@roethlisburger What’s the national average ACT score?
@roethlisburger: That’s because there are far fewer divisions from 1-36 than from 40-160 (400-1600).
That doesn’t mean the ACT is easier for everyone.
Interesting article. I did see a big difference in schools willing to superscore the ACT in the course of just two years (from dd2015 to ds2017), For what it’s worth…
All the comments from people already at “elite” private schools and magnets is irrelevant for those in regular public high schools. Your classes are already at the AP level, so it’s like saying “my kid took all APs during HS”.
@droppedit True, but I think that public schools could move in the direction of having advanced classes without making them AP classes and the subsequent AP test, just as these private/magnet schools have done. Doesn’t help students in the here and now, but seems like it would be a better place to be. Obviously, as these private/magnet schools have proven, AP isn’t that important. I think that’s the point we’re trying to make and to reinforce that point from the article linked. Classes will still be rigorous but I do think it would eliminate some of the craziness and cost.
Her article: out of the mouth of…a private admissions counselor.
“brag about the 95% of the enrolled class being in the top 10% of their high school.” Interesting claim, since so many hs have discontinued reporting rank. Many top colleges report 50-plus percent not reporting, and that it’s growing.
If you’re worried about the pressure, well, spare your kids the pressure. Really. Take the reins. Nothing wrong with stretching but maybe the pressure to get A grades needs to be revisited, when parents are concerned.
For the vast majority of college frosh who enter college advanced in one or more subjects, AP courses and exam scores are convenient for both the high schools and colleges in evaluating how advanced the student should start, based on previous advanced work in high school. Non-elite high schools are not likely to want to go through the trouble of designing their own advanced level courses when they can simply use premade AP courses. Most colleges may prefer to use AP scores for advanced placement rather than have to administer their own placement tests.
Indeed, the AP program originally came about partly because some elite high schools (Andover, Exeter, Lawrenceville) and colleges (Harvard, Princeton, Yale) saw the value of some standardized means of offering college frosh advanced placement based on advanced work in high school.
http://www.andover.edu/gpgconference/documents/four-decades.pdf
http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/about/news_info/ap/ap_history_english.pdf
Seems ironic now that a program that was once promoted for elitist reasons by elite high schools and colleges is now commonly disdained by those associated with elite high schools and colleges, as it has become much more widespread among non-elite high schools.
Probably because it’s become a bit of a monster morphing from what it used to be. It a money making machine and doesn’t allow for flexibility in curriculum and teaching, and as the linked article states:
"Growing research suggests that schools offering the AP curriculum are only teaching to the test, the AP exams at the end of the year.
The Mastery Transcript Consortium is a group of high schools offering an alternative: a curriculum and assessment which promotes a deeper understanding and a “mastery” of the subject area rather than teaching to the test. While the list of member schools still looks like a page out of a prep school guide from the 1950’s, these are some of the most respected schools in the country and have the power to influence the colleges who have relied on their students for decades. Look for more schools, even public schools, to take a stand against unreasonable expectations for students by limiting the number of AP courses they can take each year or even eliminating the program altogether."
Obviously, given the article, many colleges are willing to forgo APs as a convenience.
As mentioned in the article, some key educators are looking at alternatives to the rat race in grades/transcript. Colleges seem amenable as they not only want bright students but students who develop deep, intellectual understanding and mastery of subject matter.
Re: #27
A more cynical view on this effort is that it is an effort by elite high schools to increase the distinction between them and “ordinary” high schools.
It would also have the effect of making college admissions using these types of transcripts more subjective.
Most high schools and colleges will probably see these “mastery transcripts” as just being more work to produce and evaluate (i.e. more costly) than traditional transcripts. So this effort may well remain just with a few elite schools, which may be the intent.
For one example, see: http://admission.stanford.edu/apply/selection/profile16.html
These kids aren’t stupid. They can read a stat sheet. They see that the vast majority of enrolled students at the top schools are in the top 10% of their HS class. That leads the kids to focus on weighted GPA and that leads to excess AP classes because those are the ones that bump up the GPA/class rank.
In our family the pressure is definitely not coming from the parents. D18 always says how the other kids’ parents pressure them to take all this stuff and how we are always trying to talk her out of taking all the AP classes.
Droppedit, the footnote is always, “for those whose hs report rank.” Stanford doesn’t have that written but it is not so easy to guess rank without it being supplied.
There seems to be a lot of roiling and boiling over this thread topic. Some venting.
I’m pretty close to admissions and from my perspective, kids should focus less on stats and superficials, as the be all and end all, and more what truly matters to the colleges, holistically. The real attributes they want to see. There’s so much hierarchical thinking on CC (gotta be the best, need national awards, need umpteen APs, have to get over 1500, have to have some title, even if you crowned yourself, those awful colleges, those awful elite preps, the pressure.) Then so many miss putting together a fully impressive package. They assume too much, dig (and think) too little.
These are 16 and 17 year old kids. If a kid can manage the highest orders of rigor, plus responsibility in ECs, fine. Really, fine. Some thrive on stretch. If anyone’s kid can’t handle that, take the reins.
So, @ucbalumnus, how do you align your thoughts with what is posted in the article regarding college admissions trends as well as what is actually taking place now, colleges accepting students without AP exams?
Aren’t transcripts already pretty subjective? Grade inflation, weighted GPAs and all? All these different systems which vary from high school to high school? (I’ll add my kids’ HS didn’t rank, calculate GPAs let alone weight them, and didn’t even give numerical grades or ABC grades)
You make it seem like some grand conspiracy. Yup, pretty cynical. 
Seems like they are sharing the plan pretty openly, website and all. They seem to be open to adding anyone and include a sliding scale for fees based on school budget size: http://www.mastery.org/annual-dues/
There are definite monetary costs to schools and students with the AP:
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/ap-classes-are-a-scam/263456/
I bet if you talk to college administrators, you’d hear negatives about the AP curriculum that mirrors some of what is in The Atlantic article (plus many other articles you can find online - there’s been much criticism).
GPA is just a line in 2 places, takes a second to read. Weighting is inconsistent across the board, so the more significant factor is the transcript. Some kids game GPA with easy classes. Some game it by loading up on the less consequential (but weighted) APs, thinking a high count of the easier ones somehow adds luster. And some skip the most relevant APs entirely. The whole has to look good and make sense.
A kid could spend most of hs working toward rank and miss what the top colleges really need.
Without a “most demanding” schedule designation from the counselor, there is a sense that the rest won’t become relevant. What that designation requires is a bit of a mystery. If student A only takes 6 APs while student B takes 8 or 9, is student A giving up a chance at top schools? Will the counselor check something less than most demanding? How much impact does that designation have when the college can see the transcript for itself? If student A has qualitative aspects that are superior to student B, is the difference in schedule important?
Regarding “students without AP exams”, do you mean non-advanced students in ordinary high schools who took regular college-prep courses (not AP or otherwise advanced level) in high school, or do you mean the tiny number of students at elite high schools which design their own advanced level courses instead of following the AP (or IB or whatever) syllabi? The former is a large group of students (and has always existed, so it is not a new trend), while the latter is insignificant in numbers compared to the total number of students going to college (although it may be more relevant on these forums where there is more bias toward elite high schools and elite colleges).
Examples of “stats and superficials” that you would suggest that students focus less on, and “real attributes” that they should focus on?
Of course, there are plenty of students posting here asking what they can do to make up for their lower stats for admission to super-selective colleges. Do you have any suggestions for them about what they can to do be attractive to the colleges that they desire?
Then why isn’t every student taking the ACT? Bag that easy 36 and head for Harvard. I think the speed element isn’t conducive to every student’s skills.
^ Well, for one, the tippy-tops aren’t extremely stats-obsessed. A perfect ACT/SAT doesn’t guarantee you an offer from Harvard or any Ivy/equivalent.
“Real attributes,” kids need to be able to dig for, nit the hierarchical thinking I mentioned. After all, we’re talking top schools that like thinking skills. And superficials are many of the usual preoccupations on CC.
The point isn’t to parse words.
“I’m pretty close to admissions and from my perspective, kids should focus less on stats and superficials, as the be all and end all, and more what truly matters to the colleges, holistically.”
Stats are not the be all and end all but the holistic concept starts with strong academics. You can’t be holistic with a 1000 SAT score and subject tests in the 500s or ACT of 20.
If these top schools didn’t care about stats, why do they have the highest test and GPA averages? And a GPA is not superficial for most applicants, it represents 3-3.5 years of a lot of hard work. The top schools have an average SAT of 1450-1500, and ACT of 32-33, if those drop to 1200 and 25, I can see you point. If they don’t (and I doubt they will), your advice is misguided.
Let’s say a student starts caring less about grades and tests, starts spending less time on them, and has an extra ten hours a week, what exactly should they be focusing on?