<p>The issue regarding race is despite one's accomplishments or wealth as a Black person, people tend to always see you as an URM and someone who was accepted PRIMARILY because of your race. One of my good friends went to Wellesley College years ago. Her father is a physician and she was from an affluent and highly educated family. Her father paid full tuition for her at Wellesley. She said despite this, people automatically assumed that she was on a full ride and she got in because she was Black. Ditto with my daughter, we pay full tuition for her at Amherst. She has two Ph.Ds as parents. This child has been all over the world and has accomplishments and experiences that can match the best of the students at Amherst, yet, I'm sure she's thought of as an URM by the people some of the people who didn't get in. It just goes with the territory of being Black. Many people will never accept the fact that there are many high achieving and/or middle-class (and upper-class) minority kids. Colleges will accept them readily because they not only "fit" better but they don't have to provide them with financial support.</p>
<p>People of different races are still treated differently in our society, regardless of their income. </p>
<p>Sure, some black kids have it easier than others, but they are still all treated as "black" by the society at large. A black teenager driving an expensive car is infinitely more likely to be stopped by the police than white or Asian kid. (This is just an example to show that race itself puts them at disadvantage, regardless of their background.)</p>
<p>cookiemom, bob:</p>
<p>College is not a meritocracy. </p>
<p>So all of your claims on "merit", and who is "more deserving" or "more qualified", or even "subpar stats", are completely baseless in the realm of college admissions.</p>
<p>The reason UMich's system of AA was unconstitutional was because its admissions were based on a merit "point system" that translated race into merit. Had UMich been on a holistic system the supreme court would have no grounds to rule their system unconstitutional.</p>
<p>As long as race isn't giving any pre-defined boost independent of other circumstances it is perfectly acceptable to use it in the building of the class if they think it will improve the student body.</p>
<p>If you think that going to school with more black and hispanic students is going to lower your education experience, then i'm sorry. Stanford is probably not for you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
College is not a meritocracy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think we've acknowledged this. The point is, we say it should be.</p>
<p>In addition, many colleges' admissions are meritocratic. Stanford's is one of those that isn't.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As long as race isn't giving any pre-defined boost
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In reality, it is; it's just not articulated in such a clear-cut, objective manner. It's still as much of a boost, anyway.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you think that going to school with more black and hispanic students is going to lower your education experience, then i'm sorry.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Wait, what? I don't think anyone thinks it would lower the education. But to be honest, I don't think it heightens the education, either. Nor do I don't think it significantly changes the experience. Cliques form, even in college, even at Stanford. It sounds great on paper -- the whole diversity thing, with all the races mixing -- but it's largely a PR tactic.</p>
<p>so you disagree that the future leaders of society will gain nothing from learning to work with students of different races than if they went to a school of racially homogeneous individuals?</p>
<p>I think that would only encourage the status quo where people are uncomfortable interacting with people of different races from them. </p>
<p>Regardless of whether or not a racially homogeneous environment would occur under race-blind admissions is irrelevant, seeing as you claim that a racially diverse environment yields ABSOLUTELY NO benefit to a student body, A very bold statement, if it did students would not lose a single beneficial experience.</p>
<p>And if you did misspeak and you do agree that racial diversity caries some benefit, regardless of how small, then the discussion is ultimately over. If racial diversity has positive benefits it should be included in building a class if a school wants those benefits, especially because the school isn't damaging the university, as you said above, in doing so.</p>
<p>*on a side note i'd like to comment to people who argue that it instills animosity of other races to urms: Any person of any race that would use any rationale to think that all members of a certain race at their school are inferior to them does not deserve to be at an institution like stanford nor are they the type of person that would take the time to benefit from diversity at their school. I don't see why Stanford should have to change for people with such attitudes, attitudes nobody wants at their schools.</p>
<p>^^Kyle</p>
<p>If its not clear cut and articulated then its not predefined. Stanford has never claimed to be a meritocracy or to have a formula for admittance, cut-off SAT scores, or minimum gpa.</p>
<p>AA at private universities isn't going to change because their is no basis for its removal as they aren't doing anything illegal or malicious.</p>
<p>Tyler09 is correct, private schools have the right to admit students as they see fit. I recalled reading an article last year in one of many papers on articles about who got in to these elite schools and who didn't. One guy got into an elite university because he played tuba and the orchestra needed a good tuba player. Another school admitted students who said they were intending to major in a certain language that needed more students. So, while outsiders can constantly state it was because of URM or AA that they didn't get in, they have no clue what the reality of these decisions entail. Diversity does matter - I see in my classroom and my daughter (who goes to Amherst) reports how having all of these diverse students and perspectives in the classroom enhances (and often frustrates) discussions. But, even if there is no interaction outside of the classroom, it does exist inside the classroom and that's what's important.</p>
<p>geez, why is the stanford forum the hottest place for AA debates...
What does it say about the school????</p>
<p>I guess out of hyps its the most diverse/most AA using.
Or maybe they rejected too many middle-class white kids on cc this year, lol.</p>
<p>regardless of my rejection, I still think Stanford is the best school in the country... only my opinion though.</p>
<p>you guys should just do what I am doing and start rd apps...</p>
<p>Yale or Dartmouth here I come.</p>
<p>
[quote]
so you disagree that the future leaders of society will gain nothing from learning to work with students of different races than if they went to a school of racially homogeneous individuals?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not saying nothing is gained. See below.</p>
<p>
[quote]
seeing as you claim that a racially diverse environment yields ABSOLUTELY NO benefit to a student body
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Do point out where I said that. I said, it does not somehow improve the education (strictly, the education) at a school. The experience is changed in that you grow used to being around other ethnicities. But you, and others, are making racial diversity out to be some grand factor that changes people's lives. The reality is, it doesn't. Cliques form.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And if you did misspeak
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have not misspoken; you have misinterpreted.</p>
<p>
[quote]
regardless of how small
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I believe I said "not significantly"; never did I say it adds nothing. Everything that goes into building a class -- from race to culture to country of origin -- adds something. Hell, even geographic diversity adds something to the mix, but I would say it too adds much less than people like to think.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If its not clear cut and articulated then its not predefined.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Explicitly, no. Implicitly, yes. URMs get a boost, and Stanford adcoms walk into the admissions office with this in mind. They are willing to do such. They do not set up quotas; but they do have a form of it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
AA at private universities isn't going to change because their is no basis for its removal as they aren't doing anything illegal or malicious.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your point? I don't think we're talking about change, as discussing it on an online forum won't bring about much change. Hell, if we really wanted to do that, we could protest. What we are saying, though, is that it should be different. Nothing more than that.</p>
<p>No one has yet answered my simple question I asked several posts ago. </p>
<p>tyler- I would like to hear you answer this question in particular, since you have repeatedly lauded affirmative action for the improved educational experience it results in.</p>
<p>How specifically does race affect the student experience on campus?</p>
<p>No, I have heard terms like "diverse perspectives" and "viewpoints" way too many times- be more specific. What kind of "perspective" will a URM admitted under AA bring? what kind of experiences would they share that resulted from race? how would this URM go about sharing this perspective with other students?</p>
<p>"And if you did misspeak and you do agree that racial diversity caries some benefit, regardless of how small, then the discussion is ultimately over. If racial diversity has positive benefits it should be included in building a class if a school wants those benefits, especially because the school isn't damaging the university, as you said above, in doing so."</p>
<p>This is an incredibally naive way of thinking- everything in life has a cost, as well as a value.
When you go to the store, do you say... hmmm... a widget... i want it, so i'll pay whatever the price is on the tag? I hope not.</p>
<p>You think it is worth discriminating based on race in order to achieve any benefit- no matter how negligibly small?</p>
<p>do i think that a school should be allowed to make policies with the intention of keeping a certain race out? no. Do i believe that a school can benefit from attempting to include all races? yes.</p>
<p>Bob, you are in the minority of people who see zero benefit in racial diversity. I am saying that you are in no position to make that argument because you have no credibility to the matter. The people who do have credibility say it does.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am saying that you are in no position to make that argument because you have no credibility to the matter.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You can discredit a person's argument; you cannot justifiably discredit a person. You don't know for sure whether has the "merit" to make such claims. (Not to mention appeal to authority is a fallacy.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
The people who do have credibility say it does.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Do they? Could you point out where? Do you mean Stanford? And are you sure that's what they meant? They would say racial diversity is important; that's the whole point that I've been trying to make -- that it's a PR tactic. I daresay cultural diversity is truly the aim.</p>
<p>bob99975, </p>
<p>You seem to be infatuated better yet obsessed with the concept of AA and its purpose trying to prove a point that really doesn't matter...you literally troll around the forum looking for AA debates...all of your posts that i have seen has centered around this subject...like Tyler said schools have the right to admit students as they see fit..</p>
<p>A prime example from my own personal background... I had a friend (black) from my AAU travel basketball team...kid was from Newark, NJ...lived a horrible life drugs, guns, etc basketball was his escape (literally) neways when it came time for the SATs he took it his first time and scored a 1650 (70 juniors out of 240 even took the exam)...a few months later my father signed me up for a private tutor and SAT classes (my dad is pretty well off) and i refused to go thought it was waste lol..till he said i could bring a friend with me so i wouldn't be bored...so my dad paid for us both to go to the classes ..moral of the story is I got a 2290 and in his second sitting he scored a 2170 (now at Georgetown) ...</p>
<p>So to me its obvious that when opportunities are presented anyone can benefit from them...in his public school in Newark the highest math offered is Trig and the highest science offered is chem. When you come from environments that he comes from its impossible to even be competitive compared to his suburb counterpart...just putting that out their...</p>
<p>
[quote]
a point that really doesn't matter
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think you can let the members of CC decide that, yes?</p>
<p>
[quote]
you literally troll around the forum looking for AA debates
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are you sure you know what "trolling" is?</p>
<p>
[quote]
all of your posts that i have seen has centered around this subject
[/quote]
</p>
<p>"All"? Search his posts -- there are only two threads about AA. (bob99975 has been a member since April of 2006, and the AA topics only popped up since your join date.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
A prime example from my own personal background
[/quote]
</p>
<p>One example is not a large enough sample to make any conclusions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So to me its obvious that when opportunities are presented anyone can benefit from them
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes, because we all have fathers who can pay for such opportunities, right? Not to mention the same for a friend to keep us company?</p>
<p>For one, you seem to be arguing that scores can be brought up if the opportunities are there. (Very often, they're not.) And for another, this would be a better argument against AA ("The URMs can bring up their SAT scores if they work hard enough, like many Asians have done" -- and no, I don't approve of this statement) than for it.</p>
<p>"I think you can let the members of CC decide that, yes?"</p>
<p>I thought i was a member of CC? no?</p>
<p>"All"? Search his posts -- there are only two threads about AA. (bob99975 has been a member since April of 2006, and the AA topics only popped up since your join date.)"</p>
<p>Even though i am happy that you are sticking up for your boyfriend bob99975, if you look through his post history...you will notice that he only has 81 posts and atleast 60 of them are on the topic of affirmative action.</p>
<p>"The URMs can bring up their SAT scores if they work hard enough, like many Asians have done" </p>
<p>YES, you see these opportunities are never provided to most URMs. Work hard enough im sure they already do...the kid never has money for lunch (we call him a sub prime borrower since he is always defaults on paying us back lol) let alone an SAT Book. Dont you think it will be hard to do well on the SATs when the highest math offered in your school is Trig and most of the teachers dont care about the students..</p>
<p>"One example is not a large enough sample to make any conclusions."</p>
<p>You think all the colleges adopted AA on the basis of one example...my example is only touching the surface</p>
<p>Jmoney, you seem to have conveniently forgotten the second part of kyledavid's sentence:</p>
<p>("The URMs can bring up their SAT scores if they work hard enough, like many Asians have done" -- and no, I don't approve of this statement) </p>
<p>and why does everyone believe SAT classes are that useful? just buy a BOOK! it's the same information! several of my friends have taken the classes and their scores improved only about 50 points on average. The only benefit they saw in taking the class was that they were forced to sit for 4 hours to actually take practice tests when they wouldn't have otherwise. </p>
<p>I did not want to "waste" my summer on a class so i bought the Princeton Review book ($20) and did the practice tests on that. My score raised from 2180 to 2370.</p>
<p>"in his public school in Newark the highest math offered is Trig and the highest science offered is chem"</p>
<p>last time i checked, the SAT 1 Math does not even test trig! and the courses you take don't really matter! It's SAT REASONING, it tests your ability to THINK and REASON. If you just buy a prep book (or go to a library!) and read it to understand the concepts and do a couple practice tests to get familiar with the format, you have no legit reason to complain about your score. </p>
<p>Seriously, if you can't figure out a way to get a book and you can't set aside any time to study, maybe you just don't deserve a good college</p>
<p>jmoney00:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I thought i was a member of CC? no?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Notice that I said "member*s*" -- plural, you see.</p>
<p>
[quote]
boyfriend bob99975
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Let's not be immature, shall we? We're all college or college-bound students (or alumni) here.</p>
<p>Now I'll ask you to abide by CC's Terms of Service, lest you be banned for rudeness. Since you're a new member, I don't expect you to know to apply them very well, but I'll point them out to you:</p>
<p>
[quote]
you will notice that he only has 81 posts and atleast 60 of them are on the topic of affirmative action.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Just in glancing over it, I see about 15. 15 != 60.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dont you think it will be hard to do well on the SATs when the highest math offered in your school is Trig and most of the teachers dont care about the students..
[/quote]
</p>
<p>For one, the SAT doesn't go nearly as high as trig. For another, those who do improve tend not to get much help from math teachers -- SAT questions are more logic- and strategy-based, not so much knowledge-based.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You think all the colleges adopted AA on the basis of one example
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Er, no, that's the whole point. You were providing an example, expecting me (among others) to see merit in your argument. I didn't see it. Why? Because anecdotal evidence doesn't provide an appropriate sampling size for accuracy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For one, the SAT doesn't go nearly as high as trig. For another, those who do improve tend not to get much help from math teachers -- SAT questions are more logic- and strategy-based, not so much knowledge-based.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That is true but you are ignoring the fact that taking a higher level math course will put you at an advantage. I mean I probably learned all of the math I needed to know to take the SAT by 7th grade but I doubt I would have done as well then as I did now. (I am in Calculus II now.)</p>
<p>Also, I would like to point out that at higher institutions AA does not help URMs get in nearly as much at state schools. Most of the somewhat valid arguments against AA use statistics from state schools and junior colleges as evidence. One common argument is that AA allows less qualified students to get into top schools where they will inevitably do poorly do to their lack of preparation. This is true at many junior colleges and some state schools, but false at top institutions. It's been shown that the better the school, the better the graduation rate for all races. And besides there are numerous reasons why students may not perform well at college: the student could become involved in a relationship and lose focus, could start to party too much, could become depressed, could struggle with managing work and studying, etc...</p>
<p>Another thing that has been frequently mentioned is that AA should be practiced only in regards to socio-economics. This though is an uninformed view due to that fact that, regardless of a person's class, he or she will still be discriminated against. For example, both rich and poor Asians will be expected to be good at science and math. Both rich and poor Africans/African-Americans will be thought of as athletes or gangsters. I would argue that Africans/African Americans, and Latinos are at a significant advantage all throughout their academic careers due to the negative stereotypes associated with them. These social groups are hardly ever thought of as intelligent or hardworking by their peers which can oftentimes have damaging effects on their self-esteem. (Sadly, many of the views expressed in this thread and forum help to perpetuate this occurrence and add to many URMs feeling as though their acceptance into top schools is not as valuable as other students.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
But you, and others, are making racial diversity out to be some grand factor that changes people's lives. The reality is, it doesn't. Cliques form.
[/quote]
Wow... I think that most people would agree that we have started to make progress in race relations due to the abolishment of segregation... but I guess that's not really a "grand factor that [has changed] people's lives." Anyways, you are missing the point of having a diverse class. Yes, it would be nice if people formed close friendships with people from different backgrounds but that is necessary to benefit from a diverse class. The most significant effect of a diverse class is seen in the discussion based classes since more views would be expressed. People would become exposed to more new ideas. I have witnessed this on the high school level at a diversity seminar called Our Town and can reasonably expect this to happen on the college level. Some argue that there are other ways to achieve this diversity in the classroom and that race is the only way to achieve this. I agree that race is not the ONLY way to achieve this goal, but considering race IS one of the many ways to achieve this goal. Poor Africans/African-Americans and wealthy Africans/African-Americans have had both many similar and different life experiences. This is true for any race. What is also true is that, though both wealthy Africans/African-Americans and wealthy Asians are both wealthy and have benefited from that wealth, it is more often than not the case that the two would have had very different life experiences. Since race can impact one's life experiences, and life experiences impact one's views, it is reasonable to assert that colleges can obtain a class of diverse views by considering the race of applicants (By considering I mean that there is a field where the applicant can indicate his or her race. *Preferential treatment =/= considering race.)</p>
<p>Assuming you are also in high school, how can you assert that "cliques form" without actually having attended college yet? I think that this is rather naive especially if you are basing this off of your high school experience since people change when they make the transition from high school to college. Also, what you are calling "cliques" may not necessarily be "cliques" but "niches," or a group of close friends you hang out with. ("Cliques" have a negative connotation.) No one expects anyone to be close friends with everyone and hang out with everyone. Also, I hope you are not asserting that people only/will only form close friendships with people of the same race because that is simply ignorant.</p>
<p>Lastly, at top schools, being a URM only increases the chances that admissions officers will closely evaluate your application. This is the same for legacies, musicians, athletes, etc. One thing that everyone should remember is that colleges look at your school's profile. This way they can see what opportunities were available to you and see whether or not you took advantage of those opportunities. For example, your schools profile indicates things like how many teachers were at your school, number of AP classes, number of classrooms, etc. Thus, this is one way that schools are able to take class/income into account.</p>
<p>P.S.
[quote]
[quote]
you literally troll around the forum looking for AA debates
[/quote]
Are you sure you know what "trolling" is?
[/quote]
Hmmm... "trolling" just means to surf the web... so how he used it makes sense. Granted, that is computer lingo. "Trolling" also informally means "to patrol an area in search for someone or something."</p>
<p>P.P.S.
I am surprised by that fact that it seems as though many on CC have many community service hours yet they are oblivious to the fact that Africans/African-Americans and Latinos are the most disadvantaged minority groups BY FAR simply due to the all the negative stereotypes associated with the two races. People fail to realize that these hindrances are so severe that even high income Africans/African-Americans and Latinos are still severely held back by these stereotypes. When people first meet you, the first thing they can discern, if they are not blind, is the color of your skin not how much money your family makes
just think about that.</p>
<p>To clarify bobs post count</p>
<p>out of his most recent 40 posts 30 of them center around AA, which conveniently is the same as the 60 that jmoney predicted.</p>
<p>I do agree that bob trolls CC looking for any place where he can go "wish i was a urm!" or "afsfsafha affirmative action alsjkfl;fksdjaf" or "since you're black your SAT score of 5 should get you into harvard, gotta love AA" </p>
<p>I think that your argument, Bob, that racial diversity isn't something colleges should seek holds very VERY little water in that most people who agree with your conclusion don't agree with your reasoning.</p>