For those who want to get into top colleges...

I see a lot of posters give advice to high school freshman and sophomores to go ahead and relax it’s too early for you to worry about college admissions. Relax, enjoy high school…that is a recipe to end up at a CC or state college (nothing wrong with that except it’s not your goal)

  1. Relaxing Is bad advice, if you want to go to a top college you need to work hard from the time you decide that a top college is where you want to go because the competition is stiff.
  2. Working hard includes in and out of the classroom
  3. You can assume your competition has been working for years to accomplish the same thing.
  4. The time to relax immediately AFTER achieving your goal (take a break and enjoy your accomplishment before you start on the next one).
  5. Don’t be fooled, unfortunately you can work as hard as you want and still not get in.

Re: 4----Hence all the “Will I get rescinded?” threads here on CC.

They should work at much as needed (to achieve their goal), as little as possible (so they do have some relaxing time).

Re 5:----There have been several threads this spring with the title “I wasn’t accepted anywhere.” Opening the thread we learn that they were in fact accepted at Cornell, WUSTL, USC etc. They feel that they deserve better since they worked so hard in high school.

@TomSrOfBoston And the schools they got into are already very good!

Nothing that I have seen in my educational career has suggested that Kid X can decide he or she wants to go to HYPSM and then just “work hard” for that “goal.” It just doesn’t work that way. The goal will distort the student’s high school work. It can cause counter-productive grade grubbing that torpedoes LORs. It can cause a student to be self-focused in classes which squelches collaborative work. It can snuff out curiosity and creativity as a student just connects the dots that he or she feels that others expect to be connected. It leads a kid to run for class president or achieve first chair violin when their real passions lie elsewhere. Here’s what you do in high school: treat the experience as an end in itself and then find a college that fits you. An elite as a goal is a false idol, and successful grownups across the nation can attest to this.

Perhaps some of the reasons that people seek elite private colleges:

a. The perception that public and non-elite private colleges are inferior.
b. Having a goal of some elitist profession (e.g. Wall Street or management consulting) that preferentially recruits at elite private colleges.
c. Perceiving that some professional goal requires an elite college (even if it does not).
d. A top student in a high school being told over time by teachers, parents, etc. how s/he can aim higher than the state flagship, internalizing the idea that the state flagship (and similarly selective other private and public schools) is “beneath” him/her.

Of course, realism means that, if one does not have a large unearned advantage (e.g. parent who donates a building to the college) and is not so greatly talented that high but not excessively stressful levels of effort produces top end academic credentials plus top end other achievements (particularly recruitable athleticism), then getting into an elite college is the longest of long shots, and excessively stressful levels of effort may result in a bigger letdown when the rejection letters come, as well as other negative effects on one’s life.

  1. Apply to safeties

Don’t fit yourself to a college, find a college that fits you.

I’ll add to post #6

e) bragging rights

To me, the #1 advice for a student aiming at a highly ranked school, is that they need to spend time understanding what they really want in a school and understanding what each university really has to offer.

“MIT” and “Harvard” are pretty much abstract concepts to most high school students. On the most part high school students have almost no clue what it means to wake up in your MIT dorm surrounded by other MIT students, trudge off to class through the snow or a northeaster, sit through a class that teaches at twice the normal speed, and work through piles of homework after class. This is a good fit for some students, but MIT and Harvard and similar schools are NOT a good fit for the majority of students, even students who think that they want to go to a school with a big name.

I know lots of MIT graduates and Stanford graduates who work alongside UNH graduates and U.Mass graduates and the latter keep up just fine (or in at least a couple of cases I know are well ahead of almost everyone).

“unfortunately you can work as hard as you want and still not get in”

This of course is very true.

I do think it is a mistake to turn the whole high school experience into an attempt to get into a top college to which many talented students are denied admission every year no matter what they do.

No one is saying that students should not take their schoolwork seriously, choose challenging courses, and get involved in some activities (jobs or clubs or volunteering or athletics or research or internships). Of course, they should.

But there should also be a sense of enjoying high school classes, activities, and friendships for their own sake, and of exploring many possibilities and being open to changing your mind about what you like.

Yes, work hard and prepare for the future, but remember to live in the moment, too. You do not get to go back in time to enjoy high school.

There is always a “next step”- after high school, there is college; after college, there is grad school; after grad school, there is a job; after a job, there is a promotion; etc. If you live your whole life always focused solely on the next step, you will not enjoy any part of your life.

The wisest highly ambitious people balance both the future and the present.

And yes, many of them attain admission to top colleges, amazing jobs, etc.

Very good point @snarlatron one of few good comments here

At the end of the day, regardless of how much planning and hard work goes into it, kids ultimately are who they are. If it requires an unnatural amount of work, dedication (I mean this literally - work that is not natural for the kid). then they likely won’t and shouldn’t get in to that set of X schools. They also likely wouldn’t be happy in that environment.

I think it’s sad when so much emphasis is put on getting in to that specific school (s), so ECs are planned, classes are planned, volunteer work is planned to create the veneer that that is representative of the kid. If s/he would normally participate in those activities, great. If not, you’re kidding yourself. You can’t maintain that facade long term, nor would you want to. Aim for schools that fit who you are or want to aspire to be. But be genuine about it.

I would like to respectfully disagree with the original post. I often comment for students to work hard AND to relax, do things that they like, so they can help learn about themselves. I’ll defend that.

High school is not pre-college. People naturally grow and develop from approximately from age 14 to 18. Compare first day of 9th grade photos with high school graduation photos. But the growth isn’t only physical. It’s intellectual, emotional, social, etc. as well. Young people are learning to grow from being concerned about what others think of them and the things they do, to what they enjoy, who they enjoy, what is best for them in their life. That’s a process that isn’t all about making A’s in pre-calculus, then calculus, then the next math class, though working hard and making good grades is a good idea.

Important growth can occur in relaxed situations with friends, doing things that a person might enjoy, or doing something that they had no idea they’d enjoy. Even just looking at academics, two of mine fell in love with fields they only discovered because circumstances forced them to a class that they had no intention of taking. A young person might also discover a life-long love of an activity by doing something with someone they enjoy. People can be very different, so the opportunity to explore who one is, is really a gift, and very important.

I certainly wouldn’t knock anyone for striving to go to Penn or Dartmouth or Chicago. These are great schools with great students, faculty, and staff. They have sterling reputations, and that’s certainly worth something. They do provide opportunities to establish great personal networks. I think that is also certainly worth something.

And, there is an unwarranted view out there that attending these schools is absolutely crucial, that those reputations and networking benefits outweigh everything else. Most “successful” people do not attend a Top 20 school. Some examples: I know an entrepreneur who started a business in a city with an Ivy. They initially hired interns from that Ivy. They found them lazy and entitled. They started hiring interns from another school in the city, which is also a very good school, admittedly, but not a Top 50. They found those students vastly more hard working, resilient, and willing to think outside the box to be creative in finding solutions to problems.

I know 3 people with wealth that reaches into 8 figures, in one case perhaps into 9 figures. They are also successful in their personal lives. None had more than a middle-class upbringing. Wow, where did they go to school? One attended a state flagship ranked probably just above the middle of state flagships; one attended a second-tier public university; and one attended a third-tier public in a state with a very poor reputation for higher education. Guess which one might be worth 9 figures? Two went to elite grad schools, one did not go to grad school.

I attended a very highly ranked public university. One of my roommates is a prof at a Top 20 LAC; another is a prof at a state flagship. The latter has published about a dozen books and essentially created their entire academic field. Another friend teaches at a Top 20 university, another is an extremely successful doctor who runs a major foundation that brings medical services to a population desperately in need of these services. One fellow student–who I met but did not really know–is an iconic television/film figure of our generation. I know dozens of doctors, lawyers, and executive officers. I had a lower middle-class background and have a very nice life.

And, this is significant, and troubling,

There are real costs in making attendance at elite private universities the goal, as is suggested in the original post. We just had dinner two nights ago with a college friend and their spouse, who are both profs at, let’s call it a near-elite LAC. They said overwhelmingly the biggest change since their own college years, and since they started teaching, is the emotional distress and fear of failure among their students. Students regularly talk about suicide. The number of students seeking counseling (which is great) has spiked enormously in recent years. I mean spiked. I’ve heard two presentations from health services at my own university. They showed a graph of the number of psychologically related visited to the health center. We are literally talking about 20x to 50x the number of visits per student since I was in college. Students are terrified to not make A’s. They are terrified to fail at anything. They absolutely do not know how to respond to a setback.

Or course, we all fail at things in life. We all meet unexpected setbacks. We need to learn to overcome challenges, to be resilient, not to crumble. This is best learned naturally as we lead our lives and do human things. It’s not learned in an expensive summer program. I’m all for academic enrichment, summer programs, etc. My kids have done lots of that. But it SHOULD be fun, it should be something they want to do because it is interesting. They are kids. They are learning to be adults, and need space to do that.

And think about this. What if our message is (and to a large extent it is), your goal should be to go to an elite school? Well, a pretty set number of people are going to do that? What about everyone else, the 99% who aren’t at a Top 20 or Top 30 school? Are we telling them they are just failures? It seems like more kids are viewing themselves that way, to their detriment and to our society’s detriment, and even students at those elite schools live in fear that they will lose their spot, or not be able to go on to a top grad school. I can tell you those 3 wealthy people I mentioned above who spent college at their public universities (and one not Top 500 school at that) did not spend their high school and college years fearing that they had failed life. They worked hard, yes definitely, but they also had fun with people, which is a big part of their success today.

So yes, students are well served to work hard. Of course. But they are well served just being people, learning who they are, what motivates them, what inspires them, who and what make the want to be a better person. And that’s how we are really most successful in the end. That’s my two cents.

@ttg a thoughtful post, and great advice. The wealthiest people I know never went to college at all, but that is not the point. There are those who want to go to an elite college for whatever reason. The sad fact is that it’s a difficult endeavor and high schoolers, including freshman need to apply themselves early in life to accomplish it.

@CU123, thank you! Very timely. I read the NYT and Washington Post this morning and found these two articles. There are pay walls, but the links should open for subscribers and anyone who has not reached their max of free articles.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/12/us/college-student-suicide-hamilton.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/less-cramming-more-frisbee-at-yale-students-learn-how-to-live-the-good-life/2018/05/12/bb02525a-4ee4-11e8-84a0-458a1aa9ac0a_story.html?utm_term=.1c125e36e9a1

The very sad story of the account of the Hamilton student is what I was saying that professors tell me about their students in general. Many are in deep distress–many more than previously–and parents very often have no idea. Professors have literally told me that large %'s of their students are struggling like this Hamilton student, and there parents show up at graduation and tell them how much their kids have enjoyed their experience at the school.

Regarding the Yale story, I guess you can get into Yale and then learn how to be happy and human.

I still think that even for those aspiring for Ivies and similar schools it unhealthy to take an approach that you are going to play the game full bore AND THEN RELAX. Does this seem like the best way for an individual to develop as a healthy, balanced human being? In the long run, that will overwhelmingly be the most important thing, not that a student will be attending Yale instead of some other very good school (because if a student is bright enough to get into Yale they’ll have other great choices).

And we are talking about 15- and 16-year-olds. I think back to when I was that age, and, jeez, I was a pretty normal kid, but a years-long goal of getting into a school with a sub 5% or sub 8% acceptance rate, where MANY hooked kids (athletes, URM candidates, very wealthy kids, very famous kids (presidents’ kids!)) will have an enormous advantage on me, with years of striving and pressure, where even a B is a significant setback, well, that might be stressful, and maybe would have kept me from doing just things, which have contributed to making my life successful and rewarding. I think I learned more taking a fishing boat out into the Atlantic with just my other high school friends and staying out all weekend, on the ocean, catching blues to use for bait to catch sharks. No adults around.

Is Yale, for example, worth it if one arrives as a stunted individual who has failed to develop many of the qualities necessary to navigate life in the modern world.

Everyone will find their level if they are allowed to grow and develop in a way that fully acknowledges and appreciates our fundamental humanity. And yes hard work is a very benefit part of that–I work hard–but a broader perspective is important.

Those who go to college as pre-meds will continue the grind for another four years, since B grades in college are bad for one’s chance of admission to any US medical school.

“I know 3 people with wealth that reaches into 8 figures, in one case perhaps into 9 figures. They are also successful in their personal lives. None had more than a middle-class upbringing. Wow, where did they go to school? One attended a state flagship ranked probably just above the middle of state flagships; one attended a second-tier public university; and one attended a third-tier public in a state with a very poor reputation for higher education. Guess which one might be worth 9 figures? Two went to elite grad schools, one did not go to grad school.”

IMO, getting a college education is more than making X amount of money. Where I live, in the past 25 years, you could have by-passed college altogether, got your Realtor’s license and made a ton I money buying and selling homes.

The one thing about an excellent education is that it stays with you for the rest of your life. As one of my fiends who attended Y both undergrad and med school said “education can never be taken away from you”. I agree…

When it comes to doing what it takes to reach top college goals, their are different ways to go about the goal. In the ChangeTheGame household, we like to live off of the “work hard/play hard” mantra because we only have one life to live. The goals based off of that tend to be a little old school (doing the best you can do, treating people right, sharing you time, your talents, and your treasures, and living your life to the fullest doing the things you love) so I am not certain how those tenants will end (daughter decided those reaches will be for graduate school, if at all). I don’t disagree that reaching for the top schools alone is just a false idol but hopefully there are other goals attached to that initial goal that make the journey a worthy one whether the child succeeds or fails in reaching that goal. So depending on one’s child, the advice in the original post could be the key, or may not be the key, but the hard work/focus on reaching a goal is something that “travels well” in my book.