Fisher v. University of Texas: Predict the SCOTUS decision

<p>"For all who don’t understand the need for AA. Here’s one of your own telling a good story.</p>

<p>At the intersection of privilege and college admissions: An apology of a former Abigail Fisher"</p>

<p>I read the above. There are some serious problems with what this writer has said. First of all, the way it works with Affirmative Action and URMs, is that it is NOT a tip factor but a big fat flag, a banner. That is what the difference can and often is for highly selective admissions. It’s not an “all things equal, but” situation. It make a huge difference. </p>

<p>The other issue that the writer does not seem to take into account, and this is a huge lacking in her case, is that a lot of those students accepted through Affirmative Action are NOT those who were looking for their next meal, or in poverty situations. They are often middle class, upper middle class and down right wealthy students who happen to be of color. Of the many, many URMs that I personally know who have been accepted to the highly selective school, the vast majority were full pay kids from families very much like mine. I have childhood friend who happens to be a full professor, lives in a million dollar house and is also AA. His kids were considered URMs and got the full admissions advantage purely because of their indicating that they were AA. Nothing to do with economic or other family challenges. Did they suffer from ethnic slurs, bigotry, and dangers because they were black? Probably. How much more than other kids who had issues of that sort who were not? I don’t know, but from a number of people I know, they will out and out say, probably not. Their kids lived privileged and safeguarded lives as compared to the vast majority of kids of any color and ethnicity. The URM affirmative action quarter given is solely because schools want this diversity in color/race and ethnicity. Yes, they do also take into consideration adverse family situations and economic hardships (and I do apologize, as need is taken into account in that regard, as a hardship factor), but that is a whole other story and occurs in families of all ethnic groups.</p>

<p>I find it insulting to AAs that the article and apology seems to link AAs to adverse family and economic situaton.</p>

<p>The fact of the matter, is that the whole crux of affirmative action, and what is really an issue is that the color/race/ethinicity is given admissions points, not that a person’s disadvantages are taken into consideration. The truth is that a well to do URM prospect is given that URM advantage because of his race. SImple as that. And that is where the bone of contention lies. I don’t know anyone who will begrudge someone who has had more obstacle to overcome, the tie breaker. It’s when it’s more than just a tie breaker and when the the decision is based on color. A well to do URM of color has a better chance these days of getting accepted at highly selective school than a non URM who has an adverse family/economic situation and identical files. URMs are flagged and often put in a pool with other URMs in deciding who gets accepted to give the college the diversity they want. Adverse situation are decided in kind while viewing the apps just with everyone else. Big difference.</p>

<p>And it is necessary to do this, because the ugly, ugly truth of the matter is that in many scenarios, if the apps are done on a totally color blind basis, with absolutely NO quarter given for URM status, NONE, you aren’t going to have much diversity at most of the top schools. There is a reason for those NMS categories for AA and hispanic students. Look at how many URMs straight out make the NMS cuts, for example. </p>

<p>And even giving economic and other true hardship situations the leg up, you still are not going to get the numbers for URMs. </p>

<p>Frankly, at UT Austin, they probably do better than most areas in terms of URMs just based on the fact that the 8% quotas are done by schools. Texas needs to get those schools that are heavily URM to get on the stick about getting those kids who are so qualified to apply to UT Austin, and that university needs to come up with money to meet the full needs of those kids if that is a sticking point. It’s horse manure all the way, if they need the AA card simply because they are willing to, say, meet full need for PELL eligible kids who make the 8% quota.</p>

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<p>If by the end of high school there are large group differences in scholastic aptitude, then the student bodies at the most selective schools should reflect that. It is strange to say that in areas that have low stakes for society, such as sports, we should hire the best athletes and ignore race, but that in higher-stakes areas, such as higher education, where political, business, and scientific leaders are being groomed, that we should sacrifice quality to meet racial quotas.</p>

<p>The problem, Beliavsky, in ignoring race, you get some undesirable scenarios. It comes down to selecting the scenarios that are the least undesirable and the least damaging. The fact of the matter is that in every selective college process, there are the flagged groups where those selected have some reason to be included that are not academic. If you think the URM pools are an issue, what about the athlete pools, celebrity, development, legacy, special interest ones. You really think that the friends of the admissions directors, the family members are not going get a bit of an edge? And then you want to take into account different backgrounds and experiences. It does not make for a very good situation when you have whole room full of rich white guys discussing the plight of affirmative action, or women’s rights, or URM problems. We’ve been down that path historically, and decided that it is not the way to continue. In time, the hope is that the preferences will not be needed and will phase themselves out. You think I like this? Not at all, but I understand why the policies are in place, and recognize why it s the better way. If you think all of Al Gore’s kids were Harvard material, you’re smoking some bad stuff. If you believe the president of Yale and other schools saying that the bar for alumni kids is so high up there that it’s almost discrimnatory for them, your smoking worst. Tell 'em to get rid of the designation if that is the case, and see what % of the class turns out to be legacy. I won’t even get into the development category.</p>

<p>Personally, I would like to see a pure merit system, where race, ethnicity, celebrity, legacy, connections, had NO place in admissions.</p>

<p>You gotta define " pure merit". The fact of the matter is that all sorts of issues do have merit.</p>

<p>*SCOTUS does not take cases to pat the appeals court on the back and let them know what a great decision they made. * Nor do they take cases with the express purpose of overturning. It’s about reviewing.</p>

<p>I’m still not sure, after several years of these AA discussions, that you know how holistic really works. It’s too simple to say, race trumps everything or race is “flagged” and then things snowball.</p>

<p>In each review, there are qualities desired that go far beyond stats excellence and rigor. It’s too simple to say, eg, well that kid was unfortunate to be born Black, let’s take him. The myth that race trumps and extra points are assigned, to equalize or leap him ahead, misses the other factors sought- diminishes or denies them. Somehow, in the hierarchical thinking, even ECs are claimed to be less significant, if a kid comes from a rotten school district. How so? Is it that there may not be a lacrosse team in the inner city, so, gosh, these kids can’t be lacrosse captain and show that leadership? They can be empowered, take on responsibilities and show leadership in other ways- sometimes far more impressive than the high performer who follows the same old paths virtually handed to him. And, many do. Their vision and energy is coveted. </p>

<p>Ime, the URM kid who slides by, doesn’t take on challenges that grow him, doesn’t have any semblance of rigor, just “gets by,” is not desired based on race. There’s so much I could say, but if you cling to the idea race trumps, you miss what holistic looks for, in its entirety.</p>

<p>Merit means a set of standards tied to academic achievement (or artistic achievement in the case of a school for the arts). Those standards do not include an applicant’s race, gender, ethnicity, religion, celebrity, family connections or anything else that the applicant has not worked to achieve. GPA, test scores, work history, extracurriculars, talents, would be included in merit admissions.</p>

<p>Merit is a matter of much more than academic achievement, in a stale system, if what you mean is follow the same old trodden path- get good grades, take a zillion APs, do well on standardized tests many of us feel are arbitrary, get some (often meaningless) title in some hs club. Why do you think so many top stats kids don’t get into top schools?</p>

<p>I do not think that grades and test scores combined with EC’s and work are either ‘stale’ or arbitrary. Arbitrary is adding points based on race, when skin color is not any measure of academic achievement.</p>

<p>Does Serena Williams need extra points to get to a final of a major? Tennis has been considered a too white sport after all and maybe for the sake of more diversity she should be given a few extra games, maybe a whole set to make sure there is diversity. Yes, this is sarcasm to make a point. Obviously, Serena needs no extra help just as many minorities need no extra help in college admissions. </p>

<p>Test scores and GPA are as indicative of success in college as points are in tennis.</p>

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<p>Based on her recent results, the opponents of Serena Williams should be given an extra one or two points per game to make things competitive :).</p>

<p>Yes, and Maria Sharapova was a poor Russian immigrant, a first generation tennis player, maybe she could use some extra points.</p>

<p>“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”</p>

<p>I’m sure Justice Roberts was speaking as a Legal Scholar, and not a Sociologist. (If not, the statement is incredibly naive.) It reminds me of a statement made one of my midwestern relatives: “I don’t understand why criminals don’t just turn themselves in. It’s the moral thing to do.” Yes it is the moral thing to do, but it ignores the way the world actually is.</p>

<p>All this recent thread talk is about the certainty race provides an unfair advantage. It would be nice to have a world where race wasn’t on the tip of so many tongues, with the certainty some out there are being scammed by others, losing “their” shot because of someone else’s race, that the other guy can’t possibly, in any way, have deserved his shot, that it was all because of his race, blah, blah.</p>

<p>As for sports, too convenient to select an individual sport. On teams, there are point makers and set-up guys. A college is trying to build a community that serves many needs, where individuals contribute and gain in various ways.</p>

<p>But that’s the point. Roberts is not a sociologist, nor is it his constitutional duty to be a sociologist. He is supposed to apply the law equally to all regardless of race.</p>

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<p>Then stop giving racial preferences. It’s that simple.</p>

<p>I found these two articles of interest in relation to this topic. Just sharing in case anyone else might find them relevant.</p>

<p>[Meet</a> the Supreme Court matchmaker: Edward Blum - U.S. News](<a href=“U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics, Economy, and Society | NBC News”>U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics, Economy, and Society | NBC News)</p>

<p>[The</a> Corporate Case for Affirmative Action - Businessweek](<a href=“Bloomberg - Are you a robot?”>Bloomberg - Are you a robot?)</p>

<p>I’ve been trying to figure out how Schuette fits into all this, and I’ve decided it doesn’t. The Schuette Appeals Court ruling was, um, peculiar in that it didn’t address whether AA violates the Equal Protection Clause, but instead ruled on the narrow grounds that the Michigan Initiative was invalid on political grounds. This has basically expanded the scope of the case, and of course SCOTUS’s decision would have significant impact going forward. I can see why The Justices would be attracted to it.</p>

<p>Fisher v. on the other hand, seems almost pedestrian in comparison. What’s at stake here … the definition of “critical mass?”</p>

<p>“But that’s the point. Roberts is not a sociologist, nor is it his constitutional duty to be a sociologist. He is supposed to apply the law equally to all regardless of race.”</p>

<p>Unless UT is in need of a really good cornerback of course. (Forgive the impertinence, but has anyone considered the implications of accepting C students who are good athletes and rejecting promising B+ students?)</p>

<p>NewHope33, you may have already seen this, but here’s an article that supports your premise of these two cases addressing different issues.</p>

<p>[SCOTUS</a> for law students (sponsored by Bloomberg Law): Affirmative action in Texas and Michigan : SCOTUSblog](<a href=“http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/05/scotus-for-law-students-sponsored-by-bloomberg-law-affirmative-action-in-texas-and-michigan/]SCOTUS”>SCOTUS for law students (sponsored by Bloomberg Law): Affirmative action in Texas and Michigan - SCOTUSblog)</p>

<p>To those who are adverse to AA. Please open an economics books and learn that wealth is not a zero sum game. It is not stagnant. It can be created and multiplied. A simple economic fact is that wealth creates wealth. </p>

<p>Offering education to the impoverished makes us all richer because, ideally, they will become richer, thereby building more wealth and on and on. The small minded seem to think that AA will make them poorer or the country poorer. This is contrary to the economic laws of the efficient use of national resources. To all the critics, please put down your 1939 eugenics manual and pick up a econ text.</p>