<p>So in the interest of not taking over a thread with a specific problem/question I thought I's start a new one. The question came up of how does one know about a specific teacher and how they run a studio? How many kids are weeded out in the first few years? Is this intentional and happening due to teacher pressure or some combined function of kids having trouble with the theory etc. part of the requirements? How can you tell as HS kid or parent? A mom of a kid who my older D went to HS with said that her son was the only kid in his class on his instrument (jazz) to make it through the program. Is this more common in classical fields than jazz or pop? Are these old school teachers people who kids had a sample lesson with and they just didn't show it then or people who they were placed with sight unseen? This has me a bit on edge. </p>
<p>There is always attrition in the classes. My D thought that the Dean (top tier conservatory) was losing it when, in the first Freshman Seminar session, he told them to look around because, by graduation, half of them wouldn’t be there. Sure enough, graduation day came and her class was half the size that it had been 4 years earlier. That is one reason why we all stress the importance of checking out teachers and taking sample lessons- but even that isn’t foolproof because things happen along the way (teachers leave for other schools, retire, etc). That said, I don’t think it’s right for schools to admit kids who don’t have a realistic chance at success and that the numbers listed for those who “complete the degree within 4 years” should be kept current and the stats readily available.</p>
<p>Half, really? I don’t think that has happened at my daughter’s school. A few kids have dropped out (a few got jobs and left before graduating.) But a few have transferred in so the class size is about the same.</p>
<p>Yep, half, but some departments lost no one while others lost quite a few.The class was overlarge to begin with because more kids than expected accepted bids for admission. The theory sequence washed out some early on, some failed juries because they were away from home and fooling around. Others left to pursue different majors at universities and LACs and a few changed to certificate programs because they spent a lot of time off campus competing and playing concerts.
The school also lost two teachers during her time there so that also impacted the numbers.
In the end, I think that the class ended up just a little bit smaller than was originally intended, which worked out well.
You can’t predict the number and quality of those auditioning each year nor how many will accept and attend. Schools usually do a fairly good job of evening things out over time.</p>
<p>Losing teachers will definitely impact class size. When teachers move they take some of their studio with them. At my daughters school there were several deaths and retirements – those impact the numbers a little differently. There will be fewer admits the next year as current students are absorbed into existing studios. Then someone will be hired and the numbers go up again. A few kids my daughter’s year have left because of health issues or substance abuse. In general most kids work pretty hard–there is no weeding going on, at least not actively on the school’s part, not like in some places where drama programs, for example, will have horrific cut policies.</p>
<p>Saintfan, Your son is looking at jazz drumset programs correct? What programs is he looking at? PM me if you don’t want to mention the programs here. If I don’t have knowledge of it very good chances are my son or someone we know will have knowledge of the program. </p>
<p>The answer to the question about a teacher is a hard one, sample lessons won’t tell you the whole story unfortunately, and often it comes down to fit as well, guy may be a great teacher, the student a good one, and it just doesn’t mesh. It is where networking comes in, try to see what students the guy has out there, talking to people who studied with them if at all possible…and even then it is hard. I have had people tell me who studied with Galamian that he was this great guy, have heard a lot of other stories that make me think he was a tyrant…</p>
<p>The weeding out depends on the school, even the top conservatories lose students, when they realize they aren’t likely to make it, see they aren’t progressing enough, but when I hear en masse stories usually it is programs that enroll a lot of kids in their music program each year, with the top music schools IME you don’t see that kind of culling (doesn’t mean it doesn’t go on, in some studios or programs, it is an in my experience caveat). </p>
<p>It is why it is always so valuable to think of alternate plans. For example, studying with a great teacher at a small school may be tempting, financially and otherwise, but if that teacher doesn’t work out, what do you do? Whereas if you go to a larger program, that has multiple teachers, there may be choices in terms of switching (which has its own issues), so it may be better to go where there are options if you aren’t sure of the teacher (that happened with my S with one of the places he got in…a better financial situation would have been a lot more limited)…it also might be wise if you pick a program with one teacher or limited teacher, to have programs in mind in case it doesn’t work out. One of the primary commandments around music (which i think also is valuable in life), is to say “I would love to do x, but what happens if X isn’t possible” and think about contingencies. It doesn’t mean obsess about them, or think that if you major in music you should also get a ‘real’ degree, but rather play a bit of chess, and have some idea of plays out from the current one:)</p>
<p>To the OP’s concerns, I wouldn’t spend a lot of time worrying about your kid being “weeded” out. The thread you referenced, about the student being put on probation, was an eye opener. In our experience (DD: BM and MM and DS: in year 2 of undergrad) it’s rare. I have heard lots of stories about kids leaving school for a variety of reasons, but I can’t remember a story like the one told in that thread. Especially when the student is working hard! What the what? That would be devastating. My heart goes out to that parent. Man, there’s nothing worse than when things are hard for your kid.</p>
<p>To minimize the risks, find out as much you can about the teacher and the studio. Sometimes that info is hard to come by, but places like College Confidential and other instrument-specific sites were really helpful when my kids were narrowing down their schools. For our D there was one school with a newish teacher with which she could not schedule a sample lesson. He was almost a complete unknown. This was a factor in deciding where to go.</p>
<p>Many if not most performance programs have formal barrier exams, sometimes yearly but at least at the end of the sophomore year. As a music faculty, we cannot predict who will thrive and improve and who will not. I have been surprised many times by who has failed and who has surpassed expectations. Additionally, students are thrust into a fairly narrow professional environment for the first time, and some are not intellectually satisfied by the limitations of their studies, nor with the companionship of fellow (musician) students. The weeding out takes places from several possible angles, and it is necessary, and best done early and often before it is late and that much more expensive to change directions. As painful as the process is for everyone, it is a blessing. </p>
<p>I am the OP on that other thread, and it sure is an eye-opener for me! I am still not sure if the teacher’s plan was to weed out kids. There are not that many to start with! There are fewer that 10 that study the instrument at this school, and that includes grad students! The program does require juries at the end of freshman and sophomore year, and if you do not pass sophomore jury you are asked to leave. I had anticipated that, but the statistics for the school as a whole indicated over 90% graduation rate, and it is a school that has kids leave to perform professionally so I was not terribly worried. I admit I also thought that if DD wasn’t “good enough” to pass her juries she should probably look for an alternative program that would allow her to work on her academics, as well as continue her music. We did talk about a plan B, but that was more about what would happen if she did not get her dream job after school, and not what would happen if she did not get through school. I also thought about a plan B that involved another school, possibly a university, if she decided this program wasn’t for her, but I did not think about what would happen if the program made the decision at this point! I thought that if they were so particular, and took so few students those students were likely to successfully graduate, and the statistics I saw bore that out. I am not sure if we could have culled more information since there are so few students who study with this teacher, and it seems like this is a teacher specific concern, but if I could have had DD contact current or past students of this teacher, I would have… In hindsight, I also think we should have talked about what would happen if she didn’t pass juries, since that was a known factor going in, Beyond that, I think you do what research you can, and hope that your child lands in the place that is best for him! I think what we are going through is an aberration, and not something one should spend too much time worrying about.</p>
<p>I would disagree, OP. Information is strong that staying the course and then making a career in music is the aberration, even at top tier conservatories (Julliard and Curtis). If a family can afford to help a student change course, it is less problematic, but if the student is going to school on loans, it is risky. Music is personally rewarding for those who play, sing, and/or listen, never a wasted experience. However, while having a degree in music may be enriching, it will most often not support a life and family financially. </p>
<p>Son’s teacher is an older professional who is well known internationally. He is very laid back but as son has learned his laid back comments are VERY serious. He doesn’t berate the students in his studio but he does expect them to adjust their playing to conform to his expectations. He doesn’t give out an A every semester to anyone in his studio. He does genuinely care about his students and will counsel them to let them know what they seriously need to do to make it. They have juries and levels and he will tell the students if they are not up to a level and won’t let them take a level if they are not able to pass. As I stated in an other thread, son started with 5 students and he is the last one standing for his year. The studio numbers remained the same with about 12 since 3 transfers were accepted. The school overall states they have an 85% retention rate. One left because he never really showed up to classes the first year. Two were told they didn’t progress as expected and would never pass the sophomore level (both were in all state and youth orchestra in high school). The fourth wanted to concentrate on jazz so he transferred to another school. At his school, some of the kids have a terrible time with aural skills and fail it which then basically puts them behind a whole year in their studies because even the music history classes require passing aural skills and theory. This truly discourages the student and some will give up. In retrospect when looking at studios, I would look to see the number of upper class students in the studio and if it is a small number, I would ask why. Anecdotally, something to look for would be If the studio teacher does a lot of team building activities such as dinners, hikes, special ensembles, etc. then that studio teacher is probably more committed to keeping his students than weeding them out. At son’s school some of the studio teachers host hikes, monthly dinners, etc and those are studios with almost 100% retention.</p>
<p>Momofbassist made some very good points and explanations. I caution though about placing a lot of “weight” on the idea of get togethers and team building events because, at some schools, the faculty members are active performers (with orchestral commitments or soloist appearances) and simply don’t have time in their schedules for personal, out of school contact. It’s great though if they can recommend events for the students to attend and help them make needed contacts- even making sure that the students in the studio get to attend events where the teacher is performing.</p>
<p>I just want to go on record that among my son’s friends at his conservatory ALL of them are still attending and they are now second semester sophomores. More importantly at my son’s conservatory students form strong bonds and these become almost as important for music making and learning as the time spent with their primary teacher. Almost as much work goes on playing with peers as it does in class. There was one boy, who is very talented, who my son said struggled academically. My son suspects he has learning disabilities that were not addressed when he was younger. The school has done a lot to help him and he managed to get through. </p>
<p>At the end of every year they have promotionals. I am not sure what is involved in these, but I do know it is time to evaluate where you are and how much progress you have made. As I said it seems like all the kids my son started with are still present. </p>
<p>More importantly at my son’s conservatory you are not admitted into a studio. You can easily switch studios depending on what you feel you need or want as a musician. My own son has split his studio. The first year he was studying with teachers on his primary instrument. This year he is studying with professors not on his instrument so he can work on his musicology. Next year he hopes to take lessons with a classical teacher. My son’s teachers do not have time to host dinners or hikes or social events. But when a guest artist sometimes a teacher will have a dinner with the students and the guest artist. </p>
<p>My daughter is now in her second semester at her conservatory. She reports that three freshman have so far left–two singers, due to injury, and the third for academic reasons. In her instrument studio, which includes grad students, no one has been weeded out, in fact that doesn’t happen. One will not begin grad studies there as she had planned due to deaths in her family. Two in my daughter’s studio took a one year leave of absence due to injuries, and came back. One of them is a successful performer now. The conservatory is very good about working with injured students and preventing injuries; it probably retains more than most due to this policy. Her studio teacher invited his studio out for dinner the first Friday of classes, and regularly to mingle with guest artists as well. Although he’s a very active performer, he makes time to do this important task when he can. Academics are an issue and it is important for students to work hard at them.</p>
<p>Saintfan, Tell you child when they get to school to try to join percussion ensemble even if he is a jazz drumset major. Percussion studios as a norm are very tight knit. They work and play together. Lots of get togethers at the teachers home with his family. It really is a different situation then other studios. My son gets help from upper classmen including DMA students just by saying “hey will you listen to this for me?” One has given him a lot of advice on becoming a free lance performer. He just spent a bunch of years freelancing Chicago before coming for his DMA. All the class years have their full numbers and they don’t have transfer students. </p>
<p>Woodwinds–just curious–when you say “injuries” do you mean damage to their vocal cords? (such as nodes?)</p>
<p>Piggybacking onto what Woodwinds wrote: my daughter, a senior at her conservatory is in two studios with two very different styles-- but “weeding” is the farthest thing from anyone’s mind. Teacher #1 is the absent-minded professor type. He has weekly studio classes but doesn’t coach his students in feedback technique. He’s kind and positive, but not paternalistic. Teacher #2 has a more holistic approach: she helps the studio, which has everything from pre-college kids to grad students, to work together and support one another. There are breathing exercises and healthy snacks (which even the grad students appreciate, believe me. ) She clearly loves and values all of them–the atmosphere is incredibly supportive. IMO, it’s great for my daughter to see both approaches to teaching. She has great respect for both teachers, as do the other students in both studios. </p>
<p>I wonder if I can guess which is the violist? :)</p>
<p>Neither–these are both violin teachers. (But both play viola on the side.) </p>