<p>one thing to do is talk about the work u did do in the paper. the judges probably read the mentor supplement and then your paper to see if your paper focuses on what your mentor said you did. Its okay if u did get help from a mentor on ur project, but you have to seriously do the work itself or your lack of understanding will show in the write up. I did pretty well in the siemens competition and my mentor mentioned that i will be listed as a co-author on the paper.
hope this helps. good luck.</p>
<p>There is a question on the Intel app asking how you came up with the idea for your research. (i.e., did you come up with the idea on your own, did your mentor give you some data/equipment and send you off to play, did the mentor give you a specific problem and ask you to take a whack at a solution, etc.) For those working with a mentor in the lab, your research is almost always going to be something related at least tangentially to what the mentor is doing. That's the way labs are set up.</p>
<p>Some labs won't let you work unsupervised on certain equipment before a certain age. It all varies depending on the mentor, the lab, protocols, the subject, etc. Theoretical projects are a whole 'nuther animal.</p>
<p>aerialblue, are you going to give examples, or are you going to leave us to figure out on our own how what is most likely an overwhelmingly slim minority of questionably chosen Intel Finalists is able to make you reach your own conclusion that the whole competition is fatally flawed?</p>
<p>You're right in that "at the high school level, most kids don't even know what real scientific research entails." But "most" isn't "all," and Intel Finalists (particularly the deserving ones) aren't "most" kids.</p>
<p>can i do a siemens thing in only 1.5 months? or is that not plausible sinc ewe hav eot do it by october.</p>
<p>That is very unlikely. Research usually takes the whole summer if lucky.</p>
<p>Alright kryptonsa, I really hate calling people out but...take a gander at this year's STS Winners.</p>
<p>One example really hits home for me. I've known D. Rosengarten since high school from the Art of Problem Solving classes, and I can tell you that the kid has no mathematical knowledge beyond Multivariable Calculus (and a few specialty classes in Number Theory, Problem Solving, etc. - so nothing special like Differential Geometry so crucial to the field of GR) and has about the same mathematical maturity as I did (performing about equally well on math contests and in math classes - so I'll give him that).</p>
<p>However, he's been working on the GR project since his junior year of HS and I can tell you that at the beginning...he had NO IDEA what the heck he was doing. His mentor from...you guessed it...Stony Brook gave him some General Relativity books to read as a primer but in the end, it was his mentor who ultimately led the charge. Rosengarten simply didn't have the math background to do what his mentor did.</p>
<p>But regardless, his project is pretty trivial anyways (if you know anything about General Relativity).</p>
<p>I'll give him props for taking the initiative to make a connection with a Stony Brook professor, but proximity did help him out here in this one (for example...I myself would never have been able to work at Stony Brook, whose professors seem awfully willing to take on high school students...).</p>
<p>However, one thing about Rosengarten that will always stick out in my mind was that he was <em>extremely</em> gung ho about getting into Harvard. He has confided to me multiple times that if he didn't get in, then he'd be considered a failure, since usually the student from Great Neck North that gets in is celebrated as "the best among all." </p>
<p>I actually remember myself saying, "Well...what about MIT or Yale." To which I would get, "Well...I'd be OK with them, but they're just not Harvard." He really didn't care about science...he just cared about getting into Harvard.</p>
<p>We'll see what happens to Rosengarten in college (though...I doubt much, seeing as how he probably doesn't have the ability to complete MATH 25).</p>
<p>Alright kryptonsa, are you satisfied? Or do you want more examples?</p>
<p>Also, if you want a parallel to Rosengarten's experience, just read about that Neil kid or whoever in the thread that Equilibrium posted. Fairly smart people (both of them), but ultimately, not quite physicists or mathematicians.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You're right in that "at the high school level, most kids don't even know what real scientific research entails." But "most" isn't "all," and Intel Finalists (particularly the deserving ones) aren't "most" kids.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Alright kryptonsa, what is it about Intel Finalists that make them so much more special than you, or me? Is it that at the age of 17 or 18 years old, they somehow have a boatload of knowledge that you or I could not have obtained? Or are they just magically so much smarter than us all?</p>
<p>Perhaps these kids are smarter. But they're not so much smarter that they have a comparative advantage in creating a stellar science project on their own.</p>
<p>It's all about the connections.</p>
<p>I would have to agree with aerial - I have heard about certain individuals, David R. is one example, who complete award-winning projects with very little knowledge to back it up. Actually last year, a lot of new faces emerged in the top competitions, many that just appeared seemingly out of nowhere. Then there's Streich, who is everywhere lol.</p>
<p>^only he would abandon a clear-path to multiple IXO gold medals in favor of research. Now that's dedication.</p>
<p>@krypton: you know I would :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
You'd think that people who did so well in these competitions would be at the top of their game, but sadly, these high school competitions are not like <em>real</em> research with tangible, meaningful results. It's become sort of a running joke that a lot of former Siemens/Intel people get into Harvard/MIT with their winning projects, and then immediately sell out to Investment Banking or whatever after finding out that they could never succeed as real scientists.</p>
<p>As you can tell, this is extremely outrageous to me, as I know a lot of highly intelligent people from high school, who simply weren't able to get themselves the connections and equipment to compete at the level deemed necessary by Intel or Siemens. They were relegated to state schools (so as you can see Blueducky, there is certainly a lot at stake here when you think about it). All of the <em>serious</em> undergraduate scientists and mathematicians that I know of, know what it takes to succeed at Intel/Siemens...and hence, none of them take those high school competitions seriously anymore.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>HEAR HEAR</p>
<p>Although I know of people who aren't even doing science research in HS (making ISEF multiple years) for science; they just want to use it as springboards to careers in business (not surprised though, they do have family connections). Either way it amounts to the same thing: HS scientists not panning out as such in college. Although the highest echelon (viscardi, mitka, brockman to name a few) doesn't have the same problem.</p>
<p>Argh, too late to edit my post so...here's one of those "damn that sucks" moments:</p>
<p>I know someone who did very well in siemens last year. She spent a total of 6 weeks on her project in the summer of '07. At ISEF she then went on to win best of category grand award (despite, like the 50,000 winner from the chemistry category, getting no special awards whatsoever...not saying that's a prerequisite but it's usually a good correlation). Her project made her, not the other way around. I won't say what college she's going to as that would be too revealing.</p>
<p>Compare this to one of my friends (a CCer to boot :P) had been at his project for 3 years, just made ISEF this year (and intel semis) and didn't even get an award. Although, even before the awards ceremony he told me wouldn't win anything because he had an MD project, not the PhD flavor that many of these PhD judges were enamored with. </p>
<p>And yeah the first case had two research scientists for parents. :)</p>
<p>I'm not one to talk about things being unfair because some of the people who do get help are exceptionally bright anyway, but this was just a stark contrast I couldn't help but laugh about (also, the first case didn't even make STS semis, which is probably more of an indication that the difference in focus between siemens and sts allowed her to succeed in the first and fail in the second)</p>
<p>Talking about specifically named people here is a violation of TOS, people. Not cool.</p>
<p>As a 2008 Intel finalist and Siemens Regional Finalist, I can say conclusively that whatever you might claim about any specific finalists, students whose work was done by their mentors constituted a tiny minority. </p>
<p>Nearly all of the finalists got to Intel on their own merit, myself included -- my mentor provided only basic guidance and none of the key ideas. I came up with the project and all the ideas. (My mentor didn't even expect the results I did come up with...)</p>
<p>I did my work on my own, at home, sittin' and thinkin'. I talked, in detail, with most of the finalists, especially those for whom I had enough background to tell whether or not they had any clue what they were talking about. They did.</p>
<p>Also, for reference, I was rejected outright from Cornell and Hahvahd, and waitlisted at Caltech. I had 9 APs, 13 post-AP classes, a 2380, absofreakin' gorgeous essays and recs, made it into the finals of a USA_O, had clear and long-standing dedication to teaching (<3333)...and a 3.8 GPA, which apparently wasn't good enough.</p>
<p>I did <em>not</em> do Intel and Siemens to get into colleges. I <33333'd my research, and did Intel and Siemens for gravy -- because I wanted people to see my research, and how much I <3'd it. (One of the high-up dudes at Siemens commented specifically that I reminded him of some of the past winners who oozed love for their project and field.)</p>
<p>I never cared about those three schools -- although I thought Cornell was decent, for an Ivy. I had always believed that any school that was so stuck-up about their admissions -- for instance, the obsession with GPA, and conversely, the applicants' obsession with prestige -- clearly wasn't admitting a class that I particularly wanted to spend time with, at least not on the whole. (There are good, awesome people at all of those schools...they're just not the kinds of people the admissions office is looking for. They're not the <em>priority</em>.)</p>
<p>I got into the three schools I loved, and my state flagship. I agonized for a [redacted] month, and I still miss the other two...but I chose the One. ^_^ (PM if you want to talk about it.)</p>
<p>Sorry to interrupt the debate here, but typically, when a student contacts a professor what happens? Does the professor give the student a project? Does the professor simply have the student be his assistant? Does the professor ask the student to come up with his own project? Or do all of them happen?</p>
<p>It depends entirely on the field and the specific professor. The most common variants are:
--prof brings in the student on a project the prof's already doing (most common in bio)
--prof tells the student to piggyback on their research and see what they find, and the prof may or may not have something specific in mind, but it's not the prof's project specifically
--prof tells student to read these papers, understand this subject, and do whatever the [redacted] they want.</p>
<p>Research is frequently (not always) very informal. School tends to make you think it's something different than it actually is. Be chill.</p>
<p>Of course I want more examples, aerialblue. I knew problems like that existed all along, and I didn't deny that. What seems to be your claim is that such people comprise a majority, and if that's true, you've got 5 more people to go, and that's just among 2008 Winners. And I can tell you that I know 2 of those 10 are already out of the running to be labelled "undeserving."</p>
<p>"prof tells student to read these papers, understand this subject, and do whatever the [redacted] they want"</p>
<p>Thanks for the response. By they, do you mean the students do whatever they want?</p>
<p>Also, are all 3 of the variants of research you mentioned eligible for competitions?</p>
<p>I agree with all of the above posts. Here's my two cents:</p>
<p>I first participated in Siemens' as a sophomore. I didn't have any connections and knew no scientists. However, I did work on my project diligently for 8-10 weeks or so. I didn't even make semis, let alone regionals. The year after when I had a PhD for a mentor, I went to regionals. The irony of the situation is that for county science fair, my non-PhD project (from sophomore year) ended up doing better than the other. I don't know if it's just a coincidence or if the projects are really that good, but it's no wonder why all of the Siemens' winners have PhDs has mentors.</p>
<p>Also, having a really complex project title helps, even if it's for a very simple concept.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Talking about specifically named people here is a violation of TOS, people. Not cool.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Agreed, especially bad-mouthing them. (cartman voice) IT'S WRONG.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
I don't know if it's just a coincidence or if the projects are really that good, but it's no wonder why most of the Siemens' winners have PhDs has parents.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>fixed.</p>
<p>Awetmop, I meant that the students take the general type of idea they're supposed to study, come up with their own question about it, and figure out the answer, all on their own.</p>
<p>Neither of my parents have Ph.D.s. Aerial, I had no connections. I emailed two professors I'd never met before, did two interviews, got two offers, picked one. Period. Normal distribution, n00b. You get instances of several standard deviations above the mean with a sufficiently large sample size.</p>
<p>Let me tell you how I learned all I learned: I bought kickawesome textbooks, read Wikipedia, found lecture notes online, and ate it all up. When I went in to meet my mentor-dude, I already had considerably more background than most of his other totally new students: I had bought a really good introductory textbook in my field and chewed all the way through it, and as a result, we could cut straight to the chase. That was totally a product of <em>curiosity</em>, not connections. That's how most Intel finalists get their kicks.</p>
<p>(For reference, wannabe researchers -- Wikipedia is an <em>excellent</em> resource on science subjects, though it isn't always readable for non-experts. I can spend hours reading on technical topics that I've never heard of before. It's lovely <3)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/09Rintel.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1%5B/url%5D">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/09Rintel.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1</a>
This article describes at least one example of a totally self-made finalist.</p>
<p>arkleseizure, you were a 2008 winner. Hence, you're not even in college yet. Just wait until you arrive - some things might surprise you!</p>
<p>kryptonsa, if you want another call out, you're not going to get one. Rosengarten was only a notable example, but I and a few others from Cambridge have noticed attrition problems especially apparent among former Intel/Siemens participants. Let's change the tone of this conversation - there is nothing wrong with selling out. People do it all the time, whether it may be with college majors, selling out at the last minute to go corporate, or whatever. There are great incentives to do so, and it's getting to be that there are fewer and fewer reasons to remain in academia - especially when there are so many options and paths one could choose in college!</p>
<p>It's unclear to me whether or not the majority of the people from Intel/Siemens will not go on to become scientists. I (don't believe) I have ever stated such a thing, but what's not unclear to me is that many former science competition participants will and have gone on to do something different - and Economics/Finance is but only one of those paths! One of my best friends, a former Intel/Siemens participant, did a complete 180 in college and is now pursuing Film Studies and Entertainment Law, with an internship lined up with a major recording company.</p>
<p>That's the great thing about college - you can be whoever you want to be. The problem with high school is that you are only exposed to a small section of the vast possibilities of things you can do in life. I don't know very many high schools concentrating in Engineering, Asian Studies, or heck, Film Studies. And heck, I've read up somewhere on this forum that the average American will change careers something like 5 times, so you can pretty much imagine all the switch-around that goes on in college. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, having a really complex project title helps, even if it's for a very simple concept.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>QFT. The projects, in the grand scheme of things, are mostly quite trivial.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Aerial, I had no connections. I emailed two professors I'd never met before, did two interviews, got two offers, picked one.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's why I love this website...because you can directly contradict yourself within two sentences. Having willing professors IS a connection. Many people simply can't get that.</p>
<p>But anyways, the take home point is that having connections, and perhaps more importantly, a culture at your high school that encourages students into these competitions, are sure advantages over the typical American high school student looking to do the same things.</p>