Finding an intellectual college for a clueless 17-year-old

Student Lounge International Students
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For us it wasn’t that Swarthmore students were excessively competitive (no more than at similar places) but it was that the whole presentation was about how it was the opposite of competitive, saying things like “no one worries about their grades.” We didn’t feel that was true (and a friend’s daughter who attends also told us that it was competitive but they pretended it wasn’t), so we reacted badly to what felt like them trying to mislead us, even though we loved the setting and the class my son sat in on.

In contrast, at Chicago and W&M (and even Brown, which has some of the same vibe with the open curriculum and pass/fail courses and I think should definitely be on your list) they were pretty honest you had to work hard and people cared about that.

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Thanks @Santorini. Is it easy to get to Minneapolis from Northfield, especially without how car? How long does it take using public transport? Do students go there often?

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One factor that might be important for you is that some schools have different semester systems. Do you want a school year with two semesters of 15 weeks each and 5 classes a semester, or 3 ten week semesters with fewer classes, or is that irrelevant to you?

@robotrainbow has a good point about Houston being nicer than CT in February, but in August, hands down CT is better. The point is you have some big differences in climate, and should think about whether extreme heat or cold will bother you. MN is very cold.

Others have mentioned it, but Dartmouth should definitely come off your list because of Greek life and it’s rural. I also don’t see you at Penn because of its pre-professional and “social-Ivy” bent.

I personally love Barnard. It has a weird relationship with Columbia in that it is its own separate college for admission and administrative matters, but according to one of the Barnard tours we went on, your degree will say “Barnard College at Columbia University” and when you register for classes you look at all the offerings of both colleges and pick whatever classes you want/need, so classes are fully integrated as are sports teams. Barnard is directly across the street from Columbia and in a great part of NYC. Barnard does not have the common core requirements that Columbia has.

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@OutOfKantrol FWIW, Wesleyan is completely secular, in case you were wondering. :slight_smile:

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There are two buses per day from Northfield to downtown Minneapolis; one or two more go only to the airport and the Mall of America. http://northfieldlines.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Metro-Express-Brochure-FINAL-8-1-17.pdf

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I think you have a solid list. It’s good that you’re open to women’s colleges as these will give you the most realistic chance of admissions.

It’s hard to find reliable statistics on international admissions. Some schools include Canadians in their international figures; some do not. Same with undocumented immigrants.

I found Wellesley’s international data the most transparent. Over several years they enrolled 7 to 10 students per year from the UK. We don’t know how many applied, how many were admitted or what their ethnicity was.
https://www.wellesley.edu/sites/default/files/assets/departments/slater/files/informational/general/international_student_stats_spring_2017.pdf

I don’t know the percentage for internationals at Columbia or Yale. MIT, which is in a similar though more STEM oriented milieu, admits under 4% of its international applicants. So go ahead and apply to the super selectives, but don’t fall in love until you get your acceptances.

Are you going to be able to visit either before or after you get your acceptances? I would urge you to keep an open mind on rural colleges, at least until you know what your choices are. Colleges like Carleton, Grinnell, Williams, Middlebury don’t attract as many high achieving internationals as those near urban centers, so it makes sense strategically to keep your options open. (Since you mention Art History, Williams has one of the top programs in the country.)

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Do students go to Minneapolis often from Carleton? I would say no. Although easily accessible & home to the Mall of Americas (the largest shopping center in the US I believe) I would not say that Carleton kids travel to the city often. There is just to much to do on campus both in terms of social activities & academics. Carleton is on a trimester system which means 3 classes for 10 weeks. Good news…more opportunities to take more classes then a semester system & if you don’t particularly like a class, at least it is over in 10 weeks. Bad news? The weeks go fast and you are learning a semester worth of material in 10 weeks instead of 15.

My S is on an academic team and travels off campus several weekends for competitions. He enjoys the time away and the bonds he has made with his team. However, he is always glad when he has a weekend to just stay on campus, hang with his floormates and friends, attend parties & other events, as well as make sure he has all is class work up to speed. Carleton is best for someone who really likes learning for the sake of learning. The environment is collaborative and there are many resources available to help students succeed (you and your professor will be on a first name basis & most likely you will have shared a meal at their house or in the dining hall) but the rigor of the class work is real.

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Checkout Macalester and Wesleyan. The students might be the tribe you’re looking for. Academics are excellent.

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You should also check out the book The Hidden Ivies, which has in-depth profiles of institutions that would fit what you’re looking for. https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Ivies-3rd-Americas-Universities/dp/0062420909

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S1 just finished going through some of these schools(except the Ivies) on your list. Hopefully this might help a bit;

-Carleton is GREAT. Good food, unpretentious, very smart people with a quirky sense of humour. It is, however, somewhat out in the country. It is right in a pleasant but basically uninteresting smallish city(they say 20,000, but feels smaller). Also, you say that you are used to cold weather and long winters, but be aware that Minnesota’s winters are colder than many Canadian locales such as Toronto. St.Olaf(3,000) is in town, also, so there are a fair amount of students.

  • Macalester. Right in a benign part of the city. Easy to get anywhere from there, including the airport. Just about everything you want, though it is about a half notch below Carleton/Swarthmore in terms of intellectual heft. Still a good school, but...
  • Swarthmore. U of CHI's little brother. Very rigorous. S1 loved Carleton, but as a thoughtful centrist was put off by some of the extreme, and to him, nonsensical political views of a loud minority in the campus. Not for him. Also a bit small
  • U of CHI. Seems perfect for you, actually. About as intellectual as it gets. Tough to get into, but go for it! When it all gets too intense, then go into CHI proper (about 15-20 min away by transit) and pig out on deep dish or got to Wrigley Field...i know you're not into sports but you've got to do it. CHI is a loud, brash city with tons to do. Great museums galleries, and traditions.

-All the Ivies, except Maybe Cornell. Dartmouth is in a small town, but it’s pretty charming.

  • Middlebury....don't get there if you don't want to be in the country. Carleton is the same distance to St.Paul/MPLS as Middlebury is to the MUCH smaller Burlington. Dartmouth is a good 1 1/2hrs. away. Very pretty, but it is out in the country!
  • Amherst...great school, right besides the much larger UMASS. NIce town, I guess. Family members taught and lived there and said it was the most politically correct town in America. Somewhat close To Boston...75- 90 mins drive?
  • Have you thought about McGill? Won't be the quintessential American school, obviously, and it's bigger than you want, but the campus is right in the middle of an interesting city. Don't be fooled by their somewhat easier entrance standards, it can get as rigorous as you want, especially if you do an honours major. The grading is pretty harsh there, and teachers won't wring their hands about flunking you.
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Here is some more international data:

Swarthmore- https://www.swarthmore.edu/sites/default/files/assets/documents/institutional-research/geogcountries.pdf 9 students from the U.K

Pomona- https://www.pomona.edu/sites/default/files/international-student-guide.pdf (pg 11) 18 students from the U.K. Actually, the map is from last year- it doesn’t include the Class of 2021 (it’s 2017-2020).

Carleton (2 years ago, most recent source available)- https://apps.carleton.edu/campus/ira/assets/Carleton_Facts_2015_16.pdf (pg 8) 2 students from the U.K.

Reed- https://www.reed.edu/ir/geographic.html 1 student from the U.K.

These are for enrolled students across all four years.

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Based on your posts listing schools you’re currently into and researching:

Reaches:
UChicago
Columbia
Pomona
Princeton
Swat
Yale

Of these, the strongest mix of “urban” and “intellectual” are UChicago, Columbia, and Swat. Princeton is probably a bit more intellectual than Yale – a senior thesis is required – but Yale is more urban. Pomona is in a small town an hour from LA.

Low Reaches:
Barnard (could be a high match…)
Carleton
Haverford
Smith
Vassar
Wellesley

All of these are LACs, so there will be a fair bit of intellectualism on each campus. The most intellectual of them is probably Carleton, but it (with Wellesley) is probably also in the most rural/small-town environment. But it is half an hour from the Twin Cities, and Wellesley is not too far from Boston. It just seems like it.

High matches:
Bryn Mawr
Reed
Scripps
W&M

Scripps = Pomona in terms of ruralness and is probably about even in intellectual vibe. Reed is very intellectual but also … well, it’s Reed. Big party atmosphere, lots of dope, a bit of a hippie vibe. William & Mary is a LAC/U hybrid in my eyes. I would not call it urban.

Note, of course, that selectivity differences among these schools does not necessarily indicate differences in academic quality.

If you put your all into all those apps I’m pretty sure you’d be accepted by at least one of them. But I think if you are dead set on studying in the US, you should definitely add a safety.

For intellectual safeties, i think your best bet is going to be a LAC, just one ranked lower – maybe #65 or lower on the US News national LAC ranking. Some are in small cities or close to big ones. Ideas include Lawrence, Beloit, Kalamazoo – these would be low matches, but fairly close to “safe” for you, probably.

To me, you can begin to consider a school a safety if its acceptance rate is 50% or higher and your GPA and test scores are at or above the 75th percentile of last year’s admits (check the common data set of each school).

Overall, I think the best fits for you based on environmental and academic preferences are:

UChicago
Swarthmore
Columbia
Barnard
Vassar
Haverford
Bryn Mawr
Reed

…and Carleton & Wellesley, if 30 minutes from the city is close enough. Add Pomona and Scripps if an hour is close enough.

Reed is weird (to me), but you would write a ton of papers there (or so i’ve heard). Columbia and Chicago have their cores – Columbia’s is probably a bit more rigid – but both are urban and intellectual. Barnard is across the street from Columbia and kart of it. Vassar is intellectual and in a small city. Haverford and BMC are a mile apart and maybe 20 minutes from both Swat and Philadelphia. Swat is Reed intellectually but much more straight-laced and on the opposite coast.

And if you aren’t yet, you might also consider Macalester. It is in St. Paul, one of the Twin Cities. It probably is a high match or a match for you.

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@nostalgicwisdom, Thanks for searching for those links. The figures don’t show the whole story as we don’t know how many applied or how many were accepted from each country. They do, however, demonstrate the competitive nature of international admissions, and why US admissions data isn’t applicable to international students.

They also indicate that the UK is not a major feeder to US LACs, which is probably due to a combination of factors: UK students have good home country options, the concept of LACs is not widely understood in the UK, the LACs seek cultural diversity in international admissions.

I don’t think colleges have set quotas by country, though they do balance admissions by region and try to keep the total percentage of enrolled internationals at a consistent percentage.

It’s interesting to note that the Swarthmore list reflects the student’s home address not citizenship, meaning that US and other expats living in the UK are included in the figures.

The total of the numbers on the Pomona map seems way too high. Elsewhere in the same documents the number of “visa” students is listed at 190 which sounds about right by percentage. Perhaps the map includes American expats.

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@prezbucky You’re a little off with some of your statements. Swarthmore is not urban at all. Yes, there’s a train station on the campus which takes 30 minutes to Philly, but the actual town is one of the quietest I’ve been to.

Carleton to the Twin Cities is the one of the largest physical distance for college town to a big city among what you listed- 45 miles. You can’t get there in 30 minutes unless you somehow maintain 90 mph. Furthermore, the public transportation is especially limited and expensive compared to others. On the weekend, there are just three bus routes for the whole day, and it costs $30 round trip. The trip to Mall of America takes an hour, while Downtown MN takes an hour and 30 minutes.

Both Wellesley and the Claremont Colleges have a train station. The station is next to Pomona Colleges’s campus and about a 10-20 minute walk from Wellesley College depending on where you are. The ride is shorter for Wellesley, but the walk is shorter for Pomona. All in all, it takes ~1 hour to get to Boston and LA respectively from either. Add 15 minutes to Scripps since it’s immediately north of Pomona. If OP gets a car, Wellesley to Boston could go as low as 20 minutes depending on traffic and a failure to abide by Boston’s speed limits (as most Boston residents do :P). Claremont to DTLA can take as little as 30 minutes (70 mph on highway with no traffic), though this is really only feasible early mornings on weekends and evenings after rush hour every day. Usually, it takes ~50 minutes if you avoid rush hour.

Pomona and Scripps are not rural or anywhere near it. SoCal is dense and sprawling, with over 18 million people. Claremont is bordered by a major city with over 150,000 people and within 5 miles to another with over 175,000. There is a big mall just 1.5 miles away from Pomona’s campus and five more major malls within 15 miles. Too many retailers, businesses, activities, and restaurants to name. Limiting it to just LA is missing out on the other 14 million people. I like that you are within proximity to most things (that includes snow!) while still in a walkable, tranquil college town with a surprisingly bustling village.

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@momrath Good point, I didn’t realize. Pomona’s numbers are based only off geographic hometown of full time undergrads, so expats are included. Reed’s numbers are based on geographic residence, but exclude 14 American expats. Carleton’s numbers are based off country of citizenship. Differing methods.

For Pomona in particular I counted the number and got 288 international and 1355 domestic students (the same international map + US chart is on the 2016-2017 profile as well- unfortunately, Pomona doesn’t have a 2017-2018 profile posted yet). Pomona’s 2016-2017 CDS mentions 1642 degree-seeking undergraduates, so I probably accidentally double counted something. Let’s say 287 and 1355. The CDS lists that 180 DS-undergrads are “non-resident aliens”, so that amounts to over 100 students who are American citizens living abroad!

Swarthmore’s number, based on the 2017-2018 CDS and the previous link, is 208 non-resident aliens and 223 students with foreign addresses. In other words, only 15 American citizens living abroad.

What a major difference (and alongside Reed as well). I wonder why this is. One thing I’ve heard is an international quota at top LACs. For instance, Williams and Amherst both have under 10% “non-resident alien”. However, at Amherst, 25% of the 2020 applicant pool was non-US Citizen (https://www.amherst.edu/admission/apply/international/enrollment), while for Williams 2021, that was 22% (http://williamsrecord.com/2017/02/22/applications-to-college-jump-up-22-percent/). Amherst’s international page (https://www.amherst.edu/admission/apply/international) states: “Approximately 10% are non-U.S. citizens who come from more than 50 countries; another 5% hold dual citizenship with the U.S. and another country and have lived or studied outside the U.S.”, which is similar to what the numbers above are for Pomona- 11% non-resident alien, 6.5% U.S. citizen living abroad.

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Heck, if Poughkeepsie (Vassar) is considered a “small city” then, Middletown (Wesleyan) is a virtual metropolis by comparison.

Both colleges pull from similar applicant pools, variously known for their smart, literate, politically active students and the number of cultural icons among their alumni:

Vassar - Vassar has a sumptuous campus, that is walled off from the rest of Poughkeepsie.Mary McCarthy who famously feuded with Lillian Hellman in the 1960s and,of course, Meryl Streep went to Vassar.

Wesleyan - Sebastian Unger (“The Perfect Storm”), Joss Whedon and Lin-Manuel Miranda went to Wesleyan. Wesleyan’s campus is closer to downtown and largely composed of small, historic houses. One notable exception is the eight story Exley Science Center which looms over everything.

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I have suggested in prior posts in this thread just a handful of schools (Chicago, Columbia, Princeton, Swarthmore & Pomona–which would enable OP to also study at Claremont McKenna). Yale & Harvard, as well. Barnard as an all female option granting access to Columbia.

I am going to suggest that OP also examine St. John’s College in Santa Fe, New Mexico & its sister campus in Annapolis, Maryland. Students at St, John’s are free to switch campuses.

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“Barnard as an all female option granting access to Columbia” … that phrasing really rubs me the wrong way.

Barnard is a college within Columbia and has its own benefits. It is not merely a conduit to the implied more worthy former all-men’s college of Columbia.

My D was interested in applying to Barnard, but not Columbia. Not Columbia because she didn’t want to be constrained by their core requirements. A thumbs up for Barnard because students attend fully integrated classes and have a huge selection of courses from Barnard and Columbia, all while she would also have the supportive, pro-women environment of Barnard. She loved the support for women’s issues in the workplace, alumnae network (as well as Columbia network), support for women’s health issues, etc.

Barnard is not a “lesser-than” which is good only as a back-door entrance to Columbia, but instead has real strengths and benefits of its own.

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@melvin123: I think that you read too much into my comment.

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@melvin123: I phrased it that way because OP is from England & does not understand that Barnard does allow access to Columbia .