<p>-I'm somewhat comfortable taking calculated risks, but then again I've never taken on risk of such magnitude.
-I have healthy self-confidence (I adjust and interact well).
-I tend to coexist with uncertainty without too much discomfort--right now I'm confident that I'll end up with a good education regardless of which school I choose (I don't get anxious easily).
-Considering that I enjoy every subject aside from engineering, my options have always been open. But for a few years now I've been interested in the United Nations, public health/policy analysis, and to a lesser degree financial analysis. Ultimately I aim to become a professor (far along the road), but after college I suspect that I'll either have to work to pay off undergrad loans before grad school (master's or doctorate) or vice versa if possible.</p>
<p>If you were my son, I would say take the free ride. It's what you bring to your college experience that counts most. Graduating debt free would give you a wonderful start in life...to attend graduate school if you choose, to buy a home, to save and invest, to later marry and start a family. Huge debt after graduation would limit your options for years to come.</p>
<p>We threw out my son's preferred school initially because the early finaid discussions weren't going well. Finally, a miracle occurred and a solid finaid package was offered that made it competitive with the other schools my son was accepted to...and the choice was made. No school, in a well-selected set of schools, is worth going into overwhelming debt over. You may think so now...but later?</p>
<p>Do yourself a favor: don't strap yourself or your family. You will get a perfectly fine education at a free ride school. Don't fool yourself into thinking that something with a higher price tag is better...it's just more expensive.</p>
<p>Well, with a $120K loan, you may reach retirement age before you can afford grad school. Especially if somewhere along the line you decide to marry and raise a family. </p>
<p>Go to Brandeis, do well, and then apply to Chicago for grad school. That is a win-win situation -- the colleges where you get your graduate level degrees are much more important in the long run, and Brandeis is a reputable and well-respected university that is a good foundation for the future. In other words, if you have a strong academic record at Brandeis and you do well on the GRE, you are going to be able to get into prestigious graduate programs when you are ready. </p>
<p>The $120K for Chicago is not a "calculated" risk -- it is a stupid risk. I wouldn't even call it it a "risk" -- rather, it is a certainty that you will be saddled by an untenable level of debt for a young person. </p>
<p>Let me put it another way: I am willing as a parent to take on up to about $50K of debt to put my kids through college, if I have to. But the way I reconcile this is that I have a net worth, including home equity & retirement funds, that is far in excess of $50K. So in the end, the worst case scenario for me is that I might have to liquidate or sell an asset in order to pay off the loans. So I am borrowing -- but I am NOT taking on much of a "risk" because at no time will my finances be such that I can't bail myself out. </p>
<p>What would you do with $120K debt if life doesn't go the way you've planned?</p>
<p>ok, is a 120k loan a serious consideration at all?? wouldnt you end up paying like 30k just in finance/interest charges.. I personally hated UChicago (with a passion) when i visited and then later turned down my dream school b/c i would have to take out a 30k loan so i might be a little biased but i dont think UC is that much above case or brandeis academically and definitely not enough to turn down full rides</p>
<p>I am still with those who are skeptical about a very large loan, especially given your strong personal and educational reasons to go to Brandeis.</p>
<p>Actually, the total interest on $120K (assuming 8.5% fixed, paid off over 10 years) would be $58,539.27. And that's without adding in the cost of loan origination fees.</p>
<p>You would actually allow your parents to borrow that kind of money? What are you thinking? Just when they can and should be saving for their retirement? </p>
<p>I'm stunned at the lack of perspective about such a large debt. Take the full ride--Brandeis has an excellent reputation. The delta is just not worth the kind of burden on your parents that you are suggesting.</p>
<p>120K of debt for an undergraduate degree is sheer insanity.I can't imagine anybody even considering such a course of action.Go to Brandeis and take a small portion of that 120k and take a year off after you graduate and tour Europe.Then take another part of that 120k and go to a good grad school.</p>
<p>A friend went to Syracuse in econ, earned a MS in Operations Research at Case and then went to U Chic for his MBA. His parents paid for all of it. He's a great guy- handsome, personable, and smart. However, his expensive education never equated to huge earnings. He is nearly 50 now and is a phamaceutical rep for a big drug company making decent money, but not a fortune. IMO his best decision was to marry an art major from a state uni who graduated debt free and became his boss making loads more than he did. I would not take out huge loans to pay for an education assuming that you'll be able to pay it back from a high-paying job that will be thrown your way. 120K is like a mortgage that people typically take 15-30 years to pay off. Likely before you have your loans paid, you will have a mortgage, kids of your own to support, a retirement plan that needs funding, and aging parents/ in-laws who might need help.</p>
<p>I cannot understand where the $120K figure comes from. I am looking at the U of Chicago Prospectus, inside back cover, the cost for one year, including all fees, is $43,570. If you say you recieved no aid, then I am assuming you are going to pay for this with loans, either the misely Stafford for yourself and the rest through loans by your parents. Unless my calculator is on the fritz, that is a total of $174,280 for four years. Even if you deducted out all of the misc. expenses and fees, it is still $40K per year, or $160,000. Why would you want this amount of debt?</p>
<p>Sorry, but this is an easy one. If your goal is to eventually become a professor, you should go to Brandeis or Case for free, then go to UChicago for graduate school, at which point the cost to you will be less because you can offset tuition by being a teaching assistant. You will still get to experience UofC, which is a dear favorite of mine even though my S had to turn it down, in part, due to cost last year. You also will be financially free to take a low-paying but highly satisfying job directly after undergrad work, if you choose. You are too young to really know about this but: loans/debt seem to offer the freedom to pursue dreams, yet often times they turn out to be huge burdens that ultimately limit your freedom. </p>
<p>College is what YOU make of it, and you can choose to make four years at Case or Brandeis extremely gratifying and personally valuable. You can seek out great-books like courses, small Socratic-method seminars or just read the great books yourself. You will have the free time to do this and you will not feel the pressure to love every single second of college because "my parents are mortgaging their home or future retirement or whatever."</p>
<p>I'll say you should go for Wellesley. Much less debt. GREAT name. You'll love Boston.</p>
<p>Brandeis' campus is depressing. Recommend avoiding.</p>
<p>You may want to read the book: "Shakespeare, Einstein, and the Bottom Line; The Marketing of Higher Education," by David L. Kirp (Harvard University Press), before you start writing checks to U of Chicago. Tee auther uses UC as an example of a school that transformed itself over the past years to upgrade its prestige, and in doing so, needed and still needs, lots of money. Also, in the November 2005 The Atlantic magazine has a similar article, "The Best Class Money can Buy," on the "enrollment managers" controlling key aspects of the admissions and financial aid departments and what that means for gifted middle income students. I experienced one of the dog-and-pony shows by these enrollment managers at my alma mater, Washington U in St. Louis, when we took our D around last year, it made me sick. The managers know nothing about education, and less about the university they are trying to sell. When I asked if Wash U participated in the NSSE(National Survey of Student Engagement)study, they had no idea, or pretended not to know, what it is. They are selling a brand name, not education. Other schools listed in the article are "USC, Carnegie Mellon, Tulane, Wash. U, NYU, Syracuse, Boston College and Boston University." All of these schools, from what I read here on CC, are less than generous with aid. Buyer beware. (The book and The Atlantic magazine should be available in your local library.)</p>
<p>momof2inca: My son has same dilema as your S did last year. Now that he is rejected U Chicago, what school did he pick. And more importanantly does he have 2nd thoouhgts. It i svery important to me know this. I would appreciaet the feedback.</p>
<p>raising..</p>
<p>USC and Tulane are quite generous with aid for top scores. Indeed, a high psat score earns a $15k discount at USC regardless of need. That's how they have moved up in the rankings -- by buying high stat kids. CMU even advertises that they will likely match other schools offers.</p>
<p>B. and go to NYC on odd weekends, Chicago on even weekends, and on the 5th weekend go to DC. In the mean time read the Federal Reserve Bulletin, sometimes they have some interesting statistics and comments on ethics.</p>
<p>There is a demarcation between using debt and debt using you. Sometimes that line is fuzzy and sometimes it gets real clear.</p>
<p>HIYOUALL: My son is a first-year student at Berkeley, our flagship state school. He has not a single regret. I just wired him $80 to spend on food at the Democratic State Convention in Sacramento this weekend (he's a political science major and passionate about politics), and I swear I thought to myself for the 50th time this year, thank goodness we aren't paying $44,000 a year, we can afford to do these extras. And, man, he has done a lot of extras that we didn't initially factor into college costs! Every time I send off more money for a conference or convention or dues for this or that or trip to here and there, I silently thank Mini for his advice, similar to what he gave earlier in this thread. If we were paying UChicago (or other private school with no merit or financial aid) tuition, we would be going into more debt or have to say no and feel guilty.</p>
<p>You asked if he had regrets. No. Here's a link from yesterday from the Berkeley forum that discusses a kid choosing between Cal and Chicago. Look at my post #12.
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=181656&page=1%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=181656&page=1</a></p>
<p>And if you are interested in a lengthy discussion from last year wherein I asked other parents to help us decide between Chicago and Berkeley, you can check out this link. I reread it for the first time yesterday and it is amazing how things have all worked out for the best.
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=48993&page=1&pp=15%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=48993&page=1&pp=15</a></p>
<p>I have nothing against Chicago, and if they'd given him merit aid or if we had qualified for need-based aid, he might just be there now. It's a wonderful school, but so is the place he chose, and so are the choices of the OP's.</p>
<p>What school's are you considering (or your S or D)?</p>
<p>momof2inca: Thank you for taking time, I TRULY appreciate it. My son is debating between U of Chicago and U of Michgan Ann Arbor's Honors Program (we live in Ohio). I read the link you provided. Most of the feelings are same (impression of campus visit etc.). If I need to, I can pay for Chicago, but the important thing my wife and I realize is that if our S goes to Chicago, he will develop more of "geekyness". We think he needs to grow more in "personal development" while maintainin he academic depth (or geekiness). He is comes from a big public school, so the size does not bother him (we were very concerned by distraction in a big school like Michigan). In Mich he will have better probability for "personal growth". And the Hoors prog will help him maintain "academic depth". What makes it difficult is that he loved Chicago from the time he learned about their "uniqueness" and academic depth. But campus visits, he had simialr take-away as you and your son had. So he is torn. In fact last night he mentioned that Mich is a better choice. But 2 hrs later, he was wondering. Did this happen to your son, and what did you do post his acceptance and till he had spent few months in Berkley (it may have very tough time).. Once again THANKS</p>
<p>HIYOUALL --
I think our son was less torn than I was about the two schools, and on top of that, money was a definite factor for us. He would have been expected to take out some loans to partially fund UChicago, then take more to fund law or grad school. He honestly felt like the two schools were equal in his mind, so he had no qualms at all about taking the less expensive path, but then his perosonality is such that he does not often second-guess his decisions or agonize about them in any way. (Unlike his mom, :))</p>
<p>That said, I think you have stated something true about a difference between Chicago and a school like UMich or Cal. Our son has definitely been exposed to a wide range of opportunities and has had much personal growth this year. Part of that, as I said, is because we have the money to spend on such extras and so we've encouraged them. But part of it is that a big public school is a mini-universe, incredibly diverse and expansive enough to support all kinds of interests, activities, etc... There are just so many opportunities to pursue. And there is generally a critical mass of like-minded, intelligent students that it becomes very exciting to join together and do this or that. </p>
<p>Of course, I think there are areas where Cal pales before Chicago. Class-size, for one. Personal attention from instructors. Rigorous core classes. Counseling services. A majority of highly intellectual peers who love to learn and are there to learn above all else. If my son's career goals were to become an academic, I think Chicago would have won out. (What are your son's career goals, if he knows yet?) Also, if he was shy by nature, I think Chicago might have been a better fit. (How assertive is your son?) Chicago seems more sheltering, to me, like a gorgeous, top-rate library, ethereal, hushed, intensely intellectually challenging. Berkeley seems more like Grand Central Station, noisy, grounded in reality, with trains leaving every few minutes to go wherever you want to go. But it's up to you to go somewhere and not just wait around or watch everyone else.</p>
<p>Whatever you do, since finances aren't an issue, let it be your son's decision and just be supportive. I had a very hard time letting go of the ideals of Chicago. I remember cleaning out the college files over the summer and re-reading the Chicago materials and really agonizing that S would not be there in the fall. But I said nothing to him, just sucked it up and hoped for the best. Even drop-off day was hard (not just saying goodbye, but still wondering if he'd made a bad decision). But seriously, he loves, loves, loves it and I don't think he has thought about Chicago or Harvard or Yale for one minute and if someone said we will send you to any of those three schools for the next three years, I'm positive he'd say "no way." Last night when he called from Sacramento to say thanks for the wire transfer, he was gushing about the gubernatorial election process, about a photo he'd snagged with one of the candidates, about stuffing envelopes and working a hospitality center and the toga party they'd be attending later that night (the candidate is part Greek), and I could barely hear him because there were six guys in the hotel room, and they'd be sleeping on the floor, and they'd missed the train but it was okay because they caught the next one and arrived just in time to hear the keynote speech and there was this girl he'd been seeing and she'd come, too... and... and.. and...</p>
<p>And that kind of conversation is worth, well, I guess I don't know what it's worth. Priceless maybe?</p>
<p>HIYOUALL, we cross posted, see my response above this one.</p>