<p>Mom2collegekids –</p>
<p>I have told divorced people that NCP help must be disclosed and have been told I am an idiot, etc. That how they read FAFSA does not require reporting of that. I told them they are dead wrong, gifts to student, bills paid on his behalf must be disclosed.</p>
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<p>I make far less than half of $250K/year from my job (my wife is a SAHM). We could have easily afforded $50K/year for our kids but they’ve chosen out-of-state publics. We basically lived inexpensively, saved like crazy and found a lot of luck in the stock market.</p>
<p>Perhaps the folks that you talk about only did move into the $250K/year area. Where were they before though? $125K? $150K? You can still do a lot with that kind of money. Or at least we could.</p>
<p>We saved like mad and then I filled out the FAFSA. Our EFC was almost six figures. I’m annoyed that I even bothered filling it out as it meant that I released our financial information to a database and a bunch of strangers that would now look at us as a marketing target.</p>
<p>It may feel like spending all that you have to look poor will get you more FA brownie points but there is a lot to be said for having the peace of mind and telling your kids - you can go anywhere you get accepted to. It may have been tough living on the cheap for all of those years but one of the keys to wealth is to delay gratification.</p>
<p>The FA system is a wealth transfer approach - the full-pay customers subsidize those that need FA. Yes, endowments, alumni donations, etc. do fund FA but you colleges still need full-pay customers in the mix.</p>
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<p>I agree. I have read many times on cc that it is sold as, “Everyone is getting a discount”, because the sticker price is much lower than the actual cost of educating each student! Really?</p>
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<p>I know how you feel; but parents that grew up in circumstances like yours want to ensure that their kids have a better environment in growing up.</p>
<p>The marketplace for educated labor is worldwide and we are today competing against the whole world for jobs so parents want to give their kids the best chance at competing in the future. It may sound like so much to you but my wife grew up in a third-world country with only one parent and poor in a third-world country is quite a bit different from being poor in the US. You can imagine her propensity to save.</p>
<p>Yes, I wish that I had had better parents too but I couldn’t and can’t do anything about that.</p>
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<p>It may be true at some schools with superb finances but I think that even those schools require a lot of full-pay students to keep their numbers looking good.</p>
<p>Our state university system budget is going to lose between 5% and 45% of it’s state funding next fiscal year. The governor has proposed a 5% cut. The legislature has proposed a 45% cut. So we’ll wind up with something in-between. States do kick in money but I’d need to see a detailed accounting to believe that everyone is getting a discount. Especially when state u’s are dumping grounds for political hacks padding their pensions.</p>
<p>The above is where I draw the line. As far as I’m concerned, the college can spend its/federal money on whoever it wants, but I’m not interested in my full-pay going to subsidization of others’ tuition. </p>
<p>And yes, I know that it doesn’t go that way at the ivies. But don’t tell me this isn’t happening at the vast swath of LAC’s in the high/low third tier.</p>
<p>I don’t even bother with the FAFSA anymore after the first one told me our EFC would be $75000 a year! Yes, we have a good income, but no way could we pay $50000 out of pocket every year for a private college without depleting our retirement nest egg. Our 529 had tanked during the stock market drop of 2009, (fortunately it has come back)- nevertheless, it couldn’t cover 4 years of private education even though I started it when D was a baby! Luckily for all of us, the best place she got into was the state flagship near our home, so we save both on tuition and travel costs. She couldn’t be happier, and we can pay this out of pocket, maybe even having some of the 529 left over for grad school.</p>
<p>I never had any expectation of qualifying much financial aid, merit or need. Like all kids at Lake Wobegon and on CC, mine is above average, stellar in some areas but not an athlete. But no privates/out of state offered us much more than $10000 a year. </p>
<p>One thing I do know, I wasn’t going to have her take out any student loans for an undergraduate degree. I can’t see any scenario where that is a good idea.</p>
<p>^^an acquaintance suggested that since her full pay tuition payment was subsidizing other students, she should be able to pick her daughter’s classmates. 
:(</p>
<p>This issue comes up every year on CC. That </p>
<ol>
<li>full pay subsidizes everyone else.</li>
<li>FA ‘rewards’ the profligate family and punishes the savers.</li>
<li>Expensive private colleges have basically very poor students (who get very, very good aid) or very wealthy students (typically seen as comig from families with over 200K in income). The so-called middle class (families with around 150K) have been ‘priced out’, and so are quite rare at these institutions.</li>
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<p>And yet, there is very, very little hard evidence given to back up these claims.</p>
<p>In reality, when it comes to financial aid, and especially need-based aid, except for a range of schools with huge endowments and that are highly ranked, there’s isn’t that much to go around.</p>
<p>Take, for example, Wake Forest. A great private school–ranked #25 in US News–and yet here is the ‘net price’ data from IPEDS:</p>
<p>Income Average net price
$0 – $30,000 $22,459
$30,001 – $48,000 $26,076
$48,001 – $75,000 $27,832
$75,001 – $110,000 $32,256
$110,001 and more $35,162 </p>
<p>Sure, there are places that might give better aid than this. But as I looked on IPEDS, there are many, many colleges that look more like Wake Forest in terms of aid than Harvard.</p>
<p>It doesn’t seem as though the low income families are really being advantaged that much.</p>
<p>“It may be true at some schools with superb finances but I think that even those schools require a lot of full-pay students to keep their numbers looking good.”</p>
<p>When I went to Ithaca College with a very generous scholarship, it was partly because the school NEEDED me and other lower middle class students with great grades to bring up the performance level average and lower the drop-out/fail-out rate, off-setting a whole bunch of kids that were partying their way through school and discussing their stock portfolios during breaks, like the full-pay girl in my dorm that offered to pay me to put her sheets on her bed because she didn’t know how (I offered to teach her for free; she found someone else to take the money and do her laundry every week). </p>
<p>I went to IC because SUNY Binghamton cost too much. Would’ve fit in better there, would probably have been happier and gotten a better education there, but I made the decision to go to IC because it was what I could afford. My daughters have done the same: less intellectual one went to a state school and the 149IQ one found it much cheaper to go to a lower tier private that offered much aid, figuring once she does her residencies and passes the licensing exam, the name of the school won’t matter so much.</p>
<p>Most upper-middle class and wealthy people, like many on cc have never had to struggle with money until you come up against college expenses (I’m sorry, but putting money away to save for college is a “sacrafice” I’d love to be able to make). Someone was saying they’d lost equity in their $350K house - in my neighborhood, houses are valued at well under $100K. WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD!! Yes, you want to send your kids to top schools. I’d like to do a lot of things, too, but we poorer people have learned to accept our limitations.</p>
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<p>I think that the main issue in this thread is need-based aid as opposed to merit aid.</p>
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<p>I would disagree with this statement.</p>
<p>Homes for the upper-middle and wealthy can run well north of college expenses for a few kids.</p>
<p>Many also pay private school tuitions that can run well over $25K/year.</p>
<p>“Hardly anyone expects you to pay college tuition out of current income. I doubt anyone could except those who make 7 figures per year. You are supposed to pay it out of savings and investments. If you don’t qualify for FA, that means you have the income to have saved and invested through the years so you can pay for college tuition. Unless you are making a big income just recently.”</p>
<p>This describes our family–for two different kids. Kid 1 went to an Ivy (fall 97 - spr 01), Mom & Dad paid EFC out of monthly paycheck, paid them an average of 1k/mo for 48 months. There were 2 other children at home, one in Cath h.s. & the other at Cath. grammar. Our not-large savings were all in IRAS & 401ks, meaning not accessible for years without penalty. And we were paying a mortgage at the time, and we did have equity in the house but they did not ask us to hit it. We had no consumer debt (car loans–knew enough to clear those out of the way & drive what became beaters). We did not contribute to retirement accounts during those 4 years.</p>
<p>Forward to today. Kid 3 is in 12th grade–no more dependents at home, we just finished paying off the mortgage (which we did, btw, by sending in large monthly additional principal $$ during the years between 2001- now). Most savings are still in retirement accounts (which alas did shrink). And the big difference, besides the reduced number of dependents needing educations, and the paid off mortgage, is the income has gone up.</p>
<p>We still are going to be paying our EFC from the paycheck. We’ll be paying the amount we had been for the mortgage until recently, plus that 1k/month as before. Kid 3 will be taking Stafford loans, and she also has a merit scholarship at one school if she chooses that one. </p>
<p>So, in response to OP–FA is for those who <em>need</em> it. Our need was greater in 1997 than it is today. Schools cost more today, so D still has some need – those loans meet it. </p>
<p>While it would be nice to be getting the same size scholarships today as we once did, the downside of that is that when the 4 years are up, if your income is such that your child receives that level of aid, your income is way lower than if you did not need the aid. </p>
<p>We are going to have a very tight 4 years–but when they are done, assuming good health, keeping of the job & all that, we will have a bigger paycheck than if we had been eligible for all that aid. i like it better this way. And I am more than willing to bless families who need greater aid, as we once did. </p>
<p>When my D 1 was in college, George Harrison’s son was her classmate–not that she ever met him. George paid full ride—we did not. I am very grateful to him. He could afford it. We could not. Thank you George, and all your $$$ peers!</p>
<p>Why are you upset that some kids have grandparents or uncles, aunts, cousins that are willing to pay for their college? How is that less fair than those who have parents who can and will? Relatives outside of the immediate family are not on the hook for college costs, so it is entirely up to them if they want to pay. </p>
<p>If your family is eligible for financial aid, and grandmom offers to pay, the way to do it is for the payments to be in a form of a loan so that they do not have to be reported and aid be lowered the following year. At graduation, the loans can be forgiven. If you’re lucky enough to have a relative who is willing and able to do this, lucky you. I am envious. But not resentful.</p>
<p>I guess I don’t really understand the anger here. No one is entitled to a college education. This is not an equal playing ground and we all know it, or should know it. Almost every kid in the country can get a college education. Not every kid is going to get into a selective college either due to their grades/SATs/ECs or because they can’t afford it. There are too many variables in the whole process to determine why one kid got in with money and another didn’t. Maybe a school was looking for XYZ and your kid was XYA. The point is to understand the reality of the situation and then make the best plays you can to optomize your chances. </p>
<p>Celebrate the sucess of others! You never really know their story. Be happy if someone has a grandparent that can help them achieve their dream. It’s a good thing. Celebrate your own abilities too. We are very happy that we can be full pay at our state schools. Our kids can choose no debt. Can we afford 54K for 4 years for 3 kids? No. It’s really ok. They will all have a wonderful life. They will do well. I really don’t understand the negativity towards others.</p>
<p>“One thing I do know, I wasn’t going to have her take out any student loans for an undergraduate degree. I can’t see any scenario where that is a good idea.”</p>
<p>You would if it was the only way the kid was going to get that 5-6 k/year!</p>
<p>I think kids should have some skin in the game. I had student loans, my husband did for grad school, and our oldest D did. Our youngest will, too. </p>
<p>Oldest D got a good job upon graduation from her MS and paid them off very quickly, by adding principal to each payment. </p>
<p>Mine took longer to pay off, because I did not start with as highly paying a job, so I had to do my $200/month gig for a while. But I got an education out of it. </p>
<p>I want my D to think twice before spending on something foolish when she is in school – I want her to remember she will be paying it back over a period of years, with interest. Her loan will be paying for part of the room charge, or the food bill. We will pay the tuition. She will buy her books; she will pay for all entertainment.</p>
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<p>I am not resentful of this at all. I am resentful of those who have that money available AND do the “it is a loan” thing, where after graduation it becomes a “forgiven loan” (ie: gift) because it is taking money out of the FA money available to those who don’t have these gifts, and yet have unmet financial need.</p>
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<p>Would you feel better if the student took out loans and the grandparents paid them off? It’s really the same thing outside of a little interest.</p>
<p>Actually, yes, because the grandparent was hanging onto their money and might have needed it for their own bills. If they decided to pay off student loans later either while alive, or if they died and the student inherited the money, this money was not the student’s and the student did not have any access to it until sometime AFTER graduation.</p>
<p>In an example that I am aware of, there is a family with 4 children. 3 are in college at the same time. All have substantial FA awards. This may sound like nickel and diming, but an uncle pays airfares, and cell phone bills for this family. I do not know if he contributes to the EFC or not. Assuming he does not, just the airfare, and cell phone bill payments are more than other families with need are gifted. Is this fair if it is not disclosed as available funds, while they accept FA grants? BTW, I have no idea as to how they complete their FA forms so it is just a question.</p>
<p>So? Some have parents that can afford to buy them luxury cars. Life is not fair. The rules are pretty clear but there are loopholes. You don’t have to declare non cash gifts. You don’t have to declare loans and if you are lucky enough to have friends/family who will lend you the money, then fine. There are risks to every such endeavor, some very much worth it, but lucky are those who have those benefits. Lucky are the parents who have the amazingly talented kids who win full ride awards to name schools. Lucky are the low income parents whose kids are so talented they get into top schools with full rides. Not so lucky are we who have to pay for our kids cuz no one else wants to do so. But lucky are those kids that they have us to pay. </p>
<p>It’s not nickel and diming that the uncle pays airfares, cell phone bills and probably gives a lot of other generous gifts too. But that is the lucky thing that family has. And even luckier that it doesn’t have to be reported on the fin aid forms if done properly. It’s a loop hole. Lucky are they who fall into one of them. It’s not fair that someone has a grandparent who pays everything either or a parent, or has a parent who has the money but won’t pay. No one says the process is fair.</p>
<p>My friend’s husband was a well to do surgeon. His kids got PELL and other fin aid because they divorced and he was a non custodial parent. Refused to pay for school or anything so they had to go to FAFSA only schools that gave them some monies. He lent them every cent he gave to them, and he gave generously those 4 years of his kids college and then forgave the loans as a graduation gift. Not fair but within the rules. He found a way to get the money from the system. Not fair that some poor kid who has scraped and saved along with family to have a college account of maybe $10K but they didn’t know how student’s assets get hit , so when he gets accepted to UChicago, they want every bit of it over 4 years whereas his better prepared counterpart makes sure that his savings is a big fat zero. Not fair that the kids with the most options often are the ones who get accepted to schools like Harvard and get the most generous financial aid. Not fair if you live in a state where the state school costs are up in the stratosphere with little or no aid available while there are those in states like GA or FL where the state scholarships can pay the full state tuition for good students. </p>
<p>If you are lucky enough to have the benefits where you can get a loophole, you do get more than someone who is unlucky to hit things the wrong way. It’s just the way it works. No different for anything else in life.</p>