fighting the intellectual hegemony of the privileged in the admissions process

<p>
[quote]
Still, I would not call allocative efficiency a form of "equality". I do believe a free and educated society will produce more equality based on human nature. However, even if it were to produce huge disparities, we would still have to accept that. Thus, equality was not the true aim, but rather justice.

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<p>Ah, but if the allocation were just, what we should see is a sort of normal distribution, because statistically speaking, the least productive and the most productive individuals inherently occur in equal probabilities in society, and most of the income should reside in the middle, not in the rich, deserving as each individual might be, they are simply not as numerous.</p>

<p>The point is to allocate proportionately to contribution (accounting for the fact that eventually it's cheaper to pay someone else for that same ounce of contribution than to keep extracting it from the most capable individual). Ideally, poverty should be residual, like the natural rate of unemployment -- there is a natural inequality in how talent (and therefore contributive ability) is distributed, along the normal distribution curve, that will always be there. There will be occasional inequality on top of this because one entrepreneur will have discovered something before an equally deserving entrepreneur discovers something else, facilitating a sort of advancing race. </p>

<p>But this is not what we see -- in this case we see a distribution heavily skewed towards the rich. Technically, the most capable deserve more, but the most capable also are less numerous compared to the general population. Mathematically speaking (after creating our dear density function which has the exponential function e in it because of the whole idea of dividing the quantification of ability up into infinite parts and allocating each infinitesimal piece based on probability -- yay for probability and calculus!) we should get a normal distribution of income. </p>

<p>But this isn't case because it so happens that those with higher incomes have a greater ability to self-actualise, so the abilities of society increase at a non-constant rate as a sort of differential equation. Technically, the abilities of each poor individual should increase as society's technology and knowledge progresses -- but it's not actualised because he has received no capital that would allow him to realise it.</p>

<p>This forms the theoretical basis for the equivalent of redistribution of income, because those individuals are performing below efficiency. (Of course this redistribution must not occur top-down, but grassroots-up, because the State is mightily inaccurate at knowing how much to reallocate). Eventually there comes a point where even the growth of the top echelons lag because of the ceiling posed by having failed to allocate to the lower class. </p>

<p>The other important element of an economy besides self-interest is the learning economy principle, which I am saddened to find has not been implemented in the AP exams. No one has perfect information (or else we might as well implement a planned economy) and the reason why firms might not even see there is economic profit in subsidising the poor (or by investing in African education, for example) is because they haven't the foresight or the "lesson". </p>

<p>I really dislike how the AP micro exam teaches market failure correction so conveniently -- what it's missing is the learning principle. Externality occurs in production and consumption of X. If X is demand-elastic, impose tax Y to compensate, for the costs will go to the suppliers! But gee, if you knew how much Y to impose, mightn't you as well plan the entire economy???</p>

<p>
[quote]

But all of these things you regard as desirable are means, not an end. Self-interest is not a first principle. Why? Killing would be acceptable if it gave one person a benefit. If killing is good for the person killed, then it must be fine for that murderer to accept violence from any and all other people against their objection.

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<p>I could give you the long answer, but I'm just going to drop a few terms because it's so late at night. Ask if you want me to clarify. :) </p>

<p>Categorical imperative. Social contract. Mutual benefit. Rule of law. </p>

<p>;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your views are the antithesis of the American Dream.

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<p>And that's a bad thing?</p>

<p>The American Dream (tm) is overrated. Give me my spartan pursuits any day.</p>

<p>
[quote]
No, instead it should be everyone working for the betterment of everyone, and equality.</p>

<p>As far as I'm concerned, your left-libertarian views are 100% socialist views, but instead of a government forcing economic equality, you believe people should make economic equality out of the goodness of their hearts. Idealist? Your faith in such a petty dream goes beyond ideal.

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<p>Maybe you didn't read #118 or #121. I'll summarise. </p>

<p>The principles of allocative efficiency demand that you allocate resources to increase the production potential to the underperforming poor, because you know, the marginal benefit / marginal cost ends up being than if you continued pumping money into the same narrow pool of talent, by the very virtue of the law of diminishing returns.</p>

<p>Whenever there is massive poverty or income inequality in a society we are seeing an underoptimal situation because you will have many individuals that are underperforming because of the lack the capital to actualise themselves. The ideal income distribution should not be perfect equality (a straight line as a function of ability [note also the difference between inherent and actualised ability]) but rather by the normal distribution, because of the mathematical laws of how traits and abilities are allocated in a population. </p>

<p>Libertarianism isn't laissez-faire or "hands-free" -- it's the principle that each agent in society should be free to commit to any action they wish as long as they don't infringe on the fundamental liberties of others -- so normally you need social contract principles to enforce this arrangement. And of course, you have a narrower set of choices because many of those choices depend upon support from others.</p>

<p>If you're not against the mathematics of spontaneous order, you can see quite a lot of complex institutions develop from the single idea of each agent working in his own interest -- which is really not surprising in the end, because in the end it's the fact that there are so many agents that cause all the complexity. (Sort of like how you can get beautifully symmetric, yet chaotic, trajectories if you simulate five identical galaxies crashing into each other, operating from the single basic premise of gravity.)</p>

<p>Your pursuits are anything but Spartan. They are completely and utterly socialist. You are not a libertarian. You are an interventionist in every sense of the word. You are not an intellectual, otherwise you might spot your hypocracy.</p>

<p>You speak confidently about those you know nothing about. You claim that you are in a horrible situation, unable to have the $370 to renew your papers, that is $370 of $60,000+, but people that cannot pay $50,000 REPEATEDLY of $100,000 are wasteful beyond belief.</p>

<p>How can the cognitive dissonance of your comments not rip you to shreds.</p>

<p>You are so naive if you think that can work. It's been done before hon, completely unsucessfully. On a small scale it could work, look at the kibbutzes in Israel, but for a country of 300,000,000 people? I sincerely doubt it. Look what happened to the USSR and what is happening to China. But you know what, I hope you have a great time at UVA and hope someone will knock some sense into you before you have to start kissing up to investors for your grand plan. Whatever, I just don't get you, but I'll keep on trying, even if it means shadowing this board. Cuz you know, that's the sort of ignorant, middle class, brat that I am. Oh, and by the way, when you were talking about middle class incomes of $100,000 a year and saying that they would be able to send their kid to college no problema; consider if the family has twins, college expenses would probably be more then 100000 a year. I'm sure living in a smaller house would fix that.</p>

<p>
[quote]
otherwise you might spot your hypocracy.

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[quote]
hypocracy

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<p>:) :) </p>

<p>
[quote]
that is $370 of $60,000+

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<p>Huh? $60,000 was the income my family used to earn thirteen years ago. You know, before we lost our house, suffered divorce, had massive debt because of the lawyers sucking up all our funds just to make sure me and my sister didn't fall into the hands of my abusive father, and so forth. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Your pursuits are anything but Spartan. They are completely and utterly socialist. You are not a libertarian. You are an interventionist in every sense of the word.

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<p>An entrepreneur/philanthropist/et al. is an interventionist, by your logic. I don't get you.</p>

<p>Also, perhaps you weren't aware of a philosophy called "libertarian socialism," which is a philosophy I still identify with, founded by thinkers I especially respect, including Proudhon, Kropotkin ("the anarchist Prince"), et al. </p>

<p>Of course, libertarian socialism wishes to replace the market, and left libertarians realise the excesses or shortfalls of the current system come not so much from the market itself but the culture that surrounds the market.</p>

<p>Again, because of the principles of the learning economy, a highly-organised and educated consumer culture is important, because this works towards remedying the problem of not having perfect information. </p>

<p>It's not interventionist to actively foster a learning culture.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You are so naive if you think that can work. It's been done before hon, completely unsucessfully. On a small scale it could work, look at the kibbutzes in Israel, but for a country of 300,000,000 people? I sincerely doubt it. Look what happened to the USSR and what is happening to China.

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<p>"China" is a cultural entity. The ROC and PRC are political entities within it.</p>

<p>Anyway, I completely do not comprehend you. Are you asserting that the USSR and the PRC have implemented libertarianism before? </p>

<p>Maybe you'd actually like to ... I don't know ... pay closer attention?</p>

<p>The whole point of spontaneous order (the market is one such entity) is that it works on a large scale. You know, invisible hand, etc.</p>

<p>I don't think the problem is really as you describe it. The immigrant experience as you state it seems to be the exact opposite for me. My family are all immigrant, with my parents being the earliest immigrants (coming around 20 years ago from the PRC because my grandfather had a brother who managed to get into the USA almost a century ago). None of my immigrant relatives tell their children they shouldn't go to college or do any ECs; they tell them the exact opposite. Struggle, succeed and do your best to go to the best universities you can get. While I'm a Chinese American, my relatives aren't; they came to the USA less than five years ago and some of the schools they've gotten into are certainly very impressive. Pomona, UC Berkeley, UC San Diego, and UC Irvine to name some.</p>

<p>you know i hate to say it-and i am by no means wealthy either: my mom is a learning differences teacher and my dad is unemployed- but you guys sound just as snobby and arrogant as the "rich kids" your bashing, sitting up your high horses and complimenting your humility and groundedness....no offense intended</p>

<p>IsabelB, I believe by "you guys" you mean Galoisien, it's just he makes 2-3 posts in a row every time to pad his post count. Nobody else is promoting hating the rich or denigrating someone who used to work 70-80 hours a week such as my dad did to provide for his family, and still works upwards of 60. Not to mention his private practice is set up as "pay as you can," where he basically waives fees for those who can't afford it (can run up to $100+).</p>

<p>Funny thing is he never even mentioned this to me, I had to learn about it through his colleagues and by working in his office while the secretary was away. And we'd probably be better off if he opened his private practice up full time too, but he works at a nursing home a few days a week. Not to mention the countless times our family time was delayed by phone calls at all hours of the day and night. Nice guy right, Galoisien? But no, he makes over 100k. Almost half of which is gone after federal, state, and city taxes. Corpulent, materialistic scum of the earth, eh?</p>

<p>And you know what? I'm not ashamed to say that he earned every bit of it, and bought a BMW (before that, drove a used car which we shared with another family, then a car which broke down 3-4 times before we forced him to get another, and then a car which he used for 7 years before passing it down to me). Half my clothes were hand-me-downs from family friends or were the free crap from school events. The rest were always off the discount rack. The only consistently new article of clothing I wore were shoes, and that's because I ran track.</p>

<p>So please, hate me. despise my family, we fit your description to a T! Well off, annual income comfortably over 6 figures, nice house in a nice suburban neighborhood. Ignore the years of slavish work my father put in to get us here, of course, to give us more opportunities to achieve and stand out. Ignore my achievements because obviously I was culturally pushed (by the way, never got help with schoolwork from anyone). Ignore the fact that he's probably done more good than you ever will for ranting on the excesses of the rich. And ignore everything other than our tax return. Do you go around with goggled eyes, judging everyone by their perceived income? "Oh my god Abercrombie at 10 o'clock!! Must be a jerk, dodge right!"</p>

<p>For such a remarkably well-schooled thinker in literature, you don't actually understand their cultural contexts. Sure you understand the abstract philosophy behind many of these great minds, but in so doing you have allowed yourself to caricature an entire group of people that by no means can be caricatured. Is a Warren Buffett the same as a Carlos Slim (rapes the Mexican people with his telecom monopoly)? Is a rave hosted by Lindsay Lohan equal to a fundraiser for cancer research? Both, after all, are rather excessive.</p>

<p>My dad truthfully should indulge more. He's eaten more leftovers in his life than you ever will (guaranteed, as he does so twice a day. Yes, because much of the time he doesn't get back in time for dinner, even though we eat around 9PM normally). Even now he bags lunches. One of his friends took the same brown paper bag to work for over a decade to save money. Think you're poor? McDonalds was luxurious high cuisine to my parents when they immigrated here. That's how poor they were.</p>

<p>He's worked himself out of poverty and into a successful career in as virtuous a way as possible. Tell me how he's lost "touch" with the world, and how he's ignorant. Keep trying. Why doesn't he have the right to enjoy himself? Who are you to willfully deny him excess if he wanted it? There are plenty of well off people that are nothing but kind and empathic. The fact that you don't know any just means you were never willing or brave enough to approach such people because you wrote them off.</p>

<p>galoisien, your spelling is very British English. Just something I've been noticing with all your S's used instead of Z's.</p>

<p>yeah you're pretty much right collectivsynergy : )</p>

<p>"You imagine all these things are going on, but you really have no idea what actually happens."</p>

<p>Right, because the poster is consumed with envy. Let go of what others have and go get what you want. You are crippling yourself. Does your mother know your mindset? I bet it would break her heart to have worked so hard to get you the best education, have you admitted to one of the top schools in the US, but have you stunted by envy. What a shame. As someone posted, UVA is known for its wealthy student body. You could be preparing for a very tough four years for yourself. Perhaps you should spend the summer working on gratitude and appreciation.</p>

<p>thank god for what you have.
get new friends in college, i'm sure there are people just as middle class as you.</p>

<p>You do realize that 100k can be alot for one person and a little for another, right?</p>

<p>For a single guy living in montana or some cheap place to live, that's a pretty good salary.</p>

<p>But what about for the family of 7 living in California. That 100k is gonna come down to about 70k give or take a few thousand. In a family of 7 in any populated areas of california that puts you at the middle of middle class if you are lucky, but in most cases even slightly below cause most people try/want to own a house, drive a car, etc.</p>

<p>100k = not above middle class anywhere near NYC. Taxes chop off 30%+ automatically, and that's not including high COL, property taxes, etc. Here, it truly is middle class. In rural areas it's worth a lot more. It's a disconnect between people who live in expensive areas and inexpensive ones.</p>

<p>"Oh by the way my favorite posters are those who claim one is "jealous" when they raise these issues. "</p>

<p>A lot of what the OP decries (e.g., the "excessive" vacations, the car at 16 yrs. old, getting anything you want, etc.) have no bearing on college admissions. And he does it in pretty strong language calling them "rich, spoiled brats." He also invents some imaginary world where every rich kid has counselors working on their essays and their parents stay home to help them on their homework every night.
It speaks to some deep-seated resentment of the wealthy. That is probably why people think the OP is jealous.</p>

<p>And the characterizing rich kids as "spoiled" because their parents imparted a strong work ethic onto them is extremely bizarre.</p>

<p>I find it funny how everyone is complaining about the wealthy while few on this conference attend a top preparatory school such as Exeter, Andover, Milton or Deerfield or come from a privileged background. Since I do attend one of these schools let me allude you all to some simple facts. Approximately 1/3 to 2/3 of the class receives financial aid to attend the school. The acceptance rate is below 25% to attend these schools in the first place and it is far more rigorous academically then any of you have yet to experience. All the kids at school work extremely hard, the average junior staying up to 1-2 in the morning doing work. All the time participating in Varsity athletics and numerous student organizations . The students that attend these schools are extremely driven and passionate. Sorry to brake it to you, but they are better prepared for the academic rigors of college than you are. A lot of my friends and family attend or have attended HYP always talk about how the naive public school kids who just because they got a 4.0 GPA at Powdunk high school think they are smart and gifted then getting barely by freshman year while all the prep school kids pass with honors. I have friends in my dorm who's families make less than 30,000$ so don't talk about how we are secluded from poverty. I have friends who worked for 10 weeks in Africa over the past summer at an Orphanage in Kenya and tutor underprivileged kids in Boston on the weekends. At my school we have kids who are considered some of the best high school orators, writers and athletes in the country. My school alone has produced 100s of famous alumni. It is interesting how you make all these gross generalizations when you really don't know many wealthy people and are making your conclusions, it appears, from movies and upper middle class suburbanites. And yes their are wealthy kids who just don't do anything, but guess what they don't get in to college. I know kids who's parents have wealth in the 10s of millions and they don' go to top schools because they are just not academically ready or ambitious enough. Half of the college process is ambition, if you are ambitious you can find out about all the numerous opportunities available to people from all socioeconomic backgrounds. For example I worked on the Ron Paul campaign as a volunteer in the fall, I had no connections whatsoever and I was able to get a weekend job working for the campaign. You don't need money, in fact colleges take it in to account that you come from a underprivileged background and lower their requirements for students fitting that mould. I am sorry that you feel the need to whine about all the hardships you've experienced but guess what life isn't fair so suck it up and work hard. Maybe if you cry about it a little more the fairy goddess will come by and make everything beautiful and pretty, just like what the USSR was like.</p>

<p>Swissas, you are my hero. Oh and galo, you do realize that your theory sounds pretty similar to the one drafted by the incredably idealistic and naive students in early 20th century Russia. And well... we all know how that turned out. That's what I meant when I said it's been done before. (Oh and I'm sorry about the mistake with the PRC and China, I wasn't really thinking about it too much cuz this is you know an internet forum, not an academic paper)</p>

<p>I don't know why its so shocking that the rich and successful tend to know how to raise their kids so that they too are rich and successful.</p>

<p>I disagree with the general tone of post 139 and the sentiment that public school kids could not compete with Exeter kids. If a kid goes to a decent public school and is driven and naturally bright, he will be able to compete. Swissas has no point for comparison. I actually did go to a decent (but not famous) public high school and then transferred to a magnet school at the level of Exeter. While the magnet school was better, I would not have had a problem at an ivy school had I stayed.</p>

<p>However, I do think that colleges consider working jobs out of necessity as at least equivalent to treks to Africa and rightfully so. </p>

<p>My main point is that you shouldn't explain away people's accomplishments just because there parents have money.</p>