<p>first of all, there is a big diff btw 200K and 450K. cptofthehouse has five kids (I think?). it sounds like the OP has 2. that’s more than 2x as many people on half the income.</p>
<p>I don’t bemoan someone from making good money. I do have an issue when a person making 450k says they are ‘comfortable, but not wealthy’ </p>
<p>450K is wealthy, sorry, I can’t see it any other way</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>That’s a polite way to put it. Some are not so polite.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>They manage to do this in Europe.</p>
<p>Our state universities manage it too.</p>
<p>It’s only the parents with college-age kids that need the break. When
parents no longer have kids in college, they can pay full freight on
their taxes.</p>
<p>Our tax code generally has the concept that you can deduct things that
contribute to finding new employment or improving yourself in your
current job. Why not just extend that to the costs of college
education.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I think that most high earners would be tickled pink if they could deduct
college expenses without phaseout.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I believe that most people, including the original poster, want an
improvement from their current situation.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Wealth is determined by assets, not income.</p>
<p>High-income would be the accurate term.</p>
<p>When you’re analyzing a company, you look at their balance sheets and income statements. The former tells you assets, liabilities and net worth. The latter tells you how much they made in a period.</p>
<p>I was in a similar boat earlier last year (for boarding school applications, too!). We decided that my parent’s would have to bite and pay. Even if you give sixty thousand for each school (while it would be more like forty for the boarding school and fifty for the college) you have an untaxed three hundred and thirty thousand remaining. The way colleges would see that is people can easily live off of that. As another poster pointed out, we have not even gotten into investments. </p>
<p>I understand every bit of your thoughts, believe me.</p>
<p><<wealth is=“” determined=“” by=“” assets,=“” not=“” income=“”>></wealth></p>
<p>yes, of course,</p>
<p><<high-income would=“” be=“” the=“” accurate=“” term=“”>></high-income></p>
<p>which tends to lead to higher assets which brings you to wealthy :-)</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I think that something like $35 to $50 trillion was wiped out in various asset crashes in the last year. The bulk of that is the assets of the wealthy. And then there are those that entrusted their funds to Bernie Madoff. That was only $50 billion but I’ve read of people that are essentially wiped out.</p>
<p>A lot of banking stocks have lost 90 to 95 percent of their stock values. Some have lost 100% - we’ve been on a tear closing down banks lately. I think that we closed down four on Friday. Imagine your family wealth in banking stocks getting wiped out.</p>
<p>Perhaps we’ll get to see IRS numbers for capital gains this year. I expect it to be a real shocker if they release the numbers.</p>
<p>Wealth is in the eye of the beholder. Folks who make a half million tend to know, work with and live among those who make millions. Their perceptions are relative to their everyday life. </p>
<p>We also have no idea how long they have made that income. To insist they are wealthy is based on an individual’s perceptions rather than fact.</p>
<p>I have absolutely no animosity towards those who make twice or more of my income with a smaller family and who are looking for ideas to bring down their college costs. No more than I would if they were looking for sales and bargains at a store, or watching the prices on their groceries or being disciplined about any of their finances. I would not consider them “cheap” either. </p>
<p>I absolutely would not want to have less money than I do. Why would I need to trade places with anyone with less secure finances than mine? It would take no time whatsoever to be in that situation. That is no challenge at all. My points have nothing to do with wanting to trade places with anyone, nor am I even insinuating that anyone with more has less than someone with less. Someone who makes an income of $40K a year is not going to want to trade places with someone making half of that, all other things equal. So there is absolutely nothing that someone who is making $200K gains by trading places with someone who makes much less than that.</p>
<p>What I am saying is that people who are in any given financial situation tend to use their resources to have the optimal quality of life and to provide the best educational opportunities for their families. At any income level, having done so, it is not easy to come up with the additional monies needed for college as many of the financial commitments made are not easily released. Someone who shops all of the time and blows their money has a lot easier time coming up with extra money than someone who spends it on things like neighborhood, schools and other things that require a commitment along with the money. </p>
<p>Right now I am trying to come up with another $400 a month which I need to do if I am not going to take out a loan next year. I have cut my budget down pretty danged tightly and to get anymore loose money is nigh impossible without 1) sellling my house 2) pulling my kids out of private schools 3) taking my kids out of activities that require money such as music and sports and school related stuff, most of which are things that fall under the educational enrichment that I want to buy with the money I would save. Kind of like chasing my tail. </p>
<p>Most of us have made decisions, wrongfully or justifiably, that have put us in a situation where paying for college is difficult. It is not easy to to rectify when the time comes to pay. Telling someone what they should have done is easy to do. Giving them helpful advice is not so easy. And even more difficult to take. </p>
<p>I am starting a garden and have decided to quit buying some favorite vegetables that I am now going to be growing. My food budget is very low for the number of folks I feed. We’ve stopped going out for meals. I have a “no car” a week. I plan my trips to save gas. I’ve halved my utility bills. We’re doing our own yard this year. Have done everything I can on those “how to spend less” lists. Can’t get much tighter without hitting the big expenses like the mortgage, tuition, etc. At this point, I am spending far less than folks who make much less than our family on most budget items. Have not been able to cut down further without going into those items. I’m sitting here hoping for those Obama dollars to kick in right now because I don’t see any other sources of money.</p>
<p>I am not asking for financial aid for those in the upper incomes. I don’t think those in the lower brackets have any where nearly enough, not to mention the middling ranges. All I am saying is that those who are in the upper incomes have plenty of reason for looking for ways to lower those college costs as well, because many of them, really us as, yes, I am in the category that does not qualify for aid (and I have not bemoaned that fact but am grateful for it) are tapped out in terms of coming up with the amount of money that some of those college choices cost without relinquishing some things in life that are very much part of the same priority that includes a wide range of college choices for kids. Not saying for an instant that this desire is even a need. Just trying to shed a bit of light for those who feel that folks who do not qualify for financial aid should find it easy to come up with the money. </p>
<p>Because we live in an upscale area in a big house and our kids go to private school, we don’t have the money for things that other families who have not made those choices more readily have. Also we are one of those families who have some of these luxuries but not enough to afford a lot of the trappings that go with families that can afford those items. College for our kids is a joint effort in savings, borrowing, austerity, looking for scholarships and awards, working, on the entire family’s parts. Because we chose house and education for our family as high priorities, we have less money than most people making far, far less than we do. (Just go through some numbers in your head and you’ll see what I mean). I think, yes, our income is high compared to most Americans, despite the high cost (NYC area) of where we live. But the same mindset and beliefs that have us wanting our kids to have their choices in schools with atmosphere, environment, educational excellence, etc that is the best fit is what takes up our money before we get to college and during their college years.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>which tends to lead to higher assets which brings you to wealthy :-)</p>
<p>Actually, not necessarily. Think about a person who looks wealthy. Big house-but it’s mortgaged up to the hilt-big payments. A stable full of expensive cars, including that Ferrari in the driveway-all leased. Current excess consumption supported by credit card debt or just bills you haven’t paid. You spend a lot of money on travel, expensive vacations, restaurant meals, favors for friends-none of which can be seen as an asset on a balance sheet. </p>
<p>You can spend every penny you earn, even of a huge salary, and still have nothing. And there are postmen who deliver the mail to these residences who die with a million dollar estate. Wealth is a tricky thing…</p>
<p>What a whacked-out thread! I have to say that 450K is the highest income I have ever seen anyone post on College Confidential.</p>
<p>I have read a ton of threads about filing FAFSAs though. I think the OP should file the FAFSA, but should check “no” on the Common App question about applying for financial aid. There will not be any need-based aid anywhere with that income, nor should there be. Since some schools and some foundations require a FAFSA, however, even for merit-based aid, at least that base will be covered.</p>
<p>There might be some benefit as far as acceptance odds go for students who can pay the sticker price, even at needs-blind schools.</p>
<p>
Why aren’t you willing to borrow? $400 per month is $4800 – the payment on a Plus loan would be about $60/month and you probably could get a better rate & lower payments on a HELOC or other loan. Are your kids borrowing to pay their share – taking out at least what is available to them in Stafford loans? </p>
<p>Keep in mind that except for a handful of elite colleges, loans are the starting point for financial aid for all of us beneficiaries of that system. I’ve got loans, my kids have loans. </p>
<p>One of the things that always leaves me puzzled with these discussions is the unwillingness of the upper middle class to take on debt. Your ability to carry debt is an integral PART of the calculation for financial aid. In fact – you ARE eligible for federally backed aid – for you it is a PLUS loan, and for your kids it is unsubsidized Stafford loans. </p>
<p>
If your younger kids are in private schools and participating in activities like music & sports… then you are not “struggling on an austerity regimen”. You are struggling to keep up with a privilege regimen – that is, you have a hard time keeping up with the expenses that the people who qualify for financial aid can’t afford to come up with in the first place. Or, to put things another way, you are currently living beyond your means (or at least what you can manage to pay from current income)… </p>
<p>I understand the disappointment: of course you and others like you expected it all to be easier. You assumed that you would have enough money to have all of these things, whether it is violin lessons or that private school that seems so ideal for kids or that dream college for each of them. But you don’t, because all of those things have become very expensive.</p>
<p>What you perceive as animosity from those who are far less fortunate than you is simply a lack of sympathy. We want to say: welcome to the real world, the one we have lived in all along and will be living in long after our kids graduate from college. I know working class families who have struggled to come up with private school tuitions for their kids… but then they gave something else up. For those of us with limited resources every thing we ever wanted involved giving something else up, because it was the only way to make ends meet. </p>
<p>So, if the problem is that you can’t see how to make it all happen without borrowing… then you haven’t really reached the point of “need” yet. You simply haven’t begun to use the resources at your disposal to finance what you want. </p>
<p>
But that’s not what we feel. We just can’t understand why you think you have a right to have it all come “easy”.</p>
<p>Of course $450K is the highest salary you’ve heard here. The OP is new and didn’t know about the class warfare!</p>
<p>Maybe the OP and her family got to where they got by being debt adverse. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to figure out how to do this without debt.</p>
<p>I’m always a little curious about the highly educated here who talk about the ‘real world’ and regular people. I’m assuming many of you could have chosen to do what was necessary to get into high paying jobs if you chose to do so. Getting to send kids to private schools, music lessons and the colleges of their choice debt free was certainly the motivation in our house to choose such jobs and work long hours.</p>
<p>We’re real people who made our way through school with big loans living in the real world sending three kids to private K-12 schools and then private colleges with no aid or debt. Sure we worked 18 hours many days for decades, which is our own real world, but it’s no less real than anyone else’s. It’s what we chose to do and our sacrifices are different than those with equal educations who used their degrees in different ways and are choosing to borrow to put their kids through college.</p>
<p>And the OP is choosing to seek merit aid, a third and equally valid approach.</p>
<p>
In my family everyone has always chosen to work long hours to help other people. I am proud to say that my son is following this tradition and is employed with a nonprofit agency; and that my daughter chose to spend the past summer paying her own way to live and travel abroad to volunteer as an intern for an international NGO.</p>
<p>We’re not the ones complaining – I am grateful that my daughter’s college has given her enough grant aid to enable her to attend, even if I do have to borrow $10K annually to make it happen, and even though she will graduate with $20K of debt in her own name. </p>
<p>But the need-base financial aid system is that – it is for people with need. We are tired of hearing affluent people who live privileged lifestyles whining because they might have to make some small adjustments to their lifestyle to have everything they want.</p>
<p>^^^ stands up and applauds Calmom. </p>
<p>I’m driving 1991 Civic that might die at any moment. I am putting a new roof and heating/AC system in my house because I NEED to, not because I WANT to.</p>
<p>when us common folk hear ‘gee 42K for private HS and 50K for college will be 1/4 of pretax income’, we slap our head and say a collective DUH!</p>
<p>My EFC is 1/3 of AFTER tax income that was 35K for 2008. Do the math.
I and MANY MANY others are LIVING on less than what the OP is is paying for a private HS.</p>
<p>FWIW, the ONLY federal FA that my son is getting that the OP wouldn’t get is the perkins loan. The OP can get a stafford loan like anyone else.</p>
<p>I hope her son is willing to accept he may have to go to a lower tiered school than HYPS to get his ‘help’ in the form of merit aid that is not tied to need.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Most people that are wealthy (outside those that received a windfall
or those that don’t manage their own money) understand a very simple
principle to accumulate wealth: create streams of income that require
little or no mainteance and those streams of income will add up over
time. Those streams can be dividend income, the income from the local
car wash or a sandwhich show or a rental property or an energy trust
or a real estate trust.</p>
<p>If you think about it, debt is the opposite of this. You are making
payment streams to someone else. We do this for telephone companies,
utilities, gas stations, cable companies, wireless companies, etc.
Why do cable and wireless companies spend so much to get you to be
regular paying customers? Because they’ve figured out that it is
profitable to do so.</p>
<p>Debt = slavery.</p>
<p>But this was hidden in the secular bull market from 1982 to 2000. We
got used to rising incomes, rising stock prices and a strong dollar
so that it became attractive to borrow money for consumption or
something like a college education. The availability of easy credit
pushes prices up.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>There are societal, familial and peer group expectations of what we
should provide for our kids and cpt is trying to meet those
expectations within the confines of their budget. It clearly takes
effort to do so. Every single day, there are thousands of people out
there to pick your pocket. It could be the guys from Eastern Europe
sending you spam or the local grocery store jacking up prices to probe
their pricing power. It could be the local utilities asking for rate
hikes or the local government considering a tax on ankle bracelets
because many people wear them. Cpt is clearly defining sports, music,
private schools as needs. Are they needs? I think that’s a murky area
but I don’t begrudge those that consider them needs.</p>
<p>I had a look at Wikipedia’s entry on privilege and it doesn’t appear
to apply here unless you know something personal about cpt that the
rest of us don’t.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>I don’t get the feeling that cpt is living as you state and I’ve
studied this quite a bit.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Assumptions are built on history and they are hard to dismantle. We’ve
had a violent dismantling of assumptions. People have to retrench
within the new rules that they are discoving as we move forward. There
is massive disappointment all around. Have a look in the intern forum.</p>
<p>Some things have become more expensive but there are lots of things
that have dropped in price. I spoke to the person that manages our
shipping room last week and asked here how incoming personal shipments
are doing. She said that they are running the same as before the
economic downturn. Our company is doing well and there are bargains
all over the place which means that people are keeping up their
previous levels of buying.</p>
<p>cpt is managing their changing circumstances and doing so in a rational
way from my perspective. I would hope that there are many out there
that could learn from cpt’s experiences.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>It comes across as jealousy and resentment.</p>
<p>We, for the most part, don’t know the past of others. They may have
grown up in a wealthy family or they may have lived a life of poverty
before climbing out.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>With your attitude, this could very well be true. If someone is doing
better, then perhaps listening instead of lecturing to would be more
productive towards future economic well-being.</p>
<p>This kind of summed it up for me: </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That that counts as an austerity program…! It’s not jealousy and resentment; it’s incredulity that someone considers having to mow their own lawn rather than pay someone else to do it an “austerity program.”</p>
<p>Sure, it’s all relative, but it comes across as whining, as calmom said. It’s hard to muster sympathy for someone who now has to mow the family lawn to pay for college, and I say that as someone who hates to mow! (Maybe if the family had been doing the yard chores for the past 10 years, there’d be more money in the college fund; if education and housing come first, why is there even a yard service to have to give up?)</p>
<p>Whoa, there Calmom. I am living a very privileged life in terms of house, neighborhood, children in the schools of choice and having the activities to make further schools of choice possible. Am also making sure that we are responsibly doing all of the financial things that are our responsibility at our income and asset level. All of these things are a privilege. However, I can tell you that the austerity regiment that we have imposed in terms of household budget and discretionary spending is very tight indeed and much less than the vast majority of folks who make far less than we do. </p>
<p>I have no problems taking on debt for a number of things that are important and urgent. Education is important, but there is no urgency to take on that debt. Yes, another $5K in debt is about $70 a month for ten years. But that means doing it for 4 years which comes to a maximum of $280 a month. And I have two more behind that one. So it isn’t a matter of taking on that one loan for $70 a month. We have and will max out the Stafford each year, with my son borrowing for us since the interest is favorable and he does not need the entire $5500 since he is working and earning enough to pay his share of the cost. </p>
<p>Whether this “austerity regiment” is being practiced at a $450K a year a household, my household or one with far less income, it is a way of life that not many at any income bracket practice. My husband’s family makes and has far less than we do but they spend their money much more freely. It is what we have chosen to do to get the choices in education for our children. At our income level, it is necessary to do this to get those choices and still does not give us carte blanche for the the most expensive schools. That to me is frightening. We really would be jeopardizing a lot of essential things like health, security, etc to send our kids to a full price private school away from home. </p>
<p>I think taking out ANY amount of loans for 10 years or more is a big deal. We did it with our mortgage, and we are doing it for educations, and would do it for health reasons. Not too many other things for which we would do it.</p>
<p>It is not sympathy that I or most folks I know want but it is the animosity we don’t understand. I have every bit of understanding why someone whom I perceive as well to do relative to me would be pinched in affording educational costs and look for ways to do it. I welcome any advice and help and opportunities for help in that direction. THat is a major reason why I am on these boards, and try to come up with help for those who have much more in resources than I do as well as those who have far less. This attitude of “you have enough money, just pay it, borrow it” is one of animosity, as far as I am concerned. I don’t have that attitude, nor do I feel that those who don’t have the money do not deserve access to education for that reason. I would like to see the right education for all students to be available, not just for those who happen to have the parents that are willing and able to support cost. </p>
<p>I don’t think it is helpful to tell a student whose parents are well to do and living on every bit of their income and more that it’s tough beans that they happen to have that kind of a family any more than to tell that to a student whose parents were not able to make that kind of a financial life. You don’t choose your parents. You look for the alternatives available. For the well to do student, what it is going to involve is a big change in lifestyle for the entire family to come up with the money each year in many cases. </p>
<p>I can tell you that our grocery, clothing, living money is along the lines of someone who makes about a sixth of what we do. This is not whining but statement of pure fact. It is not whining to ask how to make the transitions and look for what is available out there to make the college years financially possible at ANY income level. As for complaining, of course we complain. We all complain. We complain about the quality of food at a restaurant with full knowledge that there are those out there starving. We complain about the cost of food. There is no problem with complaining. It is the first step to recognizing an issue that we need to resolve for our selves. There are those out there who have no sympathy for families who scrimp as yours–Calmom, Sueinphilly–to pay for a private college when their kids are going to public, local colleges. Why draw the line at private colleges instead of high schools, middle schools, elementary schools, nursery schools? Suddenly it’s all right to pay for private education because YOU feel at that point in time it is suddenly important instead of feeling it was important to get the best education all along the way? </p>
<p>Again, I am upset about the rage, snideness and animosity that is exhibited towards those who some of you feel should be freely paying for something instead of addressing the issue at hand which is that the best fit education for a given student is something that is expensive and difficult to attain when getting it would really be a huge favor for society as a whole. I am just asking if this attitude could be changed as it really is a nasty one. Who is it that is so all knowledgeable to be making the decisions of who can easily afford what and what things are the most important to a family?</p>
<p>Owlice, I am looking for places to cut. We don’t have very many places anymore. Yes, we did have a yard service for a number of reasons, and for our family it is a justifiable expense given where we live and our income and assets. We live in an area where most people have their yards cared for. We also have a kid with cancer and other health issues that make doing our own yard a bit more of an issue than for some people. At the moment, I am looking to reduce more of our monthly costs without selling our house or reducing the educational situations since the reason we are want to do this is to increase our educational opportunities. We are cutting into meat here, is what I am saying. I can list all of the things we have done, but really I am looking for further things to do. What we are doing, we are continuing. But even at what I consider a high income, we have reached a point where the cuts are no longer there to make without compromising the very reason why we want to make the cuts. We have reached our affordability point, and done so by bringing our budget way down there. To me it’s frightening that our level of income and assets that it comes to that to get to our level WHICH IS STILL NOT WHAT THE TOP CHARGING SCHOOLS COST. In other words, at our standard of living, I don’t see how we can afford, say HPY for our kids, which seems to me means that these top schools that want to be accessible to ALL scholars regardless of income levels, is really not accessible financially for a lot of students in this country without taking a pound of flesh from the family. </p>
<p>Yes, it 's very obvious to me that a family making, say $50k a year and making that kind of money for their past at a level that is considered average in this country, is not going to be able to afford more than what they make each year for their kids college. What’s frightening, is the level that it takes to be able to afford this. And I am talking about families that are balanced and responsible. Not blowing their money on truly frivolous things, and not living a life so financially tight that it compromises other issues. That is the state where we are these days. </p>
<p>Yes, I do sympathize with families who are taking out loans, scrimping, emptying savings, living substandard, risking health to pay for college. In fact, I don’t think that it is an overall good thing that families should have to do that. I do not admire someone who lives in a dangerous neighborhood, works 3 jobs, endangers the family’s health and welfare to be able to afford college for the kids. My issue is that the costs for getting the best education for most students has reached a point where higher and higher incomes are required to do this. It is absurd that a family making a half million a year cannot comfortably pay for college if they have managed their money and lives in a balanced way. I think it is crazy that our family with what we make and have is not easily able to pay for colleges of choice . We make a lot; we don’t live an extravagant life by most standards. Where we have put our money and priorities have been where families should be in order to maximize health, comfort,etc. And yet, it’s still difficult to come up with that college bill. Where does it put most others who don’t make that kind of money and who perhaps did not manage what they did make very well? I think education is too important to make it that difficult to come up with the funds that would best educate our children.</p>
<p>No entitlement here at any particular income line. I feel that a less capitalistic system needs to be in place for college education. By making it that difficult up the economic levels that the hardship reaches, it makes it something that is a luxury, which I don’t think it should be.</p>
<p>calmom</p>
<p>Unwillingness to take on debt? At the expence of what? Putting the family into bankruptcy? Haven’t you heard? Our country has too much debt. And as to the comment about music and the like and having the finances to do this? There has and never will any student that can’t participate in any school activity of town activity because of lack of funds. Everyone in our town can participate in everything. And i bet most towns and cities are like that.</p>
<p>Just because people earn less doesn’t mean that FAFSA is an entitlement program.</p>
<p>There is always such class war on CC. OP just stepped into a bunch of doo doo. </p>
<p>Don’t fill out any financial information. Any school your son would be interested would not need it. Our private school GC just informed all juniors this year, don’t even bother to check the the box. Duke has a full merit scholarship if your son is HYP credential.</p>