<p>UCB is most well known as well as UCLA... USC... noone really knows... at least in my country..</p>
<p>psmyth000,</p>
<p>
[quote]
...but, are UC Berkeley, UCLA, and USC ( University of Southern California) very well known and prestigious colleges in your countries? If one were to rate them, how would they be rated from best to least?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Isn't it the original question of the OP? His question, based on semantic analysis, would refer to colleges which are well-known for their academics/economic values and perhaps recognized/perceived highly by potential employers. Do we normally rate best-good-bad-worst colleges based on their appearances on TV? If that's the case, you're implying that the OP bears no academic/economic purpose in starting this thread? In the country where I come from, Golden Gate University, is at least as famous as MIT and more famous than Princeton, because everybody there thinks that it's one of the easiest colleges to get into. Would it be the respond that the OP, or you, expect from the original question?</p>
<p>No the person who started the thread clearly stated after one of my posts explaining that he wanted to know the fame of institution X or Y around the world. Here is what he said : " Yes, exactly. I am merely asking which school is the most "well known" and popular." I am getting a bit bored about having to state this over and over and over again. I am also not the only one who has understood his question on this thread. Check out the other posts.</p>
<p>Nietzsche,</p>
<p>
[quote]
rtkysg -- I'm not sure why this is such an explosive issue for you. The question was not about quality; it's not even about prestige. It's simply about how known Californis schools are in Europe.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is not about being explosive, this is about validity of statement in response to the original question. And it's always better if someone respond directly to the question instead of questioning the motive of the question, as to reduce the forum's heat. I believe Alexandre or any other moderator would agree with me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For example, I have seen that frequently in the US, people have heard of the Sorbonne but not of Ecole Normale, which is frankly ridiculous. However, this does not mean that it would be more difficult to be hired in the US out of Ecole Normale than out of the Sorbonne.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Not necessarily, Sorbonne, being more well-known to average Americans, has attached academics prestige to its name. When employers are in doubt they will choose the safe bet. In this case, graduates from Sorbonne, the more well-known, would have a better chance to get a job than graduates from Ecole Normale in the States. Similarly, Harvard's graduates generally have the advantage over their Princeton counterparts in non-US countries, even though people 'in the know' regard them as equally prestigious.</p>
<p>psmyth000,</p>
<p>Evaluating the use of his language, I assume (no offense to the OP) that he is an overseas high school student who is searching/comparing US colleges with good names outside the States. Perhaps when he said, well-known and popular, it referred to the college's standing in the community based on popular perception. I doubt the OP is also refering to the colleges that are known <em>for their graduates having no jobs or deemed lousy</em>.</p>
<p>Haven't you just prety much stated my position again? The OP wants to know what Cal unis are better known outside the USA. I told him that in my region the 4 most famous ones are: USC, Stanford, UCB & UCLA. I never said they were great or bad unis nor did I rank them in order of popularity which would probably be:</p>
<p>1: Stanford joint with UCB
2: UCLA
3: USC</p>
<p>Caltech and UCSF are not that famous mainly due to their specialisations. People in their areas will most likely know them but like other specialist schools such as SOAS, New School for Social Research, Rockefeller Uni, Sciences Po, Les Roches are not widley know by the Mr. John Smyths of Europe. </p>
<p>The OP asked about 3 unis (UCB, UCLA and USC) I just put Stanford in as probably the 4 more famous unis of this region. </p>
<p>The world is not a black and white place in which every uni is judged and known due to their academics achievements and nothing else. Many other factors have influiences over the fame of a place such as: Alumni, lenght of existance, public relations office quality, events that have happend there ex: The Duke party problem, LSE's student revolts in the 60's and many more. </p>
<p>Here is another example of what I am saying: King's College London has received many requests from people all over the world about using their religious database featuread in the Da Vinci Code eventhough no such database exists. Here is an example of how a mention in a popular book has made many people believe King's has one of the best research databases in the world elevating the institution on the eyes of some.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Haven't you just prety much stated my position again? The OP wants to know what Cal unis are better known outside the USA. I told him that in my region the 4 most famous ones are: USC, Stanford, UCB & UCLA. I never said they were great or bad unis nor did I rank them in order of popularity which would probably be:
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think you still haven't understood my argument. Let me ask you, should I say that in the country where I come from Golden Gate University is more well-known and popular than let's say UCSD because it has a lot of rich,party students from my country? The question here is <em>what kind of popularity and in which level</em> the OP here is referring to? For example, let's say in Malaysia, 10% of the population know about UCSF and 90% know about USC, but this 10% represent most employers and academia and the differential 80% know USC because of easy admission. Would you then trump UCSF as being not well-known? What I'm arguing here is that the definition of popularity and being well-known in your context looks too narrow to be valid <em>in this CC thread</em>. In fact, I'm questioning your being able to represent Mr. John Smyths.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Here is another example of what I am saying: King's College London has received many requests from people all over the world about using their religious database featuread in the Da Vinci Code eventhough no such database exists. Here is an example of how a mention in a popular book has made many people believe King's has one of the best research databases in the world elevating the institution on the eyes of some
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So do you agree that Golden Gate University should be mentioned as one of the most well-known schools in California since it's famous for having almost every US Study agency would guarantee admission to the school if you're rich?</p>
<p>For the 127 time I am not saying that standard = fame. As you mentioned Golden gate is a well known university in Malaysia not due to its academics but for a party scene. BUT IT IS STILL WELL KNOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which is what the OP wants to know regarding the cal unis.</p>
<p>He has not asked if the academic/recruitment people of Asia, Oceania, Europe and etc... think about the 3 unis but what their general fame is. Are they well known? Not for how they are regarded. A uni can be known for any reason quality and etc... Some times a mention on something such as a tv program and whatever may elevate the popularity of a uni. Another example applications to St. Andrews in Scotland incresed by a large amount after Prince William went to study at the university. Was this only due to a huge increse in academic standards over 9 months or the larger eposure of this uni due to this?</p>
<p>Think of it in Human form. Do we know Jack the Ripper and the Rev Jim Jones for the same things that Gandhi & Mother Teresa are known for? No of course not but they are also famous due to their actions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As you mentioned Golden gate is a well known university in Malaysia not due to its academics but for a party scene. BUT IT IS STILL WELL KNOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which is what the OP wants to know regarding the cal unis.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Really?? Is this really what the OP wants when he actually said popular and well-known, that is he might also be interested in possibly negative fame ? I really doubt it, especially when he mentioned the word prestige in his original question. Consider University of Phoenix which has a lot of advertisement in the form of internet pop-up, I bet most of us here have seen it somewhere when browsing the Net. How about claiming University of Phoenix as being the most famous business school in the States?</p>
<p>What I think the OP wants to know is that he's heard about Cal (Berkeley), UCLA and USC in his country and he is curious about the standing of these universities relative to one another globally.</p>
<p>But aside from that, stating that only those 4 universities in California are well-known in Europe is too much of an overstatement. I would actually expect Alexandre who's worked in Europe could drop some token on this issue.</p>
<p>No, the OP wanted to know the fame of those 3 unis and nothing else. I Just added that togheter with Stanford they were probably the 4 more famous ones. The Op after one of my posts stated that was what he wanted to hear.</p>
<p>I do understand your point but obviously do not agree and will state for the last time fame does not equal quality.</p>
<p>I have also seen the University of Phoenix adds on the internet. I bet that due to the overexposure of that add I in Continental Europe have heard of the university which I probably would not have. I guess most people in the academic world would agree that the University of Arizona in Tucson and Arizona State are better Uni's that Uni of Phoenix but now some dude in Brisbane may have heard about it while not the other 2. Does this make the other unis any worse? I do not believe it does. </p>
<p>There is a whole industry out there called advertising with a lot of well paid MBAs and Marketing people who try to expose a product to the most people. People may know a brand of soap better than another because they had a cool add on TV or radio this does not mean that it cleans the best. There may be another product made by a poor company that can not afford expensive TV slots that cleans 50% better.</p>
<p>I also think you overstate the quantity of universities in the USA people in Europe have heard of. If you are not researching a place to go for uni in the states or work in the sector you will probably have only heard of the top ones such as Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, MIT and etc.... Or other unis that for some reason are more overexposed than others such as NYU, UCLA, USC, BU and etc.... Most people have not heard of great ones such as Caltech, Carnegie Mellon, University of Chicago & Brown. There are even many posts by Americans in this forum that state that they have told people they study in Tufts or Uni of Chicago and received blank stares back. Maybe the name of a university does not help such as the confusion caused by Miami University in Ohio. Maybe many Cal unis are not known in Europe due to the fact that many Europeans do not have to look as far as the USA to get a greate education when closer to home are Oxbridge, Imperial, UCL, All the gran escoles in France, Uni of Edinburgh, Trinity College Dublin, LSE and etc.... These schools to a large extent are heard of more often because they are closer and more people would be familiar with them than places such as Caltech.</p>
<p>Regarding my suiability to give my opinion on which ones are famous or not is at the same level as yours. The OP did not ask for only the opinion of people who are blond , 27 year olds, that were born on the 29th of August after 2pm and that have spent a week in Barcelona. In that case I would not be entitled to comment but that was not the case. Every single person here has their background and what they have heard, learned and observed about the fame of the California Universities. I am only giving my opinion as asked for by the OP as much as you can give yours about Caltech, UCLA, Golden Gate Uni, University of Redlands, UCLA, UCSD, UCI, UCR, UCD, UCM, UCSF, San Diego State and etc... fame in Asia. What I am giving is my over all asesment of qualitative work I have carried out on the subject among different groups of people in several European countries.</p>
<p>There are two reasons here why I object to your definition of fame in relation to your response to the OP's question. You claim that fame does not equal quality. No one is contesting that statement, as matter of fact, in case you are not too familiar with US colleges, Caltech and UCSF are not any lesser than Stanford, and generally perceived to be better than Berkeley (for undergraduate level) in terms of quality. Nevertheless, I never argued that Caltech/UCSF is just as famous as Stanford/Berkeley. But look, when we are to inform a high school student in a forum like CC, it makes sense to attach some touch on academic value to the college we perceive/recommend to be well-known, again, especially when the OP mentioned the word prestige in his original question. As I said, claiming University of Phoenix business school is as famous as Stanford GSB, Berkeley's Haas or UCLA's Anderson for example, will be superficial. </p>
<p>Secondly, when you said that only Stanford, Cal, UCLA and USC are well-known in Europe, how many percentage of the population in your mind when you're filtering the Californian schools? 5%, 10%, or 15%? Perhaps less than 5% of the population in the States know what investment banking is, let alone knowing that it's one of the most lucrative jobs in the US. Are you saying that this particular job is not well-known? perhaps being a janitor, which is much more of a common type, is a better job to be mentioned when we are answering high schoolers' questions like: "what are the popular jobs in the States?"</p>
<p>The OP said that what he wanted to hear was answeared by my response. Maybe it was not what you wanted to hear!!! I am not going to repeat this point again and come up with other alla Freakonomics comparisons of quality not always being at the same level as fame.</p>
<p>How exacly is UCSF undergraduate program supposed to be better than Berkley's when it's a graduate school? It only has a handfull of undergraduates.</p>
<p>I am very well aquainted with the USA system of education. My Grandfather had a Harvard MBA, My uncle has a Berkeley JD, another uncle is a proffessor at Uni of Colorado: Boulder, 3 of my cousins and their father went to Stanford, I have been accepted to unis in the country, I have many friends in the region who are/were in UCSD, Cal State, UCB, UCLA, Notre Dame, Purdue, NYU, University of Miami, Columbia, Lousiana State and etc...</p>
<p>If you have any other points you would like to discuss about what I said please tell me them. I am not going to continue druming on about the same thing over and over again. Those who read the forum can make their minds up on whos right or they can do a Foucault and believe there are no correct discourses but only different one's competing for power.</p>
<p>In Mexico they are regarded as follows:
1. UCB/UCLA (both well known and prestigious but probably considered on the same level.)
2. USC (not really that well known other probably for american football.)</p>
<p>It's kind of funny how some countries see school prestige, my roommate from costa rica tells me that in his country the two most well known schools are harvard & purdue...people have asked him why he turned down purdue for penn lol. My other roommate from the DR tells me that in his country it's harvard and BC...</p>
<p>
[quote]
The OP said that what he wanted to hear was answeared by my response. Maybe it was not what you wanted to hear!!!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As I said, unless now the OP re-states his assertion of your view, I tend to believe that his unfamiliarity with your defining well-known/popularity as advertisement contest has led him to say yes to your answer. I haven't seen him agreeing with your post again since your talking about popularity of a college as a part of OC/Dawson Creek TV shows. If he really meant the word 'prestige' in his original question, that would be evidence to your misguidance.</p>
<p>
[quote]
How exacly is UCSF undergraduate program supposed to be better than Berkley's when it's a graduate school? It only has a handfull of undergraduates
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't make any undergraduate level comparison here. All I was saying is that hearing someone graduated from UCSF would command more 'wow' than from Berkeley, unless we know specifically that he/she comes from its graduate schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you have any other points you would like to discuss about what I said please tell me them. I am not going to continue druming on about the same thing over and over again. Those who read the forum can make their minds up on whos right or they can do a Foucault and believe there are no correct discourses but only different one's competing for power
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If you understand my previous posts, you would've seen that I am referring to different aspects of my reasonings while you keep giving the same reply again and again. And I have no idea what kind of power you're talking about? I would not waste my time just to get recognition for bashing your post. I am just worried that high schoolers who want to find jobs in Europe abandon excellent/recognized colleges in California such as Caltech, UCSF, Pomona, and Harvey Mudd because of your false impression that these colleges are not recognized in Europe.</p>
<p>1: You clearly stated that: "No one is contesting that statement, as matter of fact, in case you are not too familiar with US colleges, Caltech and UCSF are not any lesser than Stanford, and generally perceived to be better than Berkeley (for undergraduate level) in terms of quality" You made a distinction between undergraduate level and postgraduate (you even put it into brackets like these). Maybe you made a mistake? But you said UCSF is better perceived for undergraduate than Berkeley.</p>
<p>2: The power comment was a joke!!!! It's a comment regarding a famous French Philosopher called Michel Foucault whose theory is that society is dominated by different discourses (ideas usually backed by an institution/s) fighting to become the main one.</p>
<p>3: Once again I believe you put way to much value into how many California Universities are known in Europe. I would bet most people in this region (excluding academics) have never heard of any of the Claremont Colleges. If any one out there has a good amount of money and time and for some reason really cares about this debate please carry out a peace of social research, I would say a Quantitive one would be better, and post the results and methodology up. Lol.. It works the other way around as well I would say a good chunk of the people in the USA have neverheard of ETH Zurich. </p>
<p>4: "Not necessarily, Sorbonne, being more well-known to average Americans, has attached academics prestige to its name. When employers are in doubt they will choose the safe bet. In this case, graduates from Sorbonne, the more well-known, would have a better chance to get a job than graduates from Ecole Normale in the States." Dosen't this comment you made to another person on this forum kinda state what I have been saying for a long time???????????????</p>
<p>Ps: Just out of curiosity. Do you live in Europe?</p>
<p>
[quote]
You made a distinction between undergraduate level and postgraduate (you even put it into brackets like these). Maybe you made a mistake? But you said UCSF is better perceived for undergraduate than Berkeley
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If you have constructive purposes, you should be able to understand from my following post that explained the ambiguity. But let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I was comparing the colleges' prestige in the undergraduate level, and claimed that UCSF grads would command more 'wow'. Are you going to antagonize this statement?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Once again I believe you put way to much value into how many California Universities are known in Europe. I would bet most people in this region (excluding academics) have never heard of any of the Claremont Colleges. If any one out there has a good amount of money and time and for some reason really cares about this debate please carry out a peace of social research, I would say a Quantitive one would be better, and post the results and methodology up
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Since you are the one saying that you can represent Mr. John Smyth in Europe, I think the burden of gathering statistics will be on your shoulder, not mine.</p>
<p>
[quote]
." Dosen't this comment you made to another person on this forum kinda state what I have been saying for a long time???????????????
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You seemingly refuse to understand or perhaps don't understand my posts completely. I clearly said that if, a big if, USC is more well-known than let's say UCSF or Caltech in Europe, it doesn't come from USC's academic prestige. Are you saying the employers in Europe, let's say SAP or Allianz, do not recognize Caltech, such that USC grads have the advantage over Caltech grads in Germany? It is simply ridiculous. To quote an analogy similar to what I've posted earlier, I would say something like: Harvard grads will have better chance than Caltech grads to get a job in Germany.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Ps: Just out of curiosity. Do you live in Europe?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, I don't, but I've met numerous Europeans and I don't think you can represent any of them.</p>
<p>PS: May I know your highest education level?</p>
<p>
[quote]
The power comment was a joke!!!! It's a comment regarding a famous French Philosopher called Michel Foucault whose theory is that society is dominated by different discourses (ideas usually backed by an institution/s) fighting to become the main one
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Please write a better English translation next time so that I know when you are trying to make a joke.</p>
<p>1: Regarding the Joke I guess you have never studied Philosophy. Am I right?? If it goes over your head do not worry it is a very hard concept to understand. </p>
<p>2: Regarding UCSF I am just stating that you were wrong on this comparison but let's not dwell on small mistakes.</p>
<p>3: Regarding this statement : " I clearly said that if, a big if, USC is more well-known than let's say UCSF or Caltech in Europe, it doesn't come from USC's academic prestige. " You are defending what I have been saying since you decided that what I said was invalid. So basically you claim I am right???</p>
<p>4: Regarding representing the Smyths in Europe look at my surname!!!Lol. Would you not also have the burden of showing proof about how I am wrong as you have disagread with what I said? So far all your proof is what exacly? I have told you about the people who I have contacted about the reputations of those unis and my background. What exacly is your proof that I am so wrong about these unis fame in Europe????</p>
<p>5: I guess as an European (citizen of one of its countries and permanet resident in another and having lived in others) I can represent the view of the Unis in Europe more than you can. Am I correct???? I never claimed I knew the reputations of the 3 unis mentioned in Asia (which I guess is where you live by previous posts). So by your theory as I have meet many Asians I am an expert on the area and therefore know exacly what is what? </p>
<p>5: Regarding my level of education I am a university graduate BA (Honours) who will begin graduate work next year in the UK. One of the 5 uni's I was accepted to study in is Cambridge (where Stephen Hawkins is a professor).</p>
<p>PS: English translation of what exacly? Pick up one of his book's and check out how they were translated. You will see the word Discourse over and over again.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Regarding the Joke I guess you have never studied Philosophy. Am I right?? If it goes over your head do not worry it is a very hard concept to understand
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm more concerned about expressing myself clearly than to confuse people by incoherent posts.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Regarding this statement : " I clearly said that if, a big if, USC is more well-known than let's say UCSF or Caltech in Europe, it doesn't come from USC's academic prestige. " You are defending what I have been saying since you decided that what I said was invalid. So basically you claim I am right???
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What I'm trying to say is that you should understand what the OP really asked in his original question. I believe that he wanted to know the popularity of a school based mostly on its academic merit and not its superficial advertisement on TV. When a college is already recognized highly by the academia and most employers, it is normally sufficient to qualify that college to be well-known; objection to that will only indicate that he/she is neither in top cream students' environment nor in professional world.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I guess as an European (citizen of one of its countries and permanet resident in another and having lived in others) I can represent the view of the Unis in Europe more than you can. Am I correct???? I never claimed I knew the reputations of the 3 unis mentioned in Asia (which I guess is where you live by previous posts). So by your theory as I have meet many Asians I am an expert on the area and therefore know exacly what is what?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Evaluating your post, you don't seem to have done any sufficient research data (other than perhaps watching Dawson Creek and discussing this series with your friends) to support your statement. Furthermore, I had many European friends when I was in college, and the perception that they gave was really different from what you're telling me. Based on their academic achievements that got them admitted to my college (and my grad school) in the first place, I would rather believe them than someone who tried to look smart but ended up with disorganized posts in this forum. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Regarding my level of education I am a university graduate BA (Honours) who will begin graduate work next year in the UK. One of the 5 uni's I was accepted to study in is Cambridge (where Stephen Hawkins is a professor).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I would really be surprised if Cambridge accepts someone who couldn't even spell Stephen Hawking correctly.</p>
<p>
[quote]
PS: English translation of what exacly? Pick up one of his book's and check out how they were translated. You will see the word Discourse over and over again
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You don't get it, do you? I was not asking from which language that quote was translated at all. Let me be frank with you, it's already difficult to understand your post due to your lacking English skill, please don't make it worse by having any allegory.</p>