@GMTplus7 For some reason I don’t think the ZBT brothers thought they was protesting the invasion of Cambodia.
:)>-
If UF can identify (most likely due to other ZBT brothers stepping forward) the ones responsible for "“causing physical or other harm, obscene behavior, public intoxication, theft and property damage”, that will be the bases for punishment. But…I guess we will have to wait and see…
To be followed … Pizzagirl! To be followed!
“Did many do this, or only one or two or three? Did the other members of the fraternity try to restrain them and/or prevent them from doing it? Did they actively target the veterans, or were they just happy to do this to whoever was there? And so on.”
As Hillary finally said in exasperation when she was questioned about the death of the ambassador, and needs to be repeated here
“WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?”
If this was done by another easily identifiable group with a troubled past, would the same questions be asked?
This kind of incidents, involving fraternity members, keep on happening. The only difference is now images of this kind of behavior go viral.
Its time for national organizations or colleges to decide if they want to allow this “culture” of misbehavior to continue.
It is disgraceful to target nuns, college professors, garbage collectors, or pizza delivery agents.
"As Hillary finally said in exasperation when she was questioned about the death of the ambassador, and needs to be repeated here
“WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?”
It makes a huge difference. Consider these scenarios:
Of course it makes a difference what the particulars were. Duh.
And “troubled past” doesn’t apply here. I know it’s hard for you to understand, but the SAE’s at Oklahoma and the Phi Psis at UVA (or whatever) really have nothing to do with the ZBT’s at Florida, any more than the tennis team at Oklahoma and the lacrosse team at UVA have nothing to do with the basketball team at Florida. For people who bitch that Greeks are “conformist,” you all seem to lump them all together in one big pot.
“Its time for national organizations or colleges to decide if they want to allow this “culture” of misbehavior to continue”
Hmmm. Let’s see. It occurs and the national organization steps in and says - nope, ixnay, not our culture. Why do you keep acting as though they are turning their backs? I think some of you are deliberately clueless as to how much a national organization can “control” the acts of individual people on a campus. It’s rather like holding the president of the university responsible for the actions of all the employees on that campus. Yes, the president has the ultimate oversight, but he’s not “responsible” if the art history professor or the cafeteria chef goes and does something stupid.
No, it is not hard to understand that there are fraternities that might have a majority of their members who have not adopted the egregious behavior of the their “Greek brothers” who … make the news. I think we all get that part!
What is harder to understand why all the purportedly “clean” fraternities NOT join the voices that call for the expulsion of the chapters that have repeatedly crossed the lines and the outright ban of organizations that have multiple deaths on their scorecard?
Would it not be nice if the Greek life came closer to the romantic and perhaps nostalgic views of the many “vicariously living” adults?
Would a good start not be with the incidents that are clear and beyond the “need for a full investigation?” Nobody is helped by unfounded accusations or blanket indictments, but nobody is helped by the usual wall of silence, attempts to minimize the reports through “oh, that what kids do” or “it is not only us.”
The way I look at it, it was pretty bad a decade ago, and it is simply gotten a lot worse. Cornell’s and CC’s Luficer11287 is probably still smiling!
“What is harder to understand why all the purportedly “clean” fraternities NOT join the voices that call for the expulsion of the chapters that have repeatedly crossed the lines and the outright ban of organizations that have multiple deaths on their scorecard?”
Who says they aren’t? It just doesn’t make the news. Didn’t I say upthread my son explicitly posted it and said they should be punished to the full extent of the law - they were “no brothers of his”? What else is he supposed to do? He’s not Florida law enforcement or an official at the university.
With the SAE/Oklahoma n-word scandal, the SAE’s at NU also posted something repudiating it and saying that those values did not mirror their values and they were ashamed on their behalf and so on and so forth. What else are they supposed to do, though? When the Duke lax scandal broke (before it was revealed to be false), did you want other colleges’ lax teams to condemn Duke’s lax team? You’re just not getting that these affiliations are really only loose in real life.
“Vicariously living”? Would you care to clarify that comment?
Trust me, the only time I discuss my sorority affiliation is on CC. It’s just not something I think about on a daily basis aside from CC discussions.
A peaceful protest regarding the Freddy Gray death in Baltimore was marred by the violent behavior of a minority. I don’t see rational people rushing to declare that everyone in the crowd participated, or that all protesters are guilty of violence and that because many protests have been known to turn violent over the years that protesting should be banned.
I know that a few people here favor a “kill them all and let the Lord sort them out” course of action when it comes to Greek organizations, but I don’t think that is the way to proceed in this case or in any other.
Facts matter.
Exactly. We have seen bad behavior in the marching band hazing case - do we abolish all college marching bands? We have seen bad behavior by members of various college football, basketball teams, etc, - do we eliminate all college sports? We have had reprehensible conduct by some police officers - does that mean that every member of that community’s police force is a racist thug? I could keep going - pedophile priests, teachers who have affairs with their students, etc. But why would the actions of a few bad individuals taint the entire group? Too much generalizing, too much extrapolating from a small sample to a much large popuation. It’s just lazy thinking.
"Vicariously living"? Would you care to clarify that comment?<<<
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Does it need to be! Aren’t the terms clear enough? But in case a clarification is needed, note this is not about the debating parents here but about all the parents who support the cost of their children choices to be Greek and defend the organizations even when the behavior is indefensible.
I don’t think those things are all analogous. If there is a pattern of police brutality in a given force, that has to be investigated pretty thoroughly in my view. The whole, “Oh, I don’t really know those people; I just work with them every day,” excuse doesn’t fly. Eventually you start to wonder if people are intentionally turning a blind eye to abuse, as in the case at Penn State, and (at least for me) it becomes hard to give people the benefit of the doubt after they more or less refuse to take any action to deal with a problem involving their own employees and agents.
With a fraternity, I think it’s a little different. Based on comments that I have seen here it sounds like different chapters of a Greek organization are loosely affiliated at most; there isn’t any top-down oversight like what you would find in a police department, an athletic department of a college, or an individual diocese. If that’s the case it’s not reasonable or fair to cast aspersions on everyone who is in a fraternity since they can’t monitor each other and aren’t responsible for supervising each other just because they all happen to have the same symbol painted on their hoodies.
So, yeah, I’d hold a police department, a church, or a college more accountable for the actions of its personnel than I would hold a fraternity at one college accountable for the actions of another chapter at another college.
Who says they aren't? It just doesn't make the news. Didn't I say upthread my son explicitly posted it and said they should be punished to the full extent of the law - they were "no brothers of his"? What else is he supposed to do? He's not Florida law enforcem<<<
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Yes, you did say that. But how about the plenty of previous incidents discussed here in this past decade? How do you feel about the frat in the Gordie Bailey case? The ones in Cornell? How about SAE in general?
Just as you can predict MY position on each of those cases, I can count on the repetitive support of Greeks in general from a faction of parents. I might miss the nuances but not the overall tone and contents. Hence, my previous comments about business as usual.
Exactly. We have seen bad behavior in the marching band hazing case - do we abolish all college marching bands? We have seen bad behavior by members of various college football, basketball teams, etc, - do we eliminate all college sports? <<<
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Thank you for ILLUSTRATING my previous points about the litany of denials, excuses, and other … non-sensical defenses. So much for lazy thinking!
Predictable as the atomic clock!
For the nth time, this is not about banning ALL the feats. This will NEVER happen with the current crop of academic leaders our colleges have. It is about containing the growth of the cancer and decapitating the forces that are NOT changing their repetitive egregious behavior.
Is there anyone here in support of hazing that involves putting students in dangerous situations and / or drinking to excess? Anyone? Bueller?
Xiggi, as someone who goes to OU and whose sorority found the behaviors/ thought processes of SAE appalling, what do you propose myself, my chapter, the university, and the national organization do to stem such behaviors? Keep in mind that I only vaguely knew one guy in SAE and didn’t think of him as a racist until the video leaked.
I’m just rolling my eyes.
" It is about containing the growth of the cancer and decapitating the forces that are NOT changing their repetitive egregious behavior"
Proud parent of a ZBT.
Just to be completely clear, I find the behavior of these students who insulted and harassed the group of veterans reprehensible. They should be held accountable. Until more details come out - I will not make a judgement about the entire ZBT chapter at that university. If it comes to light that a majority were involved - then shut the chapter down - absolutely.
What I won’t do is take this incident and use it to tarnish the reputation of other ZBT chapters nationwide. There is no correlation between the actions of several members of one chapter and the thousands of other ZBT brothers and alumni. I don’t see any point in punishing the masses for the actions of a few.