Forget the Ivies. Why not Penn State?

Parent Cafe
61

<p>Consolation: You may have acknowledged this but some top kids actually want to go to schools like PSU. Like being at the top of the heap. Like big schools. Like sports and a high-spirited atmosphere. Like a specific program that PSU is strong in (too numerous to mention). And know that they can find great opportunities if they put their mind to it. </p>

<p>My s decided against some top LACs and privates where the cost was a bit higher than PSU but manageable (with scholarships). He decided a small school was not for him. PSU was the best of the large schools he got into. No feeling bad here. Only when folks bash the school based on their own personal requirements and opinions - and diminish its value and offerings. Makes THEM feel good about THEIR “superior” choice I guess.</p>

<p>I hear plenty bad fit stories out there…and they range across a wide spectrum of schools. Small schools were NOT a good fit in our situation (and I wont’ go into why since it sounds like bashing and is unique only to my son’s preferences). The OP will learn more about their own personal situation after the offers come in and visits are made. Bottom line, we all want to avoid those “I hate this place” calls…</p>

62

<p>I would think that since Op’s D has already applied to about a half dozen of these "elite’ schools, that he would have done his due diligence as to why would he sell out over $400 in application, testing and profile fees. </p>

<p>If he has not done is due diligence to know what his $$ is paying for outside of name recognition has he his D given any concrete reason as to why she wants to attend one of these schools? </p>

<p>If you believe that you have a perfectly good State U and it is not worth paying the extra $ should your D be accepted to an “elite” school, why did you not tell her upfront?</p>

<p>I would think that it would be very disingenuous to not have the $$ talk and run the numbers through the FA calculator before an application was even filled out. Did you ask the FA offices at the schools in question to give you an “early read” or a “ball park estimate?”</p>

<p>While I am not telling any parent how to spend their $$ or raise their kid, I would think that at this juncture, one would think that the conversation was if Op’s D got in that he would try to work it out. </p>

<p>If he has done is due diligence and found that these schools were financially out of reach, then why set D up by letting her apply and knowing that you are only willing to pay for state U?</p>

63

<p>I think “financially out of reach” parameters literally changed overnight for a lot of people - depends on your age and a lot of other factors. September/October dreams have turned to February/March realities. Many had a list generated, applied, saw what has happened, hoped it might turn around, and now…well, the whole world is falling apart. </p>

<p>Plainsman is an intelligent consumer, weighing his options. No one should judge his wish to perhaps have his child attend an elite college. It depends on how it was presented to Plainschild. With Pumpkingirl, it was presented as a world of possibilities, not a world of promises and certainties. We said to her, let’s see how the offers shake out. You can’t get something if you don’t try. </p>

<p>I had been laid off when my daughter applied to a great private school 7 years ago. We could not have afforded it if I had not gotten a job in the months between application and acceptance. I did not use my unemployment as an excuse for her not to apply. There was a chance I would get a job and I wanted what I thought was best for my child. Not only did I get a job, I got it in less than 5 weeks from the time I was laid off, and then I banked 40 weeks of severance. </p>

<p>Had she not applied, my daughter would have missed the wonderful experience she has had for the last 7 years. I always look back on that decision and it reinforces our “Why not?” attitude.</p>

<p>I don’t think Plainsman was setting his daughter up. Pumpkingirl is intelligently considering UMCP against all other options. She feels it’s the right thing to do.</p>

64

<p>Sometimes I really wonder whether people can read.</p>

<p>Plainsman asked “why would anyone choose those schools over Penn State.” I listed some factors that COULD give a student that reason.</p>

<p>I also said VERY CLEARLY that there are reasons why an individual student would prefer Penn State to the schools he listed.</p>

<p>Then I get all the usual flack. As I said, I doubted that HE wanted a real answer. I certainly know that others didn’t want one.</p>

65

<p>Consolation: I did want a real answer and received several. </p>

<p>Pumpkin65: Thank you for your excellent post. I share your exact perspective. It’s all about possibilities not promises and certainties. If you only reach for the sure thing you’re imposing limits on yourself. </p>

<p>Toneranger: Congrats to your son.</p>

66

<p>consolation - perhaps toning it down a bit would work. Responding with “so that if your kid doesn’t get in or you can not or choose not to pay for it, you don’t have to feel bad.” is a bit strong I’d say…and insulting to the OP as well as to any of us who went through a similar decision process in the past. </p>

<p>plainsman: All the best to you. Sounds like you have a terrific daughter.</p>

67

<p>People need to stop playing the “I’m a name, not a number” card. I’m at a large public school, and only three of my classes have been larger than 40 people since I’ve been there. I’m in a 5 person class this semester! </p>

<p>If you really work hard, you WILL make a name for yourself in a department at a large school. I think worrying about being “a number” in a large place just shows insecurity and a fear of crowds; it shouldn’t be considered a fault of the school that there are many students.</p>

68

<ol>
<li> A few years ago, a good friend had children simultaneously at Duke and Schreyer/Penn State – sisters one year apart. Sort of like a controlled experiment. The Penn State kid generally liked it (except . . . see below), had a great time, had good internships and found an OK job after graduation. But the educational experiences of the two students were barely comparable. The Duke kid worked her butt off, was constantly being challenged, grew intellectually a lot, was encouraged to be much more ambitious. The Penn State kid pretty much coasted through her first two years, and might just as well have been majoring in sorority, with no bad effect on her grades. She got more serious later, but it was a combination of circumstances and her own maturation. Nothing in the environment told her that she had to do that. And from the standpoint of rigor/sophistication, nothing in the Penn State student’s curriculum (in political science) matched anything in the Duke student’s curriculum (in economics).</li>
</ol>

<p>In short, Penn State was fine, a good experience overall, but this particular pair of kids was not a strong argument for Schreyer being in the mix with the Ivies or their equivalents. (Of course, there was a reason one of them wound up at Duke, and the other at Penn State, in the first place. But in terms of grades, scores, interests, and of course genetics they were pretty equivalent.)</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Penn State is really not very popular at my children’s large urban public high school, the principal academic magnet for the City of Philadelphia. Most of the strongest students aspire to go to Penn (if they can’t get into Harvard), and surprisingly few of them look to Schreyer as their next option. (Some do, but it’s usually 6-8 kids out of a class of 500+.) Both Temple and Pitt are as or more popular as public destinations for strong students. Pitt has a good honors college, too, and the kids understand how to get the best out of Temple (which gets close to 100 kids/year from this school). The word on Penn State is that it is full of partying suburban kids, and is boring for kids who are used to being in a big city. Also, it feels much whiter than Temple or Pitt. (Not that there aren’t plenty of students of color, but they are comparatively fewer, and way more suburban. The OP may find this attractive.)</p></li>
<li><p>The Penn State girl I discussed above had a shocking, horrible experience with her sorority, one that I had trouble believing. Towards the end of her sophomore year, her father was publicly accused of a crime. She was shunned by her sorority sisters, and ultimately felt that she had to withdraw from the sorority. Until that point, the sorority had absolutely been the center of her world; she loved it. It was an unbelievable betrayal; I can’t imagine what those girls were thinking, given that this kid had nothing to do with her father’s crime. (It was technical white collar stuff, and actually quite an aggressive, outrageous prosecution. The centerpiece of the case against him were actions that none of his peers considered unusual or illegal at all.) After a few months of tears, it all wound up being for the best, because the girl transferred her focus to her studies, and found some more reliable friends. But I was sure left with a bad taste in my mouth. Penn State is a big place, and has lots of different kinds of people, but I wouldn’t want to go to college with people like that.</p></li>
</ol>

69

<p>I guess all we really have is anecdotal experiences in comparing schools.
JHS, your stories are interesting, of course, but not fully reflective of the wide range of student experiences at PSU.<br>
Because PSU is so big, the quality of experience is going to differ based on the student and the program. Stronger programs include Business and Engineering. The honors programs make both choices better. I understand that Liberal Arts programs can be weaker.
My son’s classes (he is in Schreyer) have NOT been easy. He is far from coasting. Most of the classes are small and the work is demanding. His best bud in Engineering, is in a similar situation. OTOH, he has friends who are majoring in easy subjects, partying a LOT and coasting. Yeah, it happens, even in the honors college.
Regarding the sorority story, that’s heart breaking to hear about. Students can be so cruel. You will find pockets like that at any big school. Glad she turned it around and made it out OK. My son is in a fraternity and is having a very positive experience.</p>

70

<p>toneranger, I have always heard great things about engineering at Penn State, and I know many strong partisans of the program there, so what you say doesn’t surprise me.</p>

<p>Re the sorority, I want to make clear that I agree with you – lots of different people, lots of other options, and after all this was one group of girls at one time. My friend’s daughter had had nothing but positive experiences with her sorority before that – she is a cute, smart, outgoing person who has been popular since she was born, so why wouldn’t that be true? – and never dreamed that her sisters would turn on her until they did. I raise the point only because clearly this group of girls at Penn State thought it was OK to act like that, and that is completely outside my personal frame of reference.</p>

71

<p>I have a friend with 6 kids including a set of twins. One went to Penn State, the other went to Columbia. Talk about a controlled experiment!! Both girls but not identical twins, but their high school stats were similar with the exception that the Columbia gal had higher SATs. The Penn Stater loved, loved, loved her college years. Graduated with a business major and landed a terrific job in NYC before she was out of school. Had great grades and the type of college experience we all wish for our kids. The one who went to Columbia did not do well there, hated it there, and is still not finished with college, having taken a leave of absence and is currently working part time at little above minimum wage and is a lost soul. That college was just not the right match for her, or she just was not ready for college. Who knows why this happened? </p>

<p>Statistically, the top private colleges tend to have much, much higher graduation rates and retention rates than the public unis, so one can venture that the chances of things working out are higher at those schools. But there are kids who do flourish in all environment, some who are not going to do well anywhere because of issues that they have and some who would do well in certain environments and not others. </p>

<p>My son is at a state university, but in a small department and the individual attention he is getting far exceeeds what my older one got at a more prestigious, smaller private school. So a lot factors come into play. However, I can say, that many kids at the larger state schools that I know have had problems getting courses they needed to graduate because of the way registration is done. A goodly number of them needed to take an extra term for that reason, far more than those who did the same at the smaller private schools. I will say that none of my kids were ever locked out of a class at their private colleges, nor were H and I, and it happens routinely at many of the large state schools. Also something I really love about my son’s LAC is the attention is gets from the PROFESSORS who teach the courses there. The classes are small, and he is getting the knowledge from those who love their field and give the kids so much attention. Nothing like the large lecture hall classes with recitations held with grad students. He is only a freshman and knows a number of the faculty very well. They have the kids over for dinner, spend extra time with them and really draw them into the subject matter. We are truly over the moon with the educational experience he is getting. I always liked the idea of LACs but the experience our son is currently getting from one exceeds all expectation. I have to say it is worth the extra money.</p>

72

<p>My son got into a few honors programs at state schools – one of the biggest selling points from the colleges has been “priority registration.” I didn’t get at first how important this is (apparently) but cptofthhouse’s post illustrates that. </p>

<p>At U of AL they say (almost in awe): “you register with the football players!!!”</p>

73

<p>I also see a huge difference between Swarthmore/Wesleyan/Brown/Amherst and Penn State. It’s like the game they used to play on Sesame Street-- “One of these things is not like the others…”</p>

<p>You seem to have almost a love/hate relationship with “elite” colleges, and are once again resorting to generalizations. If I was going to describe the student body at some of these places, I wouldn’t be talking about ‘ritzy law firms’ and ‘the yachting crowd’ (sheesh) so much as students who are intellectually curious, altruistic, and liberal-minded. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t let expectations on aid/finances color your opinion at least until you know what you’re offered. You might be very pleasantly surprised.</p>

74

<p>Why would anyone want to go to Penn State?</p>

75

<p>I have a kid graduating from Penn State this year, who transferred into State College as a result of changing majors. My kid agrees that there is a LOT of partying and drinking at PSU. The campus lives and breathes both football and THON. Also, my kid has found that some of the advisors are burned out and do see students generally as numbers. Getting to see one of the preprofessional advisors was very difficult, and the advice given was contrary to the advice received elsewhere. (As it turned out, the advisor’s advice was, in fact, wrong.) Advisors have forgotten things that they promised. Fortunately my kid retained emails which had promised that certain credits would transfer, since an issue arose a year after transferring. My kid was not notified of important cut-off dates within his program. In other words, the students must be mature and manage their own education aggressively. There are bandwidth restrictions on Internet access, which will keep your kid from playing WOW or downloading music all night long.</p>

<p>IMO the dorms are old and awful (including the dorms where the honors students reside, where my kid lived last year). I was unhappy to see a $50 “lounge fee” on my bill, for the lounges in the dorm! Why they wouldn’t put this into the housing cost is beyond me! </p>

<p>On the other hand, my kid has had access to an amazing assortment of visiting lecturers and entertainers, and has encountered a wonderful network of helpful alumni who have provided internship and employment opportunities. (One of my coworkers was at a football game, saw a student with a t-shirt with a particular engineering major on it, interviewed the kid right there at the game and offered the kid a job – there is strong alumni support for the school!)</p>

<p>By persistence, my kid has gotten to know several professors in his department as well as his Dean, was invited to be a TA in numerous classes, and has been granted upperclassman scholarships by his department. Getting great reference letters for a professional program was not difficult, and the Dean even called a professional program on my kid’s behalf. The wide selection of classes has been wonderful, and there are countless intriguing choices every semester. Classes in his major have not been too large. The campus is very well-maintained and is attractive. The number of available activities is staggering. The little college town of State College that is within walking distance of the campus has lots of stores, restaurants, etc. to appeal to college-age kids. </p>

<p>PSU’s cost is, however, not cheap even for in-state residents when compared to the cost of many other resident costs for flagship universities. His tuition, room and board is over $12K per semester, which will alter depending on housing choices, food plans, etc. The OSS cost is painfully high.</p>

76

<p>I should note that there is a saying among accountants that " Liers figure, and figures lie." Any student in statistics will tell you that being number 1 in the items that were noted by the original poster is not necessarily spectacular or even proof that Penn State is better than any ivy. Don’t forget, Penn State has at least five times or more the population of most ivys! More people usually translate to greater number ( in total) of successful alumni). The key is “what did the average alumni accomplish?” Secondly, “How did the top 10% of the graduates do in terms of jobs, lifelong satisfaction, earnings etc.?”</p>

<p>Moreover, the contacts that folks make at a top notch ivy are probably MUCH better that that of Penn State. Lets face it, you are not going to see “Trump like kids” at a state school!</p>

<p>In addition, as noted above, certain jobs require a top notch pedigree with a school that has a lot of cache. Finally, as noted above the ivy schools are giving a LOT of good aid,which didn’t occur before.</p>

<p>However, with all that said above, almost no school is worth 100K in undergraduate debt. I would be especially circumspect of sending a kid to a second tier private school ( a school whose prestige is below that of the ivys) over that of a school akin to Penn State unless that school had programs that couldn’t be gotten at a school like Penn State. Thus, I would pick Penn State over schools akin to Tufts, Wesleyen, etc. UNLESS the large size of the school would be too intimidating for my kid…However, that is solely my opinion</p>

77

<p>"The key is “what did the average alumni accomplish?” "</p>

<p>I don’t look at it that way.
I think the key is: what would YOU be able to accomplish. given your particular interests and abilities, if you attend this university vs. some other. The unique YOU may not mirror the 'average alumni" particularly. Your fate need not mirror theirs either.</p>

<p>If many other people from there have gone down a path you’re interested in, then, if your capabilities permit, you might be able to do it too. Even if a smaller % of your other alumni are doing likewise.</p>

<p>YOU are not an “average”.</p>

<p>Don’t penalize an institution merely for being diverse.</p>

78

<p>taxguy: I agree and disagree with what you wrote (#76). I disagree with the implications of your statement “you are not going to see ‘Trump like kids’ at a state school.” It depends on the state school. U of Virginia? Michigan? Berkeley? You’re dead wrong. Perhaps not Penn State, but, then again, based on what I’ve seen and heard from Donald Trump and his offspring, I don’t want my kids rubbing shoulders with “Trump like kids.” What a bunch of snobs! I went to graduate school with the daughter of one of the owners of a Major League Baseball team. A billionaire. What a totally stuck up b*tch! I sat next to her in class the first week, and it was more than I could stand. I eagerly changed my seat. Values are more important than being around “Trump like kids” unless your values are economic oriented. And, by the way, Ms. Billionaire was attending a state university for graduate school and it wasn’t Virigina, Michigan, or Berkeley.</p>

<p>However, I do agree that a strong flagship state university like Penn State is a much better investment than an LAC below the Top 10, certainly below the Top 20. I have degrees from both public and private universities, and my flagship state U degrees have carried more weight in the job market and MORE RECOGNITION NATIONALLY than my private school degree which has a strictly New York-New Jersey rep. </p>

<p>With a Penn State degree, a young person can apply for a job in any of the 50 states and his/her degree will be recognized and even praised. </p>

<p>I work for one of the largest and best known corporations in America. Of the Top 12 executives in the company - millions of dollars per year each - three received either their undergraduate or graduate degrees from Penn State, another earned his degree from a historically black university most white posters on this board probably have never heard of. Only one was educated exclusively at Harvard, and that person is the least likely to rise to CEO one day.</p>

<p>Why not Penn State?</p>

79

<p>Plainsman- there you go again. I suppose the “stuck up b–ch” was from NJ??? My kid went to school with the son of a MLB team owner and the kid was the nicest, most down to earth kid in the school. He won all the “good citizen” awards. He refused to let the college counselors play the money/family card at ALL.<br>
The CEO of my company went to LSU. (also a large, public company). We all have these stories. It is not particularly relevant to the choice we and our kids make about which school or type of school will best serve a particular kid. A Penn State degree is certainly recognized. So is a degree from Ohio State or Texas A&M. They are all fine schools with some attributes not found at LACs or even Ivys. You can’t make the jump to saying that for every student it is a superior choice to pick the state university because the degree will serve one better.</p>

80

<p>MomofWildChild: Your continued immaturity is no surprise, and neither is your inability to accurately read my post. Good for your son, but, as usual, you missed the point entirely.</p>