Fastest-Growing Ethnic Category at Great Colleges: "Race Unknown"

Applying to College
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Context is very important in any discussion. That is why your "outward appearances" does not refer to physical beauty, weight, and so forth.

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<p>Actually, if the folk classification 'race' did include those categories than it would also be up for discussion. And, discrimination based on those characteristics do affect how American society sees individuals outside the norm. Hence, the obsession with body image, status, et al. in mass media.</p>

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In context, your "outward appearances" refers to race. Though race does not exist, some nevertheless believe there is a biological basis for race, and of this group, some choose to act on their belief in prejudiced ways. Racism still exists even though race doesn't.

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<p>Yep, correct. Those who want to keep distinctions (and the power structure the same) define the term 'race' in socio-cultural terms. As for a biological basis for 'race', there is none.</p>

<p>The upshot: Most people argue the socio-cultural folk classification of 'race', and not the biological one. I believe, biologically, all people are similar at birth, with a standard distribution of many characteristics. I also believe, that the dominant culture does affect the quality of life and access to resources that favor the group at the top in the socio-cultural definition of 'race'. </p>

<p>So, race does exist as a social term, but not in a biological sense. So, race as a socio-cultural term does mean that there is also racism. With respect to biology, there is no race, so there would be no racism--in theory. </p>

<p>The problem is that the socio-cultural definition has already been defined by the majority and acted upon, so 'race' as a definition cannot be just said to not exist or be erased for people who have grown up under such norms and call that being fair.</p>

<p>If that were the case, I would not support economic AA or the like as society would have no effect on an individual.</p>

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<p><a href="%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059986693-post541.html%5D#541%5B/url%5D"&gt;quote&lt;/a&gt;...The problem is that the socio-cultural definition has already been defined by the majority and acted upon, so 'race' as a definition cannot be just said to not exist or be erased for people who have grown up under such norms and call that being fair...

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<p>The very title of this thread, "The Fastest-Growing Ethnic Category at Great Colleges: "Race Unknown", is evidence that the socio-cultural definition can change. Colleges can't make classifications without the data on which to classify. </p>

<p>Here's a direct appeal to all future college applicants: </p>

<p>Opt out of self-identifying yourself as anything other than 'Human' when applying to college. Then adopt this philosophy for the rest of your life, including the selection of your future spouse.</p>

<p>By following this course of action, our society will be transformed in just one generation.</p>

543

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Opt out of self-identifying yourself as anything other than 'Human' when applying to college. Then adopt this philosophy for the rest of your life, including the selection of your future spouse.

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<p>Works for me. It's a free country, and some people will do otherwise, but I think I best help solve the problems of the past by not identifying with any group smaller than humanity when thinking about what "race" I belong to, or any smaller than my country when I think about what polity I should belong to and improve.</p>

544

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Opt out of self-identifying yourself as anything other than 'Human' when applying to college. Then adopt this philosophy for the rest of your life, including the selection of your future spouse.

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I disagree. If we did that, right now, we would be assuming that the past does not affect the present and future. Realistically, the only way we can achieve such a goal as a society is through increased diversity and genuine interaction between races.</p>

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By following this course of action, our society will be transformed in just one generation.

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Can someone spell out all of the benefits of all students marking race unknown?</p>

<p>Also, I have a question: is any one in this thread supporting getting rid of ethnic identities, too? After all, those are "made up" too.</p>

545

<p><a href="%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059987270-post544.html%5D#544%5B/url%5D"&gt;quote&lt;/a&gt;...I disagree. If we did that [Opt</a> out of self-identifying], right now, we would be assuming that the past does not affect the present and future...

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<p>College applicants: Don't just be a captive to the stream's current. With paddle in hand, navigate to the future you want.</p>

546

<p>"Works for me. It's a free country, and some people will do otherwise, but I think I best help solve the problems of the past by not identifying with any group smaller than humanity when thinking about what "race" I belong to, or any smaller than my country when I think about what polity I should belong to and improve."</p>

<p>I concur.</p>

<p>"I disagree. If we did that, right now, we would be assuming that the past does not affect the present and future. Realistically, the only way we can achieve such a goal as a society is through increased diversity and genuine interaction between races."</p>

<p>I think this is commonly referred to as dwelling on the past...As I said earlier and I'm guessing you didn't read it...in holistic admissions there is an essay where you can talk about how you have had to overcome a challenge in your life. If this challenge happens to be racism then I (and I think most other people) am all for someone talking about how they have been affected/overcome this obstacle. Now, there are many other obstacles people of all "races" have had to overcome...I gave the example of being short which definately has led to much disadvantage/criticism.</p>

547

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If this challenge happens to be racism then I (and I think most other people) am all for someone talking about how they have been affected/overcome this obstacle.

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<p>Yes. If an applicant is someone who has experienced invidious prejudice because of ethnic affiliation, any college with a "holistic" admission process allows that applicant to write an essay about that aspect of life experience. It would definitely be helpful to a college community to include lots of people who can speak from personal experience about the wrongness of such prejudice. Because, as I have noted in various posts above, a lot of places don't even categorize people in the same arbitrary categories as are found in college application form questions about ethnic affiliation, it isn't clear that such questions add much value to a holistic admission process. In any event, colleges are happy to admit applicants who decline to answer the ethnic self-identification questions, who may or may not have written about real-life consequences of ethnic affiliation in their essays.</p>

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<p>IsleBoy,</p>

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Again, good debate technique. Majority, as it pertains to America, is White, primarily. And, you seem to want simplicity. That term 'non-URM majority' pertains to some Asian groups as well, when it comes to college admissions. But, you wanted the White in place of that, which does itself exclude some Asians, and some poor whites. Circular logic on both sides. Not surprising.

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<p>I don't see how correcting a mistake that relates to me is considered a "good debate tactic." You said you were asked to use white instead of 'non-URM.' But, that is not true, for I requested that you use white in place of 'non-URM majority.'</p>

<p>The majority in the United States is white. And, 'white' is much simpler than 'non-URM majority.' Since I strongly believe in the keep it simple, stupid principle, I never use convoluted phrases like 'non-URM majority.'</p>

<p>If you feel that some Asian groups should be part of the "non-URM majority," even though Asians as a whole only make up 4% of our country's population, then go right on ahead. "Whites and Asians" is still a much simpler and more straightforward phrase than "non-URM majority."</p>

<p>I don't see how poor whites aren't white. Their being poor does not in any way make them not white.</p>

549

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If this challenge happens to be racism then I (and I think most other people) am all for someone talking about how they have been affected/overcome this obstacle.

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I am sorry but I thoroughly disagree with you and tokenadult. I think that certain things like gender, "race", family background (family type, location, etc.), and socio-economic class have a clear impact on a person's life. These are the obvious things that entirely shape a person's worldview.</p>

<p>I agree that the impact of these factors should not always be assumed, and that, yes, essays are a good place for applicants to explain how these things affected them. </p>

<p>However, if your stance is that race should not be considered because applicants can talk about how their race affected them in their essays, well that just does not make sense. Colleges consider the essays, so, if an applicant writes his or her essay about how race affected his or her life, how is it any different than just asking for the race in the first place? Either way the colleges consider race.</p>

<p>Lastly, my greatest fear was that everyone would get off topic and start debating the history of Affirmative Action and whether or not it should have been created. That did happen. People have been assuming that Affirmative Action is used for the same reasons today as it was 30 years ago, which just is not true. It's merely used to promote diversity of all kinds on college campuses. If you all do not support this, how do you expect us to ever get to point in time where we call "Henry, Henry?" How can we ever get past racial stereotypes without increased interaction between races?</p>

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I don't see how poor whites aren't white. Their being poor does not in any way make them not white.

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He means poor Whites are not considered non-URMs like wealthier Whites are.</p>

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<p>I disagree with what you say but defend to the death your right to say it--Voltaire.</p>

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I disagree with what you say but defend to the death your right to say it--Voltaire.

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I wish you would elaborate some more, but I suspect you are tired of this discussion.</p>

<p>Anyways, tokenadult and lookingforwhat, do you guys come from pretty good socio-economic backgrounds? I suspect you both come from diverse backgrounds and interact with people of all different races? Your conclusion is one of someone who has already benefited from being around all different types of diversity. I would just like to say that not all people are as fortunate as you two to have had that experience. Personally, I think that if I lived in a more diverse place, I would have the same outlook as you two, but I don't. My school is 95% White, I have been the only African American kid in Honors/AP classes all 4 years of high school, and there are no East Asians at my school, period. I hope this helps you better understand my perspective on the issue.</p>

552

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do you guys come from pretty good socio-economic backgrounds?

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<p>Nope, no better than middling. Descendant of serfs and other landless peasants here. Most of my life my family's (my birth family's, and now the family of my wife and children) income has been at best at the median level of the United States, or at or below the median level of any other country we have lived in. </p>

<p>I grew up in a school district near where I live now that at the time had TWO Asian-American (one Chinese-American and one Japanese-American) graduates in my high school graduating class, and maybe one more Asian-American (the cousin of a guy in my class) in one of the other two high schools. No black students whatsoever. That school district has changed enormously in one generation, as most of the state of Minnesota has. (Minneapolis has more Somali people living in it than any city but Mogadishu, and St. Paul has more Hmong people living in it than all but a few places in the whole world.) </p>

<p>I'm happy to say that the school district I live in now, and crucially the immediate neighborhood I live in now, has had a much greater variety of people throughout my oldest son's life. Housing segregation is a terrible thing, and is an issue that is still being resolved. I get the impression that in some parts of the United States many neighborhoods are still very monoethnic. People can usually learn to get along with one another if someone doesn't actively Jim Crow them or redline them out of the chance to practice getting along. Quite a few posts ago, I cited the case from Massachusetts during Horace Mann's lifetime that held that black freemen living in Boston had to send their children to SEGREGATED public schools--remember, the public school system as we know it today in American originated in Massachusetts--even if they lived in integrated neighborhoods. Me, I like integrated neighborhoods, and live in one, and integrated learning situations (and set up our joint homeschooling classes without ethnic prejudice), and being aware of lots of cuisines and styles of music and so on and so on. But, no, I've never been particularly affluent, having worked in the nonprofit or governmental sectors nearly all of my life. My family has highly valued education for several generations, so I grew up in a house cram full of books.</p>

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I think that certain things like gender, "race", family background (family type, location, etc.), and socio-economic class have a clear impact on a person's life.

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<p>Well, which of those things is most decisive, or most of relevance to a college application? What kind of influence might result in a person growing up to have a different perspective from the one the person grew up with?</p>

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Well, which of those things is most decisive, or most of relevance to a college application? What kind of influence might result in a person growing up to have a different perspective from the one the person grew up with?

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What I have been saying is that they are all pretty decisive and are all relevant to the college application. (The status quo supports that.) A part of me tells me that colleges not only use the "holistic" admissions process to evaluate an applicant's achievements in the context of their lives, but to see how "unique" the applicant is too. </p>

<p>I see it that they ask you for your race, family background, gender, etc. and try to see if you will surprise them with your essay and show your uniqueness. It's almost like they take those factors, try to stereotype you, and wait to see if your essays can disprove their judgement of you. (Of course, this is after the applicant has been deemed qualified.) Otherwise, I do not understand what colleges mean when they say they are looking for "unique" applicants.</p>

<p>Also, I don't understand your second question.</p>

555

<p>Hi, Newjack88, I may not understand my second question either, now that it's not as late at night as when I posted it :) , but I think what I was getting at was this: </p>

<p>A young person goes off to college with a collection of life experiences, influenced by various characteristics of that young person and the young person's family and neighborhood. If that person goes off to a college with a lot of other young people with varied backgrounds, would you expect all of them to change and adapt because of the experience of knowing one another? I would expect that, and that is one of the main reasons I encourage my son to </p>

<p>a) apply to a college far out of the region we live in, </p>

<p>and </p>

<p>b) full of students from all family economic levels. </p>

<p>I don't have to encourage him to seek ethnic diversity, because he seeks that for himself. He would find it very boring to attend a college that includes only people from the majority ethnic group around here--which he is not fully part of.</p>

556

<p>Hello, I just came up with a thought on URMs who complain that AA puts them in an advantage (which may be slight for some, great for others) on college admissions.</p>

<p>Why don't all the URMs who think they can get in by their own merits put themselves as "Race Unknown"?</p>

<p>PS: This is a neutral thread, and I am by no means launching an attack on AA. In fact, I support AA, but just wanted to make this suggestion.</p>

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<p>and why is it you support AA?</p>

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<p>My dad told me a very true line:</p>

<p>"Life is hard, take the gifts you are given. Pride is a foolish thing to value."</p>

<p>It doesn't matter if you are completely undeserving of even setting foot on that campus(which would never happen, but for the sake of argument), if you take that gift and make the best of it - it was no longer undeserved. If you make the best of your opportunities - you deserve them. The only undeserved positions are those given to the people who waste the opportunities given to them.</p>

<p>FellowCCViewer - That question can only lead to a flame war, and although this thread is almost certainly headed for that path, don't force it that way. If that is your topic, start (another) thread titled: "Why do you support AA?"</p>

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<p>Good reply DSC, I like the concept</p>

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<p>But some people are given opportunities, waste them and then still manage to get in over those who embraced theirs.</p>