clear indication of just how intense a spectator experience such events can be, for those spectators anyway.</p>

<p>Even without the connection though, honestly the games really were hotly-contested and quite exciting. They had a great team.</p>

51

<p>I played soccer for many years, and knew that the noise one hears from coaches and parents on the sidelines sounds suspiciously like the adults in the Peanuts cartoons. And yet, when I started coaching little kids it was very hard to not yell something, despite knowing they wouldn't hear me. Now my daughters have passed up my coaching expertise, so I referee the under 8 year olds. And yes, the spectators are taking this much more seriously than the players.</p>

52

<p>Cornell and Wisconsin also played in one of the best hockey games I have seen. A brief summary from a fan site:</p>

<p>"Another huge NCAA Tournament game for the Badgers was also against Cornell, this time in 1973. The Badgers were losing in the semifinals to Cornell 4-0 at one point in the second period. They scored a couple times but Cornell got another one to make it 5-2 in the third. The Badgers then scored 3 goals, including one with the goalie pulled and only a couple seconds left to force overtime. Dean Talafous scored in overtime to give the Badgers a thrilling 6-5 win at a game that looked hopeless only a short time ago. The Badgers went on to win their first ever national title the next day."</p>

53

<p>FWIW, there are some clips on Youtube that give some flavor:
"Cornell vs Harvard 2003"
"Memories of Lynah Rink 06/07 " Parts 1 & 2.
etc.</p>

<p>I'm not saying this is great sport . Or that it's the biggest event on earth. And I don't condone everything going on there;In some sense it's an advertisement for "jouveniles behaving badly".</p>

<p>But I think one can get a sense from these clips that the people in the stands are having a pretty darned good time. I personally don't think these people would be having a much better time if they were at a Duke basketball game, or a Texas football game, instead. YMMV. It is pretty much totally analogous to what I experienced watching games at Allen Fieldhouse at U Kansas, watching a team with 5 future NBA players on it. Whether the level of sporting talent was equivalent or not, the fan experience was. Actually I think it was, slightly, better at Cornell.</p>

<p>I'm sure fans at other programs of various types may get just about the same experience too. Or close enough to be satisfied with what they're getting.</p>

54

<p>Just to give one recent example of the scale of athletic achievement by some of these well-balanced schools, consider Wake Forest. IMO, Wake Forest is a very underrated university and its athletic program truly competes on a national level. (Beyond that, its campus is as pretty as anything you’ll find anywhere in New England.) </p>

<p>With an undergrad population only slightly larger than Dartmouth (4332 vs. 4085), Wake won the ACC in football beating Florida State, BC, Clemson, Ga Tech and closed the season in front of 75,000 fans and a national TV audience in the Orange Bowl on New Years Day (lost to U Louisville). Meanwhile, Dartmouth was losing to Colgate and Holy Cross and all the other Ivies except for Columbia which it beat in NYC before a crowd of 3647. </p>

<p>Granted, Wake’s football history is not exceptional and perhaps this was a flash in the pan, but can anyone imagine Dartmouth (or any of the Ivies for that matter) accomplishing what Wake did this past year? Me neither. Do you think that the kids at Wake had an absolute blast last season on this unexpected ride? Yeah, me too. Did any of those students go to Wake because it’s a football factory? Get outta here.</p>

55

<p>Folks, let's temper this "rah-rah" mentality with a little bit of reality (call it cynicism if you want, but there is at least a kernel of truth here)</p>

<p>At what point does increased exposure, on a national - heck, international - level, of a school's sports program (at least for the BIG TIME MONEY sports like football, basketball, baseball) start ebbing away at that school's academic reputation?</p>

<ul>
<li>Michigan football</li>
<li>Notre Dame football</li>
<li>Georgetown basketball</li>
<li>Duke basketball</li>
</ul>

<p>All great schools. No question. But at what point do those storied athletic programs begin to overshadow the academic reputation of those schools in question?</p>

<p>Drama indeed.</p>

56

<p>monydad,
If you want to see a real wild (and unbelievably great) scene, just watch the ESPN classic of "the play" from cal-stanford and the drive that preceded it. Enjoy the youtube video. It's one in a billion.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the+play+cal+stanford%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=the+play+cal+stanford&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Now compare the call and the scene and the crowd and the excitement to what you saw on the Cornell-Harvard hockey game. The difference is immense.</p>

57

<p>November 24th BU v Cornell @ Madison Square Garden. It's on.</p>

58

<p>The_prestige,
Come on. Lighten up. The fact is that these are all great, great schools-all of the Ivies and the schools that I posted earlier on The Honor Roll. Frankly, you sound a little jealous that the Ivy folks are missing out on all of the fun. :)</p>

<p>And please don’t go throwing any stones suggesting that these schools are compromising themselves by pursuing athletic excellence (plus we all know how pure the Ivy League is when it comes to recruiting). Come on. Give ‘em a little credit. I bet the graduation rates of their athletes are higher in most cases than their general student bodies and that their athletes do very, very well in postgraduate life (and perhaps including the NFL, NBA, Baseball). </p>

<p>Stanford/Duke/Northwestern/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame et al are all excellent schools that can compete with the Ivies in the classroom, but they offer a side that the Ivies will never again be able to. Perhaps back in the 1930s or 1940s, the Ivies could claim athletic strength, but many, many other schools have passed them by. And more recently, more schools are reaching the level of the Ivies in terms of academic prominence and student quality. The Ivies will always have their history and their prestige and they are all terrific academic institutions, but give a few props to these other fine schools. They’ve built their academic and athletic reputations the old-fashioned way and they deserve your applause rather than your scorn. </p>

<p>But more important than the outcomes of their games, it is the scene that they are a part of that so excites me. Going to these games can be so much fun. There is a reason that you’ll find Duke-UNC basketball or Cal-Stanford football tickets offered on eBay for multi-thousands of dollars. These are GREAT experiences.</p>

59

<p>re #57, I have reviewed this. From what I can tell the Cornell fans appear to be more boisterous on a per capita basis, and are probably having as good a time. Or at least a good enough time for the purposes of many, which was my point. There are of course fewer of them, but they are closer to the ice and the overall noise level in the rink is huge. Of course the videos I referenced were not of the most momentous play in college hockey history, just regular games. </p>

<p>I referenced those clips so people could judge whether that level of fan interest/ environment would meet their needs, not to suggest that it is the greatest venue in the history of sports.</p>

<p>It was enough for me. It evidently is not enough for you. Other readers/viewers may decide for themselves.</p>

60

<p>Another few videos for your viewing pleasure:</p>

<p>DUKE-Kentucky (A Classic)
<a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=duke+basketball+laettner+shot+kentucky&btnG=Google+Search%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=duke+basketball+laettner+shot+kentucky&btnG=Google+Search&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Florida-VANDERBILT (2007)
<a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GFRC_enUS206US206&q=vanderbilt+florida+basketball+youtube%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GFRC_enUS206US206&q=vanderbilt+florida+basketball+youtube&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>NOTRE DAME-Michigan State (2006)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87OXLHice8s&mode=related&search=%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87OXLHice8s&mode=related&search=&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>USC-UCLA
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo3WdaKD8V0%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo3WdaKD8V0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And there's plenty more out there, but I think you get the idea. The athletic scene at these schools, which are superb academic institutions and all ranked in the USNWR Top 25, can be a lot of fun even if you're not a sports fan.</p>

<p>monydad,
I think you Ivy guys are scared to admit that you might actually enjoy a game like Cal-Stanford or Duke-U North Carolina in basketball because if you admit that, then that might somehow be admitting that these were better places than Cornell or whatever Ivy you attended. That's not my point. I'm not trying to make you or anyone else feel bad. I am trying to highlight the positive with these other schools. Maybe they would not have been right for you and certainly they are not right for everybody (where is??), but I think that students too often neglect understanding what a school is all about out of the classroom and how it stays with you for the rest of your life. These schools, like the Ivies, are terrific schools, but they have this side which makes them more attractive to some students.</p>

<p>Anyway, thanks for looking at the videos and good luck to the Big Red against BU.</p>