<p>what exactly is there to be jealous of? going to a school known more for its sports rather than its academics? count me out.</p>
<p>let's face it, 40, 50 years ago, there were true student-athletes. nowadays, you are telling me that 6'5" 275 lb linebacker from Michigan is also a Rhodes Scholar candidate? you're telling me those hoopers on UNC or Duke are gonna be applying to Harvard Law School?</p>
<p>the average students at those schools have absolutely nothing to do with the elite athletes which help fuel those sports programs. let's face it, everyone is in on the joke, stop pretending you don't see the white elephant staring you in the face. yes, i'll say it, they sold out their academic integrity in pursuit of that next national championship -- and they did it years ago, so who are we kidding?</p>
<p>"I think you Ivy guys are scared to admit that you might actually enjoy a game like Cal-Stanford or Duke-U North Carolina in basketball "</p>
<p>As I think I've already indicated, I recently left the midwest, where I saw a number of big 12 games in person. For one, the KU-MU basketball rivalry is considered in those parts to be as heated as there is, and I saw that. </p>
<p>I loved watching those games, they were great. KU went something like 34-2 one year, before getting upset by Arizona in the tournament, along with all the other #1 seeds. And I think one of those losses was to MU, as per typical in the ongoing "border war".</p>
<p>To me, the games there, while great, were not any better than Cornell hockey games though.</p>
<p>Once again, YMMV.</p>
<p>I have never seen Duke- North Carolina in person, so I can't comment on that. It would be interesting to ask Roy Williams which he thought was the hotter rivalry from a fan's perspective, that or KU-MU. It would not surprise me if his answer did not go the way you'd think. The big 12 tends to be under-reported on the coasts.</p>
<p>I do agree with the-prestige though, I do not have nearly the dog in this hunt that you appear to have. Go to Vanderbilt, if you think that will float your boat better. I really don't care.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I remember attending a Harvard-Yale football game a few years back. There were about 100 people in the stands watching the game. However, there were thousands of people outside the stadium tail-gating, attending alumni gatherings and just having a good time.
[/quote]
Did you only stay for the first three minutes? While it's true that the "major" (i.e. against Princeton and Harvard) Yale football games I've attended start with most people outside tailgating (which, at least at Yale home games, is as much fun as the tailgates I've been to at UCLA), by the end of the first quarter, the stands are pretty full (Harvard-Yale was a sellout this year, with the stands as packed as they could be). Though I admittedly haven't been to a major conference rivalry game since I was about 8 (Stanford-Cal), Yale-Princeton and Yale-Harvard were as much fun for me as the several UCLA football games I've been to (including a UCLA-Cal game that, in pure football terms, was one of the most exciting games I've seen). It may not be Michigan-Ohio State in terms of national implications or size of the stadium, but Harvard-Yale is a huge event on campus (with at least half the student body traveling to the other school when the game is away) and ensures that those of us who enjoy sports events, but don't need the weekly major national contests of people at SEC schools, can still meet our sports needs with Ivy League athletics.
Basically, hawkette, I understand your point, but it's not really that big a deal for casual sports fans, and even for me, as someone who gets pretty interested in college football and basketball, I never feel like I'm missing out by being at Yale.</p>
<p>Many of the better sports schools-Michigan, Florida, Wisconsin, Cal, UCLA, UNC, UVa are not having their academic reputation hurt by having strong athletic programs. </p>
<p>And before painting big-time athletes with a broad brush you might consider:</p>
<p>Prestige,
Come on. I can’t believe you are really suggesting that these schools-Stanford/Duke/Northwestern/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame-have sold out their academic integrity. Nothing could be further from the truth. Why do you feel the need to put them down? Do they threaten you? They are great schools and fun places to go to college. </p>
<p>These five universities, along with Rice, are all ranked in the Top 20 and are wonderful examples of how colleges can blend top academics and top athletics. And the part I like is that, even if they don’t win much in football, they put on a great show that can be enjoyed by all-male, female, young, old, fan, non-fan. If you don’t want to go to such games, fine and good luck. But if you do or if you’re willing to see what the fuss is about, then these places might be a great college choice. </p>
<p>The fact is that there are some schools out there that can compete at the highest levels academically and athletically. It is also a fact that none of those schools are in the Ivy League.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Why do you feel the need to put them down?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've already noted - several times - that many of these schools are outstanding academically, so please don't try and paint my comments in a one-dimensional light for your purposes. I'd expect better from you having read many of your posts. So let's cease the strawman attacks.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The fact is that there are some schools out there that can compete at the highest levels academically and athletically.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not really. Stanford, Northwestern, Duke -- I'd argue those schools can make a strong case for being at the highest levels academically. But at the highest levels athletically? What's the definition of that exactly? A national championship? Jeez, by that standard, Princeton should be right up there since the Tigers have won 6 lacrosse national championships since 1992 (including 2 runner-ups) and have won more lacrosse national championships than any other program except 2 others (Hopkins and Syracuse) -- more than Virginia, more than UNC, more than Maryland.</p>
<p>You've got to keep your hyperboles in check my friend. When is the last time Stanford won a major national championship other than some obscure sport? I'm talking the BIG TIME MONEY sports like football, basketball or baseball? Same for Northwestern? Same for Notre Dame?</p>
<p>...and bear in mind that Princeton accomplished its championships without a single athletic scholarship given... so while you are at the extreme end flying your anti-Ivy flag and accusing me of being unfair, why don't you take a look at how your anti-Ivy sentiment has skewed your perspective... so, i absolutely agree, let's give some credit where credit is due.</p>
<p>monydad,
I’m sure that the KU-MU rivalry was heated and great. Now imagine combining that with academics at the level of the very best academic colleges in the country. That is what I’m talking about. It is a really neat combination and not many schools have it.</p>
<p>Svalbardlutefisk,
Thanks for your reasoned comments and glad that you like Yale. But imagine combining the academics of Yale with the athletic scene of UCLA. Could be a pretty powerful combination, huh? </p>
<p>Every student going through the college search process makes his/her own choices about what they are looking for in a college. Top academics is almost always at the top of the list, but if a school can meet this need, and provide something more that is of interest to the student (great arts scene, great access to a city, great social scene, great athletic scene), then I want to encourage that student to think about his/her life outside of the classroom. On the combination of great academic/great athletic scenes, IMO these colleges present a superior package to the Ivies. For the record, those colleges which are highly ranked by USNWR and the Directors Cup standings are:</p>
<p>Stanford (#4 USNWR and #1 Directors Cup)
Duke (#8 USNWR and #11 Directors Cup)
Northwestern (#14 USNWR and #30 Directors Cup)
Vanderbilt (#18 USNWR and #33 Directors Cup)
Notre Dame (#20 USNWR and #22 Directors Cup)
UC Berkeley (#21 USNWR and #9 Directors Cup)
U Michigan (#24 USNWR and #4 Directors Cup)
U Virginia (#24 USNWR and #13 Directors Cup)
UCLA (#26 USNWR and #2 Directors Cup)
USC (#27 USNWR and #5 Directors Cup)
U NORTH CAROLINA (#27 USNWR and #3 Directors Cup)
WAKE FOREST (#30 USNWR and #23 Directors Cup)
U WISCONSIN (#34 USNWR and #16 Directors Cup)
GEORGIA TECH (#38 USNWR and #46 Directors Cup)
U WASHINGTON (#42 USNWR and #29 Directors Cup)
U FLORIDA (#47 USNWR and #6 Directors Cup)
U Texas (#47 USNWR and #8 Directors Cup)</p>
<p>Stanford: Men's Golf this year, Women's Tennis last year
Duke: Women's golf this year
Northwestern: Bowl game in 2005, Women's Lax this year (and the previous 2), Women's softball this year</p>
<p>Duke-Carolina rivalry extends to all sports and both schools are usually in the top10 in the Directors Cup. For selective LAC'S at Div1 level, Holy Cross and Bucknell have a strong basketball rivalry with the chance to go to the NCAA'S(Holy Cross won in 2007) . On A Div3 level-Amherst-Williams football game is fantastic. Also schools like Duke, Holy Cross, Notre Dame, Williams, Amherst all have very strong alumni giving rates in the 50% range.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many people. Who's heard of the Ivy League, let alone, who cares?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The same percentage of the general public that has heard of the USNWR rankings is likely to be similar to the percentage of the CC community that has heard of the Director's Cup...</p>
<p>in either case, its a pretty small number, and more to the point, doesn't matter and is irrelevant.</p>
<p>(p.s. plenty of people have "heard" of the Ivy League even if they can't name all 8 schools)</p>
<p>Ah, Prestige,
Why are we fighting on this? I think the comment, </p>
<p>“let's face it, everyone is in on the joke, stop pretending you don't see the white elephant staring you in the face. yes, i'll say it, they sold out their academic integrity in pursuit of that next national championship -- and they did it years ago, so who are we kidding?” </p>
<p>would be considered as an attack and that is what prompted my comments. If I misinterpreted your meaning, then forgive me.</p>
<p>As for the athletic achievement comments, I agree with your point that many of these schools have not done much in football (although it was earlier pointed out that 9 of the USNWR Top 25 were in the Top 25 in basketball). I admire that these schools can compete at the highest level across a broad spectrum of sports including a couple that are pretty prominent (basketball, baseball) and occasionally in football. But what I’ve tried to communicate is my love for the event and the scene and less for the winning. It is the existence of that scene and that atmosphere that I consider special and which the Ivies are not able to match. </p>
<p>As for Princeton’s lacrosse achievements, I think that’s great. Princeton was 63rd in this year’s Directors Cup Final Standings. I am a fan and a supporter of the Tigers and have many good Princeton friends. I have nothing against Princeton nor any of the Ivies. However, I do think that a lot of other schools around the country get overlooked by those in the Northeast and that may prompt some frustration on my part with this mindset. But no, I am not anti-Ivy. I am pro-these other, less recognized schools, specifically Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Emory, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame. It just so happens that many of them (but not Rice this year, nor Div3 Emory) did very well in the Directors Cup and distinguished themselves in a way that is superior to any of the Ivy colleges. It’s not a huge deal, but I think it’s kind of cool.</p>