<p>lol WHY DO YOU KEEP MENTIONING THE OLD LADY? what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? that is CRIME. this is CHEATING for god's sake.</p>
<p>it just PROVES my point that most people on CC are freaking GEEKS and think that cheating is the worst thing anybody could do. there are SO many worse things that people do besides cheating yet people dont go crazy about reporting them! its only when cheating is involved do the CC kids go wild.</p>
<p>i LOVE it. this thread is pure gold.</p>
<p>and laxtaxi, looks like your husband has the same "revolting" view as i. i guess hes a selfish dude too then. and apparently he would "walk past the old lady" too, whatever the hell that means. how could you marry such a person?</p>
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lol WHY DO YOU KEEP MENTIONING THE OLD LADY? what the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? that is CRIME. this is CHEATING for god's sake.</p>
<p>it just PROVES my point that most people on CC are freaking GEEKS and think that cheating is the worst thing anybody could do. there are SO many worse things that people do besides cheating yet people dont go crazy about reporting them! its only when cheating is involved do the CC kids go wild.</p>
<p>i LOVE it. this thread is pure gold.</p>
<p>and laxtaxi, looks like your husband has the same "revolting" view as i. i guess hes a selfish dude too then. and apparently he would "walk past the old lady" too, whatever the hell that means. how could you marry such a person?
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<p>who cares whether or not it's a crime? crimes are merely actions and behavior that we deem grave enough to be punishable by law. but the law isn't the universal definition of right and wrong; just because something is not a crime doesn't mean it's not wrong. cheating is still wrong.</p>
<p>i guess some people here can't handle complexity and resort to living their lives on a bunch of false dichotomies :)</p>
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But the schools do try to avoid having such students/alum by doing their best to weed out cheaters, liars, forgers, assaulters, etc. in the admissions process.
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<p>This got me thinking. the Yale admission office obviously failed to weed out the cheater in question. if he didn't brag about his forgery to the OP, chances are he'd never get caught as a student or a Yale graduate. since the admission process is so vulnerable to fraud, couldn't there be an continuous process of checks AFTER admission to verify the credentials of current undergraduates or even alumni?</p>
<p>Just one point to make... Some people are comparing cheating with like murder(that makes me laugh)... i think there was a misunderstanding before....Yale is an amazing university and to them one person is nothing... nothing. That is why i strongly think he will get kicked out(Yea, Baelor... let YALE decide but we all have a pretty good idea of what is going to happen.. we do not know but it is likely)...If he was punished some other way... something less severe.. i would say go ahead. Although it is contract, i just do not see how being of bad judgement deserves getting kicked out from Yale(IF that happens and i think it will). </p>
<p>Yale is not going to say , 'Hmmm, there are many cheaters .. let's forgive him..' no way.</p>
<p>and for how he faked them, I really don't know. but im sure it will come out after all is said and done. </p>
<p>btw, our guidance office doesn't control the recs, at least I don't think. we give teachers the stamped envelopes with labels, and thats the extent. i don't know if the teachers directly mail them, or not.</p>
<p>if this is the case, then it seems pretty easy at my school. im afraid we might get backlash as well for allowing this to happen, which someone hinted earlier on. even if it isn't, I don't think the secretaries who get the envelopes check to see if there's a seal on them, a special stamp from the school that all recs are sent with. they just take them out, and into file they go...just that. we need a complete reforming of the system if this can happen</p>
<p>laxtaxi, btw if an old lady was getting beat up in the mdidle of street i would definitly help her. I personally don't see how you can compare the two event. Cause one event, someone is getting hurt in one event. I would save her and help her. But for this, I don't see anyone getting hurt. The student who lied probably also had top grades as well as SAT and excellent EC. Teacher's rec is like the easiest thing to get since as long as you have a teacher that likes you its easy to get one. Its like one of the smallest part of the admission. What does anyone gain from reporting? I personally don't know. What do the community gain from not snitching? Yale is still getting a top notch student. Your high school looks better for producing such a top notch student. You know the student who can help you in the future(life is all about connections if you guys don't know that already) as you did specify he thinks you as a friend. Would you do this to your friend? </p>
<p>Im saying that if no one gain from this, so why do it? It only cause pain and humiliation. For what? Your own sense of justice? I think reporting is truly the selfish thing to do. I would let that guy be. If he continues to lie and trick his way through life, he will get caught one day and suffer the consequences. If he stopped, a fake teacher's rec is such a small part of a person's life. No reason to ruin his life over it.</p>
<p>guys, it's useless to try to explain ethics to people like xbankx who have a practically congenital difficulty in understanding stuff beyond simple low-brow one-liners like "no one gains from this", "you don't gain anything from it", "karma will get to him" and "_________ didn't play a big part in his admission anyway". the most horrifying part is how xbankx said that he would abandon his ethics in a second for his own selfish gain (connections?!) and THEN go on to call everyone else selfish. i don't see how it's even possible to live with such a distorted worldview, but let's see how such people are gonna survive. the OP has already done the right thing by reporting the matter to the relevant people; let's just wait and see how things turn out.</p>
<p>screwitlah, your low-brow one-liner is "do it because its the right thing to do". The right thing to do may not always be the most beneficial to the community. I would hope you understand that. There is no Justice League. Even a great country like US do stuff that's wrong for its own interest, because thats how the world works. Justice doesn't always win like comic books and stuff. You think Bill Gates built up his company from providing charity? No, he forced other small companies out of business. He crushed his opposition until they submit to him. He uses a lot of illegal methods to become number 1 in the software world. Was what he did wrong? Definitely but he provided us with softwares and advanced the use of computer. Was it beneficial to the community? Yes.</p>
<p>Also if I were to take action, I would have done it during the admission process not wait until its 1 week before the school starts. Doing it now just seems unlawfully cruel and unusual. Espeically since the OP said you hated him, would you ahve done the same to your best friend?</p>
<p>oh, no, you're wrong. that's not low-brow, because at least it makes sense and people agree with it. and stop trying already - no one can follow your logic because it's simply non-existent.</p>
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The right thing to do may not always be the most beneficial to the community. I would hope you understand that. There is no justice league. Even a great country like US do stuff thats wrong for its own interest, because thats how the world works.
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<p>but at least you agree with me that what you're advocating is not the right thing. :)</p>
<p>Wrong and right is relative. My definition of right or wrong depends. Morally speaking, what I am advocating is definitely wrong. But if we take out the moral part, right becomes the side that benefits the most people. Of course, everyone wants to stand on the moral right side since its a lot easier; it would be a lot easier for me to say just do the right thing and look like a good person. But I don't because I don't believe that people should always follow the moral side. I think whats better and more beneficial to the community as a whole is more right than moral justice.</p>
<p>Remember, everyone's post here reflects their opinions. We are not God or any other higher force-thus we can't be sure if we are "right" or "wrong". That being said, xbanx, this isn't as cut and dry as you think and I think you are erring on the side of "wrong". Yes, if the OP's "friend" cheated on a math quiz and then waited until August to bring this to the teacher's attention, yes I would say that he is ruining the person's life, punishment is not fit for crime, it's out of spite, etc. And to be honest, I'm betting the teacher's would look at it like that too and ignore it. But, forgery of a person's name is a whole different beast. I consider this to arguably the worst form of cheating in a college app, maybe second only to forging a transcript as well. If I were the teacher in question I would feel I deserve the "right" to know that my name is forged. In addition, forgery is not just like cheating on a quiz, it is a crime punishable by jail. I'm not saying he will go to jail, but obviously the OP's "friend" has entered a whole new level of badness. The only thing I agree with you on is that yes, the OP's "friend" will likely take retaliation against the OP if he finds out his him. So yes, I think the OP should tell, anonymously of course, which he already did. And lastly, to those judging those who would or would not tell on someone (this may even include me)-back off. If someone didn't decide to tell thinking it wasn't their own business, it does not mean that they are a bad person or do not have a moral compass. It doesn't mean that they'll watch someone beat up an old woman and do nothing. And, someone who does decide to tell isn't a geek or nerd or have no friends. There is not always a hard fast definition of "right" or "wrong" and this thread has already proven that.</p>
<p>xbankx, you have posted several times that taking the moral side is the easier side. Standing on the side of right is easier? How can that be, when you are also saying that doing the right thing - as even you concede - requires active effort AND creates risk of retaliation? Doing nothing, as you advocate, is much, much easier. </p>
<p>Turn away, pretend you don't notice. The pummeled old lady is no relative of yours. LOL. I added that just for fun since you like the analogy so much. Since you asked, the reason that the analogy is valid is that, in each case, if you apply your thought process, if no good can come to you from intervening, then it is not worth intervening.</p>
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No, he forced other small companies out of business. He crushed his opposition until they submit to him. He uses a lot of illegal methods to become number 1 in the software world. Was what he did wrong? Definitely but he provided us with softwares and advanced the use of computer. Was it beneficial to the community? Yes.
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<p>No, it was not beneficial.</p>
<p>I don't know if you're one of those PRC students who have been brainwashed by the Politburo to idolise Bill Gates (YEA! SOCIALISM WITH CHINESE CHARACTERISTICS, DENG XIAOPING LEAD ON), but the last 10 years of Microsoft have NOT been beneficial. DRM, superfluous software patents, hindering innovation, making wars against open source, suppressing "power users" who actually want to have a say on how their computer works ... and if you talk with the hackers (like real hackers who program and code, not script-kiddie crackers) at MIT who will most likely all use Linux, they will tell you that Microsoft has not been beneficial for the IT world. Earlier, it might have, but in its late years, it has not. It is the IT equivalent of Ivan the Terrible. Yea, maybe killing off those boyars might have been good for a united Russia but razing whole cities of your own folk to the ground was not.</p>
<p>Firstly, as the OP I would check to make sure he wasn't just trying to set you up to make a false accusation. So email the teachers about your suspicions. After you confirm this, take action. </p>
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Some people are comparing cheating with like murder(that makes me laugh)...
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<p>Both are antisocial crimes. </p>
<p>The boy who enjoys picking the wings off of flies will go on to breaking the bones of dogs to enjoy it writhe in pain ... cheating and rape share at least one overlapping moral category (or violation thereof). That is not to say cheating is of the same magnitude as rape -- but it is of the same nature, because immense willpower must be used to violate the sanctities of many people.</p>
<p>Laxi, I thikn you misunderstood me. when I said standing on the moral right side is of course easier It was aimed at you people who post and say they support the fact that the OP should go. You don't have to fight against comments and disses that basically say" wow, you are evil". The person who takes the risk of reporting is of course brave as I said he could suffer retaliation. </p>
<p>I feel sorry about the guy who faked his teacher's rec mainly because first I think faking teacher rec is not that of a big deal to me. In my school, all teachers do rec; all you do is submit a form telling the teacher a bit about yourself and they will "BS" something up. Maybe its different in your school in which recs are harder to get. But for something that easy to obtain and I don't believe it had a huge impact on the admission. I don't think its worth ruining someone's life over(and you know if this gets reported the guy who faked his rec would get his admission rescinded). Thats why people like me and zzboy said we would have done the something similiar if it was during the admission process not two week before the start of school so it would give the guy a lot more options. And yes I would help the old lady, not as a sense of justice or to feel good by standing on moral high ground but because I would feel sorry for the old lady. I also believe with the skill and ability to even get accepted to Yale. The guy would be a great addition to the US community as long as he change his ways. Thats why I added in my other post that if he continues to lie and cheat and gets caught. Then he should feel the consequences. But another thing I feel bad about is the fact that OP said he hated the guy who told him. I highly doubt he will even think about repoting this event to the school if the guy was his best friend which makes me feel even more sorry for the guy who faked his recs. </p>
<p>Galo: I thought China was a communist country so you know: big business=evil. I highly doubt that they support Bill Gates because I think those are the people you know who communists kill and burn at stakes..</p>
<p>All in all: Laxi if we use your old lady thing. I would help the old lady because someone is getting seriosuly hurt if they get pummeled. You make it sound as if I am heartless and just watch. But what you don't understand is everyone wants to stand on the moral right side because then they are "good" side and gets more support from the general public. but I choose to stand on the moral wrong side because I feel sry for the guy who faked his rec. In that case, we would both help the old lady. One would do it out of moral and I would do it because I would feel compassion for the old lady.</p>
<p>As the actual case, I just dont think the crime fits the punishment as most people here have different opinion on how seerious the crime is. If you think this s a serious crime, then of course his admission should be rescinded. For me at least(maybe it is because how easy it is to get a teacher's rec in my HS), I don't think its a serious crime so getting his admission revoked to me at least is the wrong punishment.</p>
<p>I think you should have turned him in when you had the chance, not two weeks before school starts. That's a bit harsh. But I do agree that this kid needs some sort of punishment, I'm just not sure what is the best thing to do now. </p>
<p>On a related note, I have a situation myself. My math teacher has agreed to write recs for me and other kids in my class but stated in front of the class (half jokingly I have to admit) that she might just have us write our own recs in her name and she'd just check and sign them in the end. If she were being serious, would this be a dishonest thing to do?</p>
<p>Completely agree with you hippo. As I said before, I would have supported the OP's decesion to tell Yale if it was early when he first found out. But doing it, it now seems cruel espeically two weeks before the start of most schools...</p>
<p>And for your story, my bio teacher is really similiar. He is just lazy. He said he would sign it as long as we bs within limits(yes he literally used "bs" as he was telling us). Of course, he is the student's favorite teacher because of his not caring style of teaching.</p>
<p>Tell guidance and let them contact Yale, you shouldn't directly intervene. This person deserves to fry what he did was absolutely wrong and severe lapse in integrity. He took a decent, hard-working and most importantly HONEST student's spot away. That's wrong!</p>