Food for thought for admitted students – a perspective of a parent

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
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<p>mancune,</p>

<p>I don’t know what your agenda is. There is nothing twisted about parents and kids having a wonderful relationship and sharing a lot about what’s going on. Do you believe any close relationship between parents and kids is a sign of a problem? That’s a pretty twisted thinking, don’t you think? Based on what was described, it appears that this family has a wonderful, open communication. Given that the kid turned out so well, happy and well adjusted, it does not look like there is any unhealthy emotional entanglement in this family. </p>

<p>The OP said she is the kind of person who draws pleasure from mentoring promising young people who work for her. Why would she not provide that mentoring support for her own son? As for her son, if he has parents who can provide first class advice on career management, it would be stupid for him not to take advantage of it, wouldn’t it?</p>

<p>This thread is wonderfully informative and helpful, and you have to drop in with snarky comments and twisted interpretation of everything. If you don’t have anything constructive to add, keep your sarcasm to yourself, and let others use this forum for exchange of thoughts, information, and insight.</p>

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<p>There’s definitely nothing wrong with the horses drinking on their own once you lead them to water. Congratulations hyeonjlee for a great post and a brilliant son.</p>

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<p>This is a quote from an article by Jeff Brenzel, Dean of Undergraduate Admissions at Yale (there is a thread with a link to the full article in the Parents forum):</p>

<p>" Do something that can be very hard: ask your mother, father and/or guardian what they truly think about the schools that have admitted you. Insist that they be specific about their impressions, and weigh what they say in the light of what you know about their good judgment. Why do this? First, they care about you and may know you in ways you don’t know yourself. Second, they have often been paying close attention to the differences among colleges. Third, they are probably going to be paying or helping to pay for this. Make it clear that you would like to make up your own mind, that you view certain things differently than they do. But ask them, listen to what they have to say, and weigh it carefully against what you think. By approaching them directly, you will also save everyone the agony of communicating by subtle hints, bizarre facial expressions, comments to relatives, or desperate pleading."</p>

<p>The full article is “What to do when colleges accept you” and it is from 3/29.</p>

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<p>Hyeonjlee， thanks for the excellent post. </p>

<p>I’ve been very lucky this spring – lucky enough to have several amazing options available. I’ve mostly narrowed it down to two: Yale and UChicago. The intellectual atmosphere you describe at UChicago is something I’m definitely looking for in a college; I want classmates who are not just pre-professional, but value learning outside the classroom, too. </p>

<p>I was wondering if you or any other students/parents had any insight on the extent to which this intellectual culture exists at Yale. I realize that you purposefully didn’t state the name of the university that your son’s friend attends:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>But could you let me know whether this friend attends Yale? A lot of things about Yale appeal to me: residential colleges, beautiful campus, and from what I can tell, an extremely satisfied student body. But I wonder if it lacks the intellectual atmosphere at UChicago. Its promotional materials certainly don’t center on “the life of the mind” like Chicago’s do. </p>

<p>Any help in making this tough decision is appreciated!</p>

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<p>Lewa:</p>

<p>My sister went to Yale and graduated a couple of years ago, while my brother is about to graduate from UofC. I myself am a junior at Harvard.</p>

<p>Among the ivies, Yale has the reputation of offering a charged-up intellectual environment most similar to Chicago, Swarthmore, Reed, etc. From my observation, I would tend to agree. The student body tends to exude a genuine excitement about classes and ideas in a very non-competitive, collaborative way. Students seem to inspire each other more than compete with each. My sister thrived in it and had a ball for four years. (My own school, Harvard, although bursting at the seams with genius-type kids, can suffer from a subtle anti-intellectualism among undergrads; maybe it’s how we process the stress.) You will suffer not an iota academically or intellectually by choosing Yale over Chicago, though I appreciate your concern.</p>

<p>My brother has felt that Chicago’s academic reputation is perhaps a little exaggerated. He feels the workload for most is no different than any other A-list school and based on his visits to classes at Yale and Harvard, does not have any particular monopoly on thrilling discussions. He feels that Chicagoans’ constant obsession with academic strenuousness is a little like the folks at MIT who constantly preen their egos by laughing at namby-pamby academics down the street at Harvard.</p>

<p>My brother is jealous of the super array of extracurricular and cultural offering available at Yale and Harvard, which he says vastly exceed what goes on at Chicago. He also says that kids seem more polished and socially confident at Yale and Harvard, which are not bad things to pick up either while you are in college.</p>

<p>Go blue, you can’t go wrong.</p>

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<p>@natsherman:
I’m currently deciding between Harvard and Chicago. Do you think you could elaborate a little on the “subtle anti-intellectualism”?
Thanks!</p>

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<p>Lewa,</p>

<p>No, the school I was obliquely referring to is NOT Yale. From what I learned/heard so far, Yale seems to be a WONDERFUL school. </p>

<p>Natsherman,</p>

<p>I largely agree with you. If the choice had been between Yale & Chicago, I would have preferred that my son attends Yale, because both have the similar/same academic emphasis AND it would have been an easy driving distance from home, which is THE major plus for us - perhaps not for him though - (plane rides makes all the visits much more complicated logistically).</p>

<p>One thing though: if your brother is a fourth year at Chicago, it may be the case that his cohorts and the kids of 2013 and younger may be slightly different. Chicago’s surging popularity as of late, especially since they adopted Common App and started to make a marketing push toward wider circle of kids, is producing classes of kids with more diverse ambition (like my son - the pre professional type) and attributes. The reputation of the lack of social savvy among students and the stereotype of nerdy, geeky, socially awkward intellectual types may have to be modulated in light of this new trend. My son’s report certainly confirms this. He occasionally says things like “those spoiled rich brats from the upper east side! I need to make sure that when I have kids they don’t turn out that way”. I am bemused and chuckle: somehow this is not the stereotype of U Chicago kids that comes to mind. </p>

<p>Regarding the charge made above by a poster that we are alpha parents meddling in our son’s affair and my son is a momma boy… I make a point of not responding to sarcasm and provocation on this forum. However, I will make an exception in this case since I don’t want this to go on file as yet another example of social awkward nerdy U Chicago kid who has no one by his mother to confide in.</p>

<p>We have a wonderfully open relationship with our son. He is actually far more mature, wiser, kinder, and thoughtful than most of our professional colleagues we have dealt with in our 40+ years of combined professional careers. You would be amazed how many emotionally dysfunctional, border line psychopathic individuals are running global fortune 100 companies.</p>

<p>Not only we love him as our son, we actually respect him greatly as an individual. On his part, he makes it clear that not only he loves us as parents, he actually likes us very much as friends and individuals. He enjoys talking to us, perhaps not as much as his friends, but enough so that he calls us frequently, especially if he is bored and writing papers and wants the “enablers” to justify his procrastination. Naturally, we share A LOT, not just as parents and a child, but as adults who share a lot of interests and who value each other’s opinions and insights. It’s not just one way. He showed me his papers. I showed him drafts of the article I was writing for a magazine. We brain storm and exchange ideas. My husband and I gossip about the professional colleagues with him. He talks about his friends. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, I am very careful not to intrude on his emotional world. I am not even connected with him through Facebook. I actually feel that it’s creepy that parents are hovering around on their kids Facebook page. I feel that Facebook and such among kids of his age are tools for social interaction among the peers, and I want to leave that space completely free of any peering eyes of parents. </p>

<p>In terms of all the mentoring and coaching, by now I think we have nothing much left to share: he seems to be on an auto pilot. The only thing I haven’t taught him yet is how to deal with dysfunctional, borderline psychopaths at work. The reason? He has not encountered these types yet so far. Perhaps when he starts his real Wall Street career, there will be a whole new round unless he figures this all out by himself also. </p>

<p>I mostly respond to his request for input and advice. He takes initiative. I offer my input. Sometimes, he rejects them. It’s up to him. Most times he accepts them, because he is mature and secure enough to know when he is getting good advice, he should take it. After all, why not? I had young employees in the past, not much older than my son, who were dying to be taken under my wing as a protege. He would be stupid not to take the opportunity to be mentored by someone who is probably one of the best around simply because she happen to be his mother!!!</p>

<p>Teenage rebellion is overrated as a necessary condition for the maturing process. If you have a pleasant, functional relationship with your parents, you don’t need to rebel to define who you are.</p>

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<p>I personally know a couple of Yale kids and boy their sense of entitlement blow my mind.</p>

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<p>I too know some Yale kids. They are some of the kindest most considerate kids one would want to meet. They do say that there is a group of ultra-snobs, but Yale didn’t do that to them, whatever it was, happened long before they arrived at the school.</p>

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<p>@Making<em>a</em>point, anecdotal evidence doesn’t really prove anything. Personally, the only person I know at Chicago isn’t exactly the most charming personality, but that doesn’t mean all Chicago students are like that.</p>

<p>@Lewa, boy do I envy your position. The ONLY college I would clearly pick over Chicago is Yale, and I’m quite sad I didn’t make it. To me, everything about Yale is better than Chicago. It seems just as intellectually vibrant but more well-rounded. If you haven’t check our their somewhat corny but endearing YouTube video “That’s Why I Chose Yale.”</p>

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<p>Elanorci-</p>

<p>It’s a funny thing about Harvard undergrad. Harvard has the best academic “brand” in the world, and, as a result, hauls in a disproportionate share of the country’s drool-over high school students. It kills everybody in the cross-admit battle. Probably more than any other school in the US, then, students here have an often unspoken sense of " oh my god, do I really belong here, or am I the admission’s mistake this year?!" The unspoken pressure to be “really special” is pervasive.</p>

<p>One way kids deal with this pressure is to adopt a very self-effacing “dumb old me” attitude about things. A lot of people just want to get through and out. I am really surprised sometimes, by how small a proportion of the student body seem genuinely intellectual – very few kids read much outside of class, conversation at the dinner table is not all that stimulating, at least not as much as you would think.</p>

<p>Harvard is also the target school of the country’s most ambitious stratum of high school students – people who know just what they want to do (which law school they want, which trading desk they want to work, etc.) and exactly how to get there in terms of grades, courses, extra-curriculars. These folks are smart and capable, but not necessarily here to stretch and broaden their minds. </p>

<p>Extra-curriculars here can be very time consuming and competitive – not a lot of energy left to grapple with subtle concepts.</p>

<p>Hope I am not being too negative – Harvard’s resources are unrivalled and pound-for-pound we may have the country’s most capable student body, but do not expect an intellectual shangri-la if you matriculate here.</p>

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<p>That Yale video would make me run in the other direction! (The one I like is the Macalaster one.)</p>

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<p>Thanks for the honest answer, natsherman. Guess I’ll just have to see how I feel after admit weekend. (:</p>

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<p>j’adoube – Thanks for that link. Just sent it to S2, who is on a plane as we speak heading for a return visit to Chicago!</p>

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<p>What link? My S1 will be visiting UChicago this coming Tue/Wed. This will be his first visit to Chicago. Didn’t plan well in advance, so thanks in advance for any advice for a first time visitor.</p>

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<p>I believe it was the link to the Yale Dean’s advice to admitted students deciding on which college to attend. [Jeff</a> Brenzel: What to Do When Colleges ACCEPT You](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>What to Do When Colleges ACCEPT You | HuffPost College)</p>

<p>While on campus visit the Oriental Institute (58th and University), and the Seminary Co-op Bookstore, just a bit north on University. Chicago itself has many places to visit including its great museums, the north Michigan Ave shopping area, Millennium Park (right downtown), Lou Malnati’s pizza, and Al’s No.1 Italian Beef (several locations).</p>

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<p>Thanks idad. Currently taking a closer look at the campus via google maps and [Campus</a> Virtual Tour.](<a href=“https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/archived/tour/index.html]Campus”>https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/archived/tour/index.html) I feel like going back to school.</p>

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<p>It’s a very exciting time, Allrounderdad. Enjoy.</p>

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<p>In polite society, it seems pretty vulgar to talk about the name recognition and prestige as an important factor for deciding which school to attend. It’s one of those things we won’t admit in public. But let’s face it. Deep down, many of us are influenced by this, right???</p>

<p>OK. Now that we fessed up to this, let’s talk about Chicago’s prestige factor. </p>

<p>I have the feeling that Chicago’s lack of perceived prestige among general public vis a vis Ivy League schools make some people hesitant to pick Chicago over the Ivies. </p>

<p>Well, if it’s HYP, I have to agree that their concern has a very valid point. However, middle or lower Ivies, hummmmmmm… I believe that view is very near sighted and provincial.</p>

<p>First, let’s broaden our horizon. In a rapidly globalized economy, if we are talking about prestige, let’s talk about global prestige. On this regard, middle and lower ivies do not hold a candle to Chicago. I have worked with business elites from overseas extensively. Many people are unfamiliar with the likes of Cornell, Brown, Dartmouth and Duke (not an Ivy, but at that level). Chicago is VERY well regarded, and opens the doors to elite community. It’s reflected on the lopsided international ranking.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/results[/url]”>http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2009/results&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Chicago is ranked as 7th in the world and 3rd in USA. If your future professional prospect involves various angles of global involvement, this is something to think about.</p>

<p>My theory is, Chicago’s lack of marketing savvy (till last year or so, now they are making up for it on a turbo drive) hurt their domestic ranking, but it’s worldwide renown due to its research prowess and the quality of their faculty is positioning it very well internationally.</p>

<p>Second, let’s talk about the vector, meaning where it is heading. If you are buying stocks, you want stocks with very good forward movement, rather than stocks whose value has peaked. Chicago has a tremendous head room. It has all the makings of a world class university that has not been given proper credit due to poor marketing and positioning till now. You all witnessed what a couple of year’s worth of marketing and promotion did to the application numbers and admit rates. No amount of marketing would have done this if the fundamentals were not there. This just proves what latent assets Chicago failed to utilize as their arson and what they are, and will continue to be for a while, able to accomplish when they are fully utilizing everything they go. </p>

<p>Add to this the recent announcement of adding 100 faculty members, new building plans, more substantial commitment for career counseling for students, etc… You are looking at a stock that is priced “cheap” for its true value and will move up quite impressively. If you are an investor, this is the stock to buy.</p>

<p>Interesting data point here: we all consider Columbia and Penn as highly selective, prestigious schools. You would be surprised to learned that about 20 years ago so so, these “stocks” were pretty “cheap” relatively speaking, especially Penn. They made a point of engaging the “market” to increase their appeal and achieved a very high brand equity by now. So, those who bought these stocks 20 years ago, they made a very good investment decision. Here is the link for the historical college rankings. </p>

<p><a href=“http://web.archive.org/web/20070908142457/http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/[/url]”>http://web.archive.org/web/20070908142457/http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Chicago emerges as an liberal arts counterpart to MIT and firmly established as part of HYPSMC (standford, MIT, chicago) cabal in a few years.</p>

<p>OK now that we aired our vulgar side, we can all go back to the regular programming on the noble pursuit of the life of the mind</p>

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<p>As a university, Chicago has been world class since its founding and recognized for its intellectual commitment and prowess, and has long been considered a peer to the top Ivy’s, nothing really too new here. For example:

</p>

<p>The College, however, has had a bumpier path. The University has not always known what to do with it. At one point it wanted to merge with Northwestern (and almost did) to create The Universities of Chicago, with the undergrad school in Evanston and the graduate school in Hyde Park, sometimes they just wanted it gone, other times they wanted it to be only two years with the first two years in a community college or high school. One thing that has been constant is a continuing effort to remake itself and to experiment with undergraduate education, even “inventing” the major along the way. Chicago has been the peerless leader in the search for what it means to liberally educate a student (see Donald Levine, Powers of the Mind: The Reinvention of Liberal Learning in America).</p>

<p>Not all that long ago it was decided to increase the size of the College (it was about 3000, I believe, when I began as a Chicago PhD student), raise tuition, focus on improving student life, and reducing the Core requirements. This effort was begun under Dean Levine and brilliantly expanded under the tenure of Dean Boyer. Admissions Dean O’Neill began to upgrade the admissions department and improve marketing and did so with great success; the fruits of which are being enjoyed and expanded upon by VP Nondorf today.</p>

<p>Chicago’s popularity with students has recently taken an upturn, but that is a separate consideration from its history of being what many consider America’s intellectual powerhouse and purist university (see for example: [U&lt;/a&gt; of C is the Great American University, authorsays - The Chicago Maroon](<a href=“Rambling and flat, this family turmoil doesn’t amount to a handful of cherries – Chicago Maroon”>Rambling and flat, this family turmoil doesn’t amount to a handful of cherries – Chicago Maroon)).</p>