Facts about different ethnicities !!!

Colleges and Universities A-Z Stanford University
61

<p>people need to open their eyes and stop letting their emotions do the thinking.</p>

<p>affirmative action is racial discrimination. you can try to rationalize it all you want- but at the end of the day, affirmative action is basically giving one candidate an advantage over another due to race. i don't care what you claim the benefits are- using racial discrimination in any way is wrong.
it would indeed be ironic, wouldn't it, if universities used racial discrimination to fix the wrongs caused by past racial discrimination? or is it that you must fight fire with fire?</p>

<p>"you multitude of asians with amazing test scores need to realize that cultural background and the diversity coming from it can be more important than 50 SAT points. A campus full of 60% asians or whatever would be dry and without the cultural richness of african americans, white americans, nicaraguans, canadians, australians, russians etc. Its not just about scores, about academics even. Its about life, and preparing students for success in the real world so that they can help our world become a better place. If that means that some asians get denied for the benefit of a more culturally rich campus, then so be it. Its not like theres no hope for a student with perfect test scores if they dont go to Stanford. I just think that a child growing up in a purely asian community, even if they are better at schoolwork/SAT's, doesnt benefit him/her nearly enough as a child growing up in a global environment of many races and peoples so that in the future they have a better understanding of our world, not just books."</p>

<p>Colleges are already a mix of many cultures and people. The unspoken assumption by all affirmative action proponents is that unless there is a campus is 10% black, 10% hispanic, and 2-3% Native American, there will be a lack of diversity. Has there been some remarkable study conducted that shows this to be the perfect mix of races that results in an optimal educational experience? Why does this mixture seem to be the best example of "culturally rich"? Would a 40% Asian population, representing a wide variety of Asian countries, in addition to white, hispanic, and black populations, be "culturally rich"? Would a campus with 60% internationals representing a wide variety of countries be "culturally rich"?</p>

<p>It's blatantly obvious that AA proponents simply want a campus reflecting America's racial percentages- and not "diversity".</p>

<p>It's simply the fact that seeing 25-40% Asians on a campus takes people out of their comfort zone. It's something many just can't deal with because they're not used to it- so they try to rationalize it with "diversity" arguments.</p>

<p>No scientifically legitimiate study has ever been done that proves significant educational benefits from "diversity". You can talk in abstractions all you want, but if it is so blatantly obvious, and affirmative action is so controversial, why don't they just shut everyone opposing AA up by conducting this study? Why not? Would it reduce racism and stereotypes? Can they prove that it is indeed a "compelling interest" with compelling benefits?</p>

<p>or do people need to be on a campus with 10% black and 10% hispanic people in order to realize that stereotypes aren't true? my question is- why in the world do you need to see examples of people who defy stereotypes to realize that they aren't true? do you need to room with a rich black person to realize that all black people aren't poor? (addressing actuarialdj's point)</p>

<p>it's easy to say oh boo hoo you damn asians need to stop crying when you're not the one being affected by it.</p>

62

<p>bob9975 - what system do you propose?</p>

63

<p>college is still school, it is not the "real world" in its full meaning. People don't have to gain admission to the real world. If people want to experience multiple cultures and the so-called real world, they should get a job, or volunteer, or take advantage of global campuses. but certain people should not be denied admission because of their race just so someone else can have fun at a "culturally diverse" campus. yes college is more "real" than high school, but it is still not the real thing, just a step closer</p>

<p>as for evig99, here's an idea, give everyone a race-blind evaluation. If someon has serious circumstances that should be considered, it will be shown in the essays. just like certain people want others to stop picking on URMs, maybe they should stop picking on asians</p>

64

<p>if it wasn't already obvious- I'd propose a system that doesn't include race.
as I've already stated the benefits of diversity are at worst imaginary, and at best negligible, and certainly not worth discriminating based on race in order to obtain.</p>

65

<p>Anyone who tries to argue that racial preferences are for diversity is missing the point. The racial imbalance in admissions is to ensure that the university looks diverse; it is a pure PR tactic.</p>

<p>Now, culture is completely different. As I said before, the culture is what will add to the campus. And Asians, on the whole, tend to be more in tune with their roots (and those roots span a huge continent) than do whites, blacks, or Hispanics (though more so the first two than the latter).</p>

66

<p>I don't get it....do Asians want schools to be completely filled with Asians...like seriously? lol...i mean 24% is the highest amount behind whites...which is probably because there is more whites in America than Asians.</p>

<p>Do people really believe that the +/-7% URM's admitted prevented you from getting into the college of your dreams...if so your grossly mistaken ...if what you want is a pure meritocracy (based on number stats)...your not going to get it..or else colleges wont consider essays, recs, or even ecs.</p>

67

<p>
[quote]

Do people really believe that the +/-7% URM's admitted prevented you from getting into the college of your dreams

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's the principle: the standards are inconsistent.</p>

68

<p>mmm ok... so what do you suggest as a solution...admit 50% white...50% asain?</p>

69

<p>no, Asians want schools that won't discriminate against you based on the color of your skin.
Asians don't particularly care what the ethnic composition of the student body is, as long as it is a merit based system</p>

<p>i love it how people are discussing it with an attitude of "how much more do you damn Asians want?" Like, oh, Asians already have 13% at Harvard, and they're only 5% of the population, so why aren't they happy?
What about granting Asians, as individuals, what they deserve, based on a system of merit that is consistent across all ethnic and racial lines? Is that too much to ask?</p>

<p>no one said "merit" had to be purely numbers</p>

<p>if you want to give URMs credit for overcoming bad circumstances to succeed, then white and Asian children should get the same type of credit if they are in similar situations.</p>

<p>playing a sports can be merit
being the leader of a club can be merit
playing an instrument can be merit
overcoming a rough childhood to succeed can be merit
but having a certain color of skin is not in the same category, and should not be considered</p>

<p>investigations years ago uncovered subconscious discrimination against Asians at schools like Brown and Stanford- whether they have actually fixed these issues as they claim is unknown.
but seriously, think about these two hypothetical candidates:</p>

<p>a. Asian with 2400 SAT, 4.0 GPA, rigorous courseload, solid recs, plays violin, tennis, and does math team.
b. White kid with 2400 SAT, 4.0 GPA, rigorous courseload, solid recs, plays violin, tennis, and does math team</p>

<p>what do you think the first reaction to each of these candidates will be, both by your average individual and by college admissions people? how will the initial reactions to these two candidates differ?</p>

<p>"mmm ok... so what do you suggest as a solution...admit 50% white...50% asain?"
I don't see how this is so hard to understand. the racial percentages of who you admit shouldn't even matter.</p>

<p>this is such a simple argument to comprehend yet its funny how people can't seem to comprehend that no, we're not in favor of setting or changing a quota on Asians.</p>

70

<p>solution = DO NOT LOOK AT RACE WHEN MAKING DECISIONS!</p>

<p>Socioeconomic factors are different from race. As people have pointed out before - there are poor asians and there are rich hispanics/blacks who do have every opportunity open to them.</p>

<p>seeing chance me threads with "oh i'm black so i'm in!!" and "i'm asian so i'm screwed" are just depressing, especially since it's true. </p>

<p>It's college, it SHOULD be a meritocracy.</p>

71

<p>exactly, people i think want to feel like they have an advantage (especially if they're URM) that they didn't need to work for. As for +/-7%, it adds up...a generation from now, kids are going to think that it is absurd that colleges ever even looked at race in admissions. We'll be like "we thought so too"</p>

72

<p>I agree with all that was said above, by cookiemom, flutterfly, bob, kyledavid, etc.</p>

<p>"I don't get it....do Asians want schools to be completely filled with Asians...like seriously? lol...i mean 24% is the highest amount behind whites...which is probably because there is more whites in America than Asians.</p>

<p>Do people really believe that the +/-7% URM's admitted prevented you from getting into the college of your dreams...if so your grossly mistaken ...if what you want is a pure meritocracy (based on number stats)...your not going to get it..or else colleges wont consider essays, recs, or even ecs."</p>

<p>That misses the point. Asians really don't care about that. The point is that the principles and concepts on which AA is based are flawed.</p>

<p>I think what was posted by kcb452 on the previous page illustrates the point:</p>

<p>"i really haven't been too disadvantaged except that all my grandparents spoke spanish, and i account that to my problems with words... other than that, noone can tell i'm hispanic,** i've been treated white all my life. i come from a family that's making 100k+ a year. but colleges are in it for the statistics and if AA gets me into stanford and MIT i'll be thrilled.**"</p>

<p>By no means am I trying to discredit kcb452 even in the slightest. The point is that AA means admissions take race into consideration. It doesn't matter how miniscule the effect is. That is irrelevant. Socioeconomics is perhaps more relevant. Ultimately, AA includes discrimination by race; no matter how you cut it.</p>

73

<p>exactly! </p>

<p>so can we sue stanford and eliminate AA forever? :)</p>

74

<p>college isn't about rewarding merit (which is really a subjective term and favors certain groups), its about BUILDING A CLASS. Stanford isn't obligated to admit students with high SAT scores, they just found that is has a positive effect on the class.</p>

<p>Thats why "socioeconomic AA" isn't AA because its completely irrelevant.</p>

<p>Who should decide that racial diversity is important in a student body? Shouldn't it be the universities who, judging by the excellent state of their school (if this wasn't true none of you would care to apply) obviously know what is good for it. Or should we let people with no knowledge on the subject and college-obsessed teenagers decide?</p>

<p>The bottom line is if racial and cultural diversity are important in a student body, then Stanford should by all means seek to include it in their class to the best of their abilities. </p>

<p>Many students attend students because it is among the most diverse institutions with one of the best student bodies, so obviously Stanford has got its act together. If that diversity isn't important to you then there are hundreds of other options, just know that stanford doesn't owe you anything no matter how hard you work, you just may not be what they're looking for. But what gives any of us the right to impose our idea about what is important and what isn't in their student body. Who are we to be saying that?</p>

<p>Its not about Asian people, they just happen to be most affected by it because as a whole they excel in a very narrow range of areas.</p>

<p>Its really foolish how upset people get over this.</p>

75

<p>"they just happen to be most affected by it"</p>

<p>thanks for proving my point, tyler09. that's what we're arguing about. we acknowlege the fact that Stanford can do whatever they want to, but we are questioning the ethics behind AA. it is reverse racial discrimination (in the colloquial sense). It just happens to be that Stanford has obviously used AA in their EA this year, that's why we're talking about it here. I'm sure there would have been (or might be) threads like this on Brown, UChicago, or wherever else this was as obvious. </p>

<p>As for building a class, Asian populations are not necessarily homogeneous. the term "Asians" includes in fact many populations, and many ideas.</p>

76

<p>"UC Berkeley, which is legally not allowed to practice affirmative action is 40% asian. (i think)
Stanford is 25% Asian, and practices affirmative action.</p>

<p>these numbers do seem to suggest that AA does significantly harm the chances for Asians."</p>

<p>no they don't! the only way you could use statistics like this would be to look at the make-up of a college when affirmative action was practiced, and then again when it was discontinued. comparing the amount of Asians in Stanford (which practices affirmative action) and UC Berkeley (which does not) is simply does not suggest what you say it does--there could be too many other things going on. for instance, Stanford is a private university, while UC Berkeley is public and not to mention cheaper. What if a certain group sends in more applicants to UC Berkeley than to Stanford b/c the group feels they'll have to pay less. Also, Stanford is much more competitive than UC-Berkeley, admissions-wise. So, I'd be wiling to bet that there are less Asians (percentage-wise) at Stanford because there are more qualified white students to fill the available spots, and not because of affirmative action. and, looking at the make-up of this nation, this is a very real possibility!</p>

77

<p>
[quote]
comparing the amount of Asians in Stanford (which practices affirmative action) and UC Berkeley (which does not) is simply does not suggest what you say it does--there could be too many other things going on.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True, you can't make such assumptions, but think of how similar the two are: both are very prestigious universities that are heavily sought after (especially Asians), both are in California (where there's the highest Asian population in the US), both are right near each other, both have mostly the same strengths in departments, etc. It seems that Berkeley's applicants would be just twice Stanford's. This is pure assumption, though.</p>

<p>Try USC and UCLA, both very similar, neck-and-neck even. The Asian populations are very different.</p>

78

<p>Tyler09 has given the best explanation of how admissions at elite institutions work. I think because Asians come from a culture where only test scores count, they will never understand how other factors count in admissions. I've been in higher education for more than 30 years and I can tell you how different elites universities are today (for the better). Students get to know people who are vastly different from themselves (from diverse high schools, geographical locations, socio-economic differences, religious differences). They are being prepared for living in a world that is vastly diverse. Institutions are NOT interested in mere high test takers. I read this board every year during admissions and I'm struck by how many people still feel that AA is the reason why they didn't get admitted to a certain institution. My daughter is African American and goes to a very elite LAC. She is high achieving and we pay full tuition (which I discovered many other Black students at her institutions do as well). There are MANY middle and upper class Black and other URM who attend these institutions and pay full tuition. In fact, one of my best friends daughter (African American) graduated from Stanford this year with honors (and paid FULL tuition) this year. She was accepted to Harvard, Gerogetown and every other institution she applied to. This kid was brilliant and Black, something that many of the people on this board seem to feel they have a monopoly on. I think there are many other institutions in the nation. Most students who are high achieving seem to know that the most sought after elite schools are actively seeking a diverse class and will continue to do so. As Tyler09 correctly noted, it's called CREATING A CLASS. It's not merely about great test takers. It's about social interaction and learning from one another outside of class. It has nothing to do with fairness. I'm sure when your kids become legacies, you'll want them to get priority over other applicants. I think you all should accept the fact that Stanford is a highly sought after university and they can only accept a fraction of the students who apply. Everyone they accept is "qualified".</p>

79

<p>well put, Impw</p>

80

<p>"I think because Asians come from a culture where only test scores count, they will never understand how other factors count in admissions."</p>

<p>I'm sorry, which culture is this? Why is it suddenly wrong to work hard? Asians don't just have high test scores. I know so many Asians, so many, that are deeply involved in the community, that are talented musicians, talented artists, that are involved in sports. I'm not typefying African Americans, saying that they don't know anything other than hip-hop and basketball, so why are you typefying Asians? Do you even know anything about Asian culture? </p>

<p>Um, I accept that Stanford is selective, that is why a seat there is so coveted. If Stanford did a race-blind admissions process, I would believe that I lost to "better-qualified" students. But there is a definite (unfair) slant.</p>

<p>If schools did AA against African Americans, you would be all up in arms wouldn't you, talking about civil rights and the 1960s. And i wonder what your reaction would be if i were to say "I don't know what the big deal is..."</p>

<p>But what is college, let's start there Impw. I had the impression that college was an institution for higher learning, for students to get a specialized education. But this, this has become like Studio 54, and we're all just waiting in line to get in. If we're lucky, and they like the clothes we're wearing or the way we look, we can get in.</p>

<p>Not every URM that's admitted is admitted based solely on AA/race, but many are. And if you look at the converse, I still think that many more hardworking (and multitalented) Asians are denied acceptance because they are put in a different category.</p>