Fastest-Growing Ethnic Category at Great Colleges: "Race Unknown"

Applying to College
661

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how many do you suppose are there of these wealthy advantaged URM's are there?

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<p>The question wasn't directed to me, and I don't offer a definition of "wealthy" here, nor do I offer a definition of "URM." I will relate a statement I read, which should be verifiable through official statistics, that there are 1 million families in the United States whose ethnicity is recorded as "black" and whose household income is $100,000 per year or greater. I haven't verified this statement, but that sounds plausible, and the income range mentioned, although solidly middle class rather than wealthy in some parts of the country, is substantially above the United States median household income.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the compliment FLVADAD. I have lots of these discussions with my co workers, so I've had a little practice. One thing is for sure is that once you present a different point of view and substantiate it with facts, much of the anger and emotion is squelched from those who are in opposition of AA. If nothing else if gives them food for thought. Many try to downplay the impact of race in everyday living until faced with a situation that they believe is being compromised due to someone or something that they feel doesn't measure up to their embedded ideals of qualified. Sometimes, that someone is a person of color. Many of those in the majority relate to justice, fairness and equality based on the way that they've been indoctrinated. They also have a deep sense of merit and who is deserving based on that conditioning. That's understandable. That doesn't make it right. I enjoy being able to share a different perspective and hope to help some to, at the very least, understand what people of color have to deal with to have opportunities that are so taken for granted by those more fortunate. I am not an apologist for those that have a victomology mentality. I simply attempt to illustrate how disproportunate opportunities in higher education are for people of color. Even that wealthy high achieving AA isn't on par with his white counterpart in many comparisons. If you are able to see it the way I do, maybe I can in a very small way help to bring understanding and solutions to bridge those disparities.</p>

<p>Another one of my favorite quotes. Think about this when you think about who makes the decisions that impact us all. Even AdComs:</p>

<p>"In short, and let us be clear on it: race is not a card. It determines who the dealer is and who gets dealt."</p>

663

<p>@ fredfredburger - LOL! I was thinking the same thing!!!</p>

<p>It just speaks to the immaturity of the people here on CC and their lack of critical thinking....which probably explains why they did not get into their top colleges.</p>

<p>By the way - congrats on your achievements. What angers me is that some of these students with numbers far below yours will pass you on the college campus and say to themselves: "there goes a product of Affirmative action".</p>

<p>That to me is the worst part of this whole silly discussion. It empowers ignorance. </p>

<p>@ Madville - excellent post. But probably too sophistcated for those who are hell bent on blaming others who do not look like them, for their lack of success.</p>

<p>Kudos to Newjack's post as well....thank God there is more than just book smarts on CC - there is also intelligence as well.</p>

664

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Don't they have to practice affirmative action for certain funding or other things? If no money is paid to the school by the government, then I have no problem with that case of affirmative action other than the fact I find it to be a ridiculous preference.

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No.</p>

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I think we need a truly holistic system, where race is considered as a factor but NOT over other factors, more important factors such as school quality, parental education and family status (single parent?), income, and life obstacles such as immigration or abuse. There shouldn't be a separate office for URM admissions, as there is at many top colleges. We should look at each applicant as INDIVIDUAL, not in the context of race primarily.

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Lord, this is so frustrating. First of all, "not in the context of race primarily," where did you get that from? I am not going to rip you for saying that because I know it's just an ineffective, if not detrimental, use of overstatement.</p>

<p>Anyways, holistic admissions are designed to assess achievement in context. Do you hear that? "IN CONTEXT." Any one, regardless of race, who had a lot of opportunities available to them will be expected to achieve more. Look at FredFredBurger. (I am assuming he's from a relatively wealthy family, or at least went to a school with many opportunities.) </p>

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Affirmative action is not extinct and it still plays a huge role in college admissions today, especially for top schools like the Ivies. It indisputably helps URMs get into top colleges. In fact, many - though not all - URMs would not be attending Princeton or Yale or Stanford if they were Caucasian or Asian. I simply cannot understand how some people believe that AA is no longer in effect because its existence is very much apparent.

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Are you complaining about Affirmative Action or the fact that colleges want to create a diverse student body?</p>

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give me a break, diversity is overrated. wasn't michelle obama's thesis at princeton about this crap called diversity. I said some AA deserved to be in elite schools, but not to the points where it becomes an apparent joke and slap in the face of those who works so much harder.

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What?</p>

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What was your GPA fredfredburger?

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I don't think it matters. People on CC believe that all the URMs who get into HYP, etc. get in with 1800 SATs, 3.0 GPAs, weak courseload, and no ECs. They believe that if a URM gets above 2000 on the SAT, he or she will be a shoe in to HYP, etc.</p>

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<p>@ Board - in this talk about affirmative action, we are still only talking about 5-6% of college spots...right? </p>

<p>This is what we are debating???</p>

666

<p>I invite participants new to this thread to look at my post number 499 above </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059979379-post499.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059979379-post499.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>for why I care about this issue as deeply as I do. I appreciate the several participants of varying points of view who are responding to posts about contentious issues calmly and without name-calling. That's a good example to everyone in this mega-combined thread.</p>

667

<p>Newjack, why dont you attempt to respond to private school tax-exempt status someone just mentioned? The government indirectly subsidizes these school by not collecting on their capital gain.</p>

668

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Newjack, why dont you attempt to respond to private school tax-exempt status someone just mentioned? The government indirectly subsidizes these school by not collecting on their capital gain.

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Well, because, though the thought process was ok, the thought was incorrect. The reason why those funds are tax exempt is to encourage the schools to be generous with financial aid. It has nothing to do with Affirmative Action. Anyways, the person completely ignored the fact that it's the schools themselves that want a diverse student body. No one is forcing them to do this. Affirmative Action has to exist so that these schools can legally practice holistic admissions.</p>

669

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Affirmative Action has to exist so that these schools can legally practice holistic admissions.

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<p>Could you show some more work to back up this statement, please? I'm also taking care to note that I am not at all sure what you mean by "affirmative action" in this context, as that is a term with equivocal, not universally agreed, meaning.</p>

670

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I like how everyone virtually ignored my post, that provided although a one-time scenario, evidence that contradicted the AA naysers theory.

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<p>It didn't contradict anything. Nobody ever said being "under-represented" has the power of auto-admission.</p>

<p>madville,</p>

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In short, and let us be clear on it: race is not a card. It determines who the dealer is and who gets dealt.

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<p>I'm not that big of a Tim Wise fan. I find that he occasionally stretches things way too far just so he can make a point. For example, he's talked about Michigan's pre-2003 point system. Twenty points were given if the applicant was a "URM." A certain amount of points, less than twenty, was also given if the applicant lived in a certain area of Michigan that was fairly wealthy. He ridicules the stigmatization theory of affirmative action by asking whether or not white students who receive the geographic point bonus will feel stigmatized. He purposely forgot that you can't tell if a guy comes from X part of Michigan, but you can tell if a guy is "URM" because he's a visible minority. As another example, during a debate with John McWhorter, he responded to McWhorter's reference to the mismatch hypothesis by asking him whether or not males also suffered from a mismatch, to the loud applause of the audience. Again, he purposely forgot that the stats deficit between whites and blacks is astronomical compared to the stats deficit between males and females. The worst is when he claimed that Barry Bonds was getting the heat because he's black. Uh, did he forget that Mark McGwire's chances for being inducted into the Hall of Fame went close to zero because of steroids, not race?</p>

671

<p>"A full-pay African-American URM with 2300 SATs? I will pay you a dollar for every one of those you can confirm was rejected by Harvard, Yale, Princeton, make it all the Ivies, add in Stanford, Duke, NYU, Wake Forest, Wellesley, and Smith. If it adds up to a pizza, I'll include a free topping."</p>

<p>"have been reading here that being a URM is a slight tip but from what I've heard it's actually a strong shove.
However, in restropect, I read there are only 200+ URMs that have SAT>2200 and are NMS. So I think he is in a small group of people that are coveted by top colleges."</p>

<p>"If you're an African American male though, you're sitting pretty."</p>

<p>I think it did contradict it. And anyway, if I were to ask all you Anit AA people if you'd expect an African American male to get rejected from top schools with a 2370 SAT, you'd say no.</p>

672

<p>^But it's not all about SAT. GPA is also important. I believe you have a low GPA<3.5 while the person I mentioned in the above quote has higher GPA than that. I believe it's 3.6-3.7uw. He did not get accepted to all Ivy schools however his admission results are better than most people this year.</p>

673

<p>
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Could you show some more work to back up this statement, please? I'm also taking care to note that I am not at all sure what you mean by "affirmative action" in this context, as that is a term with equivocal, not universally agreed, meaning.

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Modern day Affirmative Action and holistic admissions are the same thing. Both promote diversity, or increasing the representation of under-represented groups. Without Affirmative Action, schools that practice holistic admissions would be forced to become more objective and less subjective in their approach to admissions which would result in less diversity on college campuses. Any attempts they made to promote diversity, of all kinds, would be subject to strict scrutiny. Consequently, there would be fewer African Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, women in math and science related majors, Midwesterners, Southerners, kids who played varsity sports in high school, kids from disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds, etc. </p>

<p>Basically, getting rid of Affirmative Action would limit, if not eliminate, holistic admissions.</p>

674

<p>Sorry, Newjack88, I'm still not following all the steps in your argument. </p>

<p>To be clear, I'm saying that I can envision situations in which admission practices are "holistic," that is that they take into account an applicant's life context and are not strictly "by the numbers" without the admission office practicing "affirmative action," if by that term is meant a preference for students from some group, such as left-handed students or red-haired students or whatever.
If "affirmative action" means targeted RECRUITING efforts, aimed at students with the least family ties to the college, consideration of actual submitted applications for admission could be holistic and yet have no connection to "affirmative action" at all.</p>

675

<p>I'd say my UW was 3.5, however it didn't come from any "joe schmoe" school. It came from one of the most competitive public high schools in NJ, and winner of the Siemens award for math and science (an award only given to one school per state) Furthermore, I took an extremely challenging courseload and many kids with simliar gpa's at my school were admitted to top schools (who, if you didn't guess, are Asian or Jewish). Also, I was awarded the John McMullen Scholarship at Cornell, the most prestigious award to engineering students at Cornell which is based solely on merit (not on race and stuff like that) which underscores the fact that colleges knew that my GPA was stronger than a 3.8 or 3.9 at the average American high school. Again, I'm not trying to get under anyone's skin, but I believe the URM advantage is overestimated on CC.</p>

676

<p>tokenadult:
Holistic admissions and modern day Affirmative Action have the same end result. They both help to increase the representation of under-represented groups. </p>

<p>I already know what system you are talking about but I can guarantee you that groups considered URMs in the current system will still be said to have an "unfair advantage" in the system you are envisioning.</p>

677

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And anyway, if I were to ask all you Anit AA people if you'd expect an African American male to get rejected from top schools with a 2370 SAT, you'd say no.

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<p>I wouldn't say no. I would say I don't have enough information.</p>

<p>For all I know, this black male with 2370 SAT could be the black equivalent of those boring, Asian math grinds - all stats, no passions.</p>

678

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Basically, getting rid of Affirmative Action would limit, if not eliminate, holistic admissions.

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<p>Limit, maybe. Eliminate, no way. UCLA is not allowed to use race-based affirmative action because of Proposition 209, but it still uses holistic admissions.</p>

<p>What makes holistic admissions 'holistic' is subjectivity. Essays, recommendations, extracurriculars, and so forth are all subjective (c.f. stats which are objective.) Does race count as a subjective factor? Most definitely. Is it required? Most definitely not.</p>

679

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I'd say my UW was 3.5, however it didn't come from any "joe schmoe" school. It came from one of the most competitive public high schools in NJ, and winner of the Siemens award for math and science (an award only given to one school per state) Furthermore, I took an extremely challenging courseload and many kids with simliar gpa's at my school were admitted to top schools (who, if you didn't guess, are Asian or Jewish). Also, I was awarded the John McMullen Scholarship at Cornell, the most prestigious award to engineering students at Cornell which is based solely on merit (not on race and stuff like that) which underscores the fact that colleges knew that my GPA was stronger than a 3.8 or 3.9 at the average American high school. Again, I'm not trying to get under anyone's skin, but I believe the URM advantage is overestimated on CC.

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<p>It's hard to know what's going on inside the admission office but D's friend comes from the top 50 high school by US News. He also took a very demanding courseload. However, he is not a science kid like you. The girl that has 2400/4.0 actually has very similar stats to you if not better. She also competed in a lot of science competitions otherwise she would not getting into one of the HYP. I believe she did cancer research, etc.. I also believe your high school is pretty strong(Plainboro, NJ, north or south). I've looked at moving there before and did check out the local school district. But is it on the top 50 US News Ranking?</p>

680

<p>Plainsboro is not the school (though our school could easily be compared to it), its not on the top 50 US News ranking, however it is ranked very near that (I won't reveal so many details so as to keep my location anonymous)</p>