<p>Xbank, the PRC is only ostensibly communist. That's the thing. I take comfort it the fact that you haven't been taken in with the delightful acrobatics of Deng Xiaoping theory, clearly you must know that last scene in Animal Farm. It's a well-known irony. And Bill IS worshipped in China, just like Kobe.</p>
<p>Galo: The only thing I know about DXP is that he took back Hong Kong form the British. I never watched Animal Farm. </p>
<p>I formed my point of view from a documentry called "is greedy bad?" or some title to that type of meaning. But I seriosuly don't believe people worship Bill Gates(Im not surprised about Kobe though cause he just owns.)</p>
<p>xbankx, galoisien, Animal Farm was a book. Galoisien, congrats on admission to UVA. Did you graduate from South Portland High?</p>
<p>Looks like OP has moved on this issue, so I won't offer advice but did want to say to those who say he must be so wonderful that surely Yale would have wanted him anyway and that teacher recs don't play such a large role -- if the kid was willing to forge his teachers' names on letters, what makes you think he isn't embellishing other parts of his application?</p>
<p>OK so I think people need to think a bit more carefully about their moral views. Where does our sense of morality come from? </p>
<p>Some of you mentioned about helping an old lady who is being attacked. WHY do feel the need to help her? You'll probably respond by saying it's a "gut feeling." But where does that come from? </p>
<p>So for you people who say that the OP should turn this guy in, even with no benefit to oneself, I'd like to hear a real reason why you suggest this. "It's the right thing to do" ? Why? Just because you signed a piece of paper saying you would do something, why do you necessarily have to do it?</p>
<p>From an evolution point of view, it seems that one would be more inclined to do something that would benefit himself. Also, you might want to help someone who could potentially later repay you back, since that would benefit you. But this case fits neither.</p>
<p>"it just PROVES my point that most people on CC are freaking GEEKS and think that cheating is the worst thing anybody could do. there are SO many worse things that people do besides cheating yet people dont go crazy about reporting them!"</p>
<p>I'm sorry that I don't know any mass murderers and can turn them in. I'll have to make do with the cheaters, I guess.</p>
<p>"Yea, Baelor... let YALE decide but we all have a pretty good idea of what is going to happen.. we do not know but it is likely"</p>
<p>So he deserves it. If the institution kicks him out, then BY DEFINITION it is what he deserved, because Yale is "God" in this scenario.</p>
<p>"But for this, I don't see anyone getting hurt."</p>
<p>Someone doesn't have to get hurt for something to be wrong, number one. That thinking is a perverse product of the modern mentality. Second, he did keep someone out of Yale at some point (hypothetically), which means that he did hurt someone. </p>
<p>"Im saying that if no one gain from this, so why do it? It only cause pain and humiliation. For what? Your own sense of justice? I think reporting is truly the selfish thing to do."</p>
<p>It DOESN'T MATTER. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? HE BROKE THE RULES HE AGREED TO. THAT IS THE ONLY RELEVANT PIECE OF INFORMATION HERE. He signed a contract. There was no time limit for when the fraud could have an impact. YALE AGREED TO THE CONTRACT AS WELL. </p>
<p>"No reason to ruin his life over it."</p>
<p>Man, you are seriously messed up. THERE WAS A CONTRACT. RULES ARE RULES. HE AGREED TO THEM. Why should he not follow them? Again, I repeat: HE AGREED TO THEM. It didn't say that the fraud was only relevant during the admissions process. So why does it matter that it's so near to the school year?</p>
<p>"The right thing to do may not always be the most beneficial to the community."</p>
<p>Okay, let's make this VERY CLEAR. YALE agreed to adopt the Common App. It therefore agreed that the contract about fraudulent applications applied to its admissions process. Student signs this contract. He AGREED TO FOLLOW THE RULES. He breaks the rules.</p>
<p>The only question in this discussion that matters: Should he be forced to follow the rules? If the answer is yes, then reporting him is a totally and undisputed consequence of this, because forcing him to follow the rules would entail making sure that he doesn't get away with breaking them.</p>
<p>Second most important question: Would Yale want to know about the fraudulent recs? </p>
<p>The answer is clearly yes, they would at least want to know. So there you go. </p>
<p>"I feel sorry about the guy who faked his teacher's rec mainly because first I think faking teacher rec is not that of a big deal to me."</p>
<p>It doesn't matter that the crime itself wasn't a big deal. By advocating this viewpoint, you are implicitly saying that honesty itself is not important to you. By extension, you are saying that you are not a trustworthy person. I know it sounds harsh, but if these principles were at all important to you, then you would uphold the sanctity of the contract the student signed. You have just demonstrated that you value neither justice nor credibility.</p>
<p>"I don't think its worth ruining someone's life over(and you know if this gets reported the guy who faked his rec would get his admission rescinded)."</p>
<p>Oh, please. A ruined life? You are sad if you honestly think that this will ruin his life. Two years in a community college, then on to a four-year university in all likelihood. Yale doesn't want cheaters. Is that a surprise?</p>
<p>"The guy would be a great addition to the US community as long as he change his ways. Thats why I added in my other post that if he continues to lie and cheat and gets caught. Then he should feel the consequences."</p>
<p>I don't understand. Explain this to me. I fail to comprehend why this kid would ever change his ways if he never gets caught. Don't say he will, because you have no idea and it's a claim you absolutely cannot make.</p>
<p>"I highly doubt he will even think about repoting this event to the school if the guy was his best friend which makes me feel even more sorry for the guy who faked his recs."</p>
<p>That doesn't mean that the kid shouldn't be turned in. Too bad for the guy. Fraud = wrong. Doesn't matter who it is. Someone got caught. </p>
<p>"As the actual case, I just dont think the crime fits the punishment as most people here have different opinion on how seerious the crime is."</p>
<p>Again, I don't know why this is an issue. What we think of as a fitting punishment really doesn't matter. What Yale thinks matters. And for you to say that Yale's opinion could be wrong is incredibly arrogant. How can you say that Yale's committee doesn't know what it wants in a student body?</p>
<p>people like me and and bank are NOT morally effed up people. i love helping people just as much as you guys do. its just in this case, i would avoid snitching as much as possible. not only is there the possibility of getting hurt (get real guys, the OP is probably one of the only people he told, and the school/Yale does not randomly verify the teacher recs for fun), its just so late in the process that no one will be able to take his spot.</p>
<p>no, actually, i dont even care that someone else lost a spot. props to him for fighting a messed up education system IMO.</p>
<p>man i thought all guys were under the no-snitching code, but i suppose ill have to be more cautious if i do anything "ethically" wrong in the future.</p>
<p>As a YALE STUDENT, I think I can weigh in:</p>
<p>I think there is a VERY HIGH possibility that you are confused and that the teacher recs were perfectly legitimate. If someone had asked me "who wrote your college recs?" in an annoying tone, I might sardonically reply, "I forged them." Moreover, considering that you already admitted you don't like the kid, you may have clouded judgment.</p>
<p>ACCUSATIONS OF CHEATING ARE VERY SERIOUS. There was a transfer student from Columbia to Yale recently who had forged teacher recs. He was expelled and arrested, so clearly Yale cares about such things.</p>
<p>That said, I think you did a GREAT thing by contacting teachers/gc if there is any doubt. Cheaters need to be exposed (and fyi, cheating at Yale is not common -- I also attended Stanford for a while and it was much more common there). IF THIS KID ACTUALLY DID FORGE LETTERS, HE DESERVES TO BE EXPELLED FROM YALE (BOOT HIM)!!!</p>
<p>My bet is this all turns out to be nothing and that you have just overreacted, but I see no foul in double checking in a polite manner....</p>
<p>^ Exactly. The thing that was weird to me (and the OP) was the he said that completely different teachers wrote them to different people. Unless he is a major jerk, I wouldn't see why he would do this and then lie.</p>
<p>zzzboy, I understand the safety concern. But if the school doesn't mention they got a tip and the OP doesn't even act like anything is up, I would be surprised if the forger thought that snitching was a more likely cause than the administration just noticing. As I said, it's easy for something to slip out or say something that leads to something else, etc. until the whole thing comes out.</p>
<p>People cheat; that's life. Unless it is something truly affecting others and yourself, forget about it and move on.</p>
<p>At S's school, the students give the teachers the rec forms and stamped envelopes, the teacher writes the letter, keeps a copy of it for his/her personal records, seals and signs the outside of the envelope, and then sends it to the GC, who checks it off and actually mails it.</p>
<p>There is a clear chain of custody.</p>
<p>I think reporting the issue to the teachers was the best thing to do in this case. That way, if they did write the recs, they'll just confirm it and move on. If not, the ball is in their court in regards to reporting the student - the OP just needed to bring the matter to the attention of those who can confirm it. Let the school do the dirty work of reporting the student to Yale, if it comes to that. Let the higher powers (your school, Yale) decide the matter. Your only role is to bring it to their attention, and the OP has done that, so it's out of his hands now.</p>
<p>I think the kid the OP's talking about is probably being sarcastic. Seriously, would someone admit that they faked their teacher recs like that? I doubt it.</p>
<p>Guys, the student cannot tell Yale about this issue. He must tell his teachers before that because how is Yale going to know that this student is right (I mean - the one who is reporting)? You may have answered this. If so - I am sorry</p>
<p>Agree w/ you zzzboy, if its something that he thought could actually F-up his admission and if he was smart enough to get into Yale, I highly doubt he told many people. And as I said before, I only feel sorry for the guy because he basically have no options left since its so late into summer vacation. If this post was up during the accepting admission period, I would have been up there with you Baelor fighting to report the cheater. </p>
<p>But yea Baelor, I don't want to argue with you cause we have different view points and I doubt either of us will be able to change the other's viewpoint. </p>
<p>I agree with the no-sntiching policy that zzzboy said up to the point of someone acutally might get hurt then i stop my policy(seriosuly so many people in my school cheat on tests its not even funny). If my friend brings a knife or gun to school. I dont care about being a sntich. </p>
<p>Also me and zzzboy are not morally f-ed up people. If you look at my past posts and threads, I take even minor mistakes seriosuly if its on myself. Like I joined chinese club in 12th grade but failed to complete the full 25 hours I said I would do since I forgot to sign up for the club in my second semester(juggling clubs, while keeping a 4.0 UW grade as well as senoritiris is really hard). But I lose sleep so much due to that minor mistake on the EC(that and its the only time I made a mistake on an important document). I am also very kind so I hate to see people losing their college acceptance. I don't see what the OP can gain from this. First whether it turns out to be true or false, the other guy will probably not only retialate but might do stuff thats much wrose to your family and friends. I just don't think its justified to risk the op's own life as well as his family's for something that doesn't affect him at all. If the guy who got snitched spreads the news, the OP's college life isn't going to be very fun. People in college hate snitches and trust me on that. </p>
<p>The main way I think of this(not speaking for zzzboy even though I think we have similiar reasoning):</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I really don't care about Yale accepting a cheater or not, Im not gonna feel sry for Yale just because it has one cheater in its school. Heck there are probably hundreds of cheaters in Yale who got in legit. People just cheat what can you do? The best you can do is not cheat with them.</p></li>
<li><p>Doing it this late just seemed messed up</p></li>
<li><p>I kinda agree with Kingofqueens.</p></li>
<li><p>the OP seriosuly not only gains nothing but also dangers himself and his family whether the rumor is true or not. I would put my family's welfare and my welfare ahead of trying to do something thats morally right yet doesn't seriously hurt anyone. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>5.OP would also hurt his own reputation(seriously lets be real whether its in college or in HS, a snitch will always be a snitch and who do we hate the most in HS and college? Sntichs)</p>
<ol>
<li>the OP seriosuly not only gains nothing but also dangers himself and his family whether the rumor is true or not. I would "not" put my family's welfare and my welfare ahead of trying to do something that doesn't seriously hurt anyone. </li>
</ol>
<p>my bad typo :)</p>
<p>OP would also hurt his own reputation(seriously lets be real whether its in college or in HS, a snitch will always be a snitch and who do we hate the most in HS and college? Sntichs)</p>
<p>xbankx, actually the answer to the question, 'who do we hate the most in HS and college' is "cheaters." The morals you reveal in all your posts are repugnant and unbelievably selfish. </p>
<p>You didn't like my "old lady mugging" analogy. Can we try some others? </p>
<p>Let's assume that OP and Yalecheater were in the same grade. Both applied to Yale. Assume that Yale had allocated 1 slot for admission from their high school. The letters come - OP's out, Yalecheater's in. OP then finds out that Yalecheater forged his recommendations. </p>
<p>With your moral compass, I assume you would say it's ok to turn him in because he hurt you directly. So it seems your morals would turn on whether or not you could benefit from turning someone else in. </p>
<p>So let's try some twists. Let's assume Yalecheater was a great candidate and, had he not cheated, was worthy of admission anyway. So are you. And, assume that you got into some other school that would make you very happy, with equal prestige. So you're not really hurt. Would you turn him in?</p>
<p>yea bank i agree totally with you. </p>
<p>even though no one benefits from reporting him, people will still argue that its the ethically correct thing to do.</p>
<p>get real people. if you feel accomplished by reporting a cheater, then you have serious self-esteem issues. let cheaters do what they want. its cool if you choose to not participate in cheating, but snitching is just damn wrong. how would you feel if someone snitched every time you did something wrong? if you have EVER done anything against the rules/law (underage drinking, drugs, etc) and got away with it, then you are in no position to even think about snitching. if you have EVER copied on a small worksheet, talked during a test, copied during a test, or even got answers from previous periods, then you are in no position to be snitching.</p>
<p>if you have NEVER done anything against school rules or the law (even the smallest offense), then, and only then, are you justified in snitching. having that characteristic, im afraid, is virtually impossible.</p>
<p>edit: laxtaxi, i would confront him about it if it were admissions season and tell him not to do it. i wouldnt tell yale, though. i wouldnt even turn him in even if he took my spot, actually. i would just think to myself "what a b!tch" and move on with my life.</p>
<p>people cheat. ***** happens. if you need to expose all of these people just to get ahead in life, then youre weak. plain and simple.</p>
<p>So, let me get you right here, if I've ever done something wrong, even the smallest offense, then I shouldn't tell if someone is doing something wrong, even the largest offense? I just want to make sure I have you right and you don't say I'm putting words in your mouth.</p>
<p>YES because it is NOT your discretion to decide how large/small an offense is. if youve EVER done something wrong and gotten away with it, then youre a straight hypocrite if you turn someone else in. cheating on a test and cheating in admissions is the SAME thing.</p>
<p>it doesnt matter if you steal one penny or one million dollars, youre still stealing. thus, snitching is not justified if you have committed even the smallest crime and gotten away with it.</p>