Free Market Education and Unschooling/Distance Ed

<p>I know that this topic touches on a very controversial subject. But I think that it needs to be brought up.</p>

<p>Among the points:</p>

<p>1) There are intrinsic differences between cognitive ability and learning style in students, and a "one-size-fits-all" approach clearly leaves many students behind, frustrated, or bored. Not to mention that many teachers actively discourage students from reading their own books in class.
2) Students do not take responsibility for their own education. They frequently attribute their successes and failures to their schools and their teachers, and this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that discourages them from seeking further resources. Moreover, students are often prone to make the "post hoc, ergo procter hoc" fallacy when they praise a class [when in reality, it may have been the student's studying, independent of what was covered in lecture]. Not to mention that lectures usually only repeat textbook material.
3) Online lectures from the best professors, released to the general public, rather than lectures from bad professors. You may argue that "well, students ask questions in class", but perhaps they would gain more if they asked questions on online forums like <a href="http://www.physicsforums.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.physicsforums.com&lt;/a>, asked the teacher in-person [teachers could still be trained, but more so to answering questions, rather than teaching], or discussed the material with fellow students. Moreover, online lectures allow students to rewind when they fall behind.
4) Some people don't even learn from lectures. Again, it's a matter of learning style. It's commonly known in math/science classes that "doing the stuff" is what counts, not passively listening to the material.
5) Many obstacles against self-studying come because there are few readily available resources for it. Very few students check out textbooks to study on their own [I know this since I have pretty much free access to whatever textbooks I need at my library]. </p>

<p>Moreover, many students do not have much academic independence (psychologically). They do not go to other university websites on their own initiative [there is A LOT of very useful information at other university websites - and so many varieties to select from]. I've also noticed that Princeton Review, Kaplan, and Schaum's Outline prep books often cover the material very clearly and can substitute for the role of the teacher [simplified, yes, but the teacher is supposed to simplify the content in the textbook and make it more accessible]. </p>

<p>As for the free market, I may argue that since most people have similar learning styles [I'm speaking from the viewpoint of someone with Asperger's Syndrome, so I see most people as very similar to each other, while I see myself as quite different], if they are entitled to an online education and have the ability to choose between styles that best suit their learning, then the technologies that students feel the "most comfortable with" will naturally be selected for [and will prosper]. Now, the problem is, of course, maintaining standards. As for that, exams administered by a central agency can do the job. As for those whose learning styles are very different from those of others, this may be more of a challenge. What if programs catering to their learning styles become "weeded out?" Moreover, they may tend to be the most different, so what works for others may not work for them. What I can say is that school is doing little good for them already. Moreover, perhaps they could petition to work with trained psychologists who are very familiar with student learning [wtih governmental funds]. </p>

<p>Moreover, it appears that even if evolution is taught in schools, apparently, most Americans still do not believe in it. I am no adherent to intelligent design, my favorite authors are E.O. Wilson, Steven Pinker, Richard Dawkins, and Daniel Dennett, but I also realize that students are apparently learning little from schools. If the layman's understanding of biology is assumed to be nothing [as biology writers often suspect], and most laymen who read popular science books are still well above average [since most Americans barely read at all], apparently, people are not expected to retain much from high school biology. </p>

<p>What of the social and economic inequalities between people? A considerable amount of research on tracking clearly shows that students tracked in the lower schools still gain virtually nothing [state tests demand little, and they still fail to meet them => this shows how little they are learning]. For those lowest in income, they can get school vouchers to choose the best education program for themselves. There is a pressing question for those of low IQ - do they know what is best for themselves?</p>

<p>Finally, the cliche argument, "the kids need real-life socialization." Socialization early in life is, of course, important, and it may still be good to keep educational systems in for the first years. But humans are naturally social creatures and will seek out others to socialize with, regardless of whether their socialization was forced in the classroom or not. Remember that public schooling is a recent phenomenon [actually only dating back to the turn of the 19th-20th centuries], and that people still had social skills before this period.</p>

<p>There are some better arguments, though. For example, this may exacerbate parental influence on children. But I think that in most cases at least, parents know better than schools what is best for their children. The problem is - parents already have so much influence over their children (though this is primarily unconscious => read "The Nurture Assumption" and "No Two Alike"). Personality traits have a 0.5 correlation to genetic factors, IQ 0.8. And of course, parents live in a place that decides the peer group of the children. And for intelligent students trapped under unfortunate parents, a hotline could be set up. ;-) [and the government could force the parents to allow the students access to the internet, to textbooks, to online materials].</p>

<p>Online education may not even be necessary [but exams will be]. Some students may be fine learning everything from the Internet. Of course, skills for information discretion at the Internet need to be taught, but those are the skills that are the most useful in this info-driven society. </p>

<p>What of textbooks? A lot of prep guides have content very similar to the actual textbooks [MANY people who self-study APs get 5's by ONLY reading the prep guides] and are far cheaper than them. Prep guides may be informal, but so is classroom discussion. Competition will naturally lower the prices among them [and of course, there will be different books catered to different audiences]. Again, vouchers for the poorest. </p>

<p>There may be problems though. What of those who truly need the guidance of another due to psychological dispositions? [and face to face contact is often far more successful for them]. Hmm? I'm not advocating for public school abolition, but for those that continue to exist, they should be revamped. Moreover, teachers are generally not that personal especially after middle school, and the students already get little. </p>

<p>Finally, I think the arguments can apply to college as well (even more so). Online discussion boards can substitute for philosophical in-class discussions [and provide much more diversity in thought]. Moderators can be as strict as teachers. Math/science is always done best by oneself, of course. Universities can stay for labs and research. </p>

<p>It is ACTIVE self-directed learning that stays in the memory, not PASSIVE learning. Meanwhile, one can easily sit in through class, wasting hour after hour after hour after hour.</p>

<h1>Finally, highest accolades to MIT for its OCW. BTW, there are excellent websites on other subjects at other sites. "site:.edu" is an excellent keyword for Google searches. </h1>

<p>Here are a few links that I like: [note, I know that many of these people have political positions that many of you may disagree with - and their political positions are clear on their other posts. I disagree with many of their political positions too, but I think that they have summed up the argument on education the best]:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.parapundit.com/archives/003869.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.parapundit.com/archives/003869.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2006/09/taking-education-online.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2006/09/taking-education-online.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>A good refutation of the "asking questions in class argument":</p>

<p>
[quote]
Putatively mature though they may be, lots of college students don't like to engage in in-class discussions. The larger the class, the more truth there is to that. Online discussions and virtual classrooms are different. Students can speak with relative anonymity, the time constraints and discomforts of a sterile setting are removed, and ideas can be expounded upon or more fully defended. Certainly some will thrive in this environment, anyway.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's clear that people dislike in-class discussions, especially question-asking in lectures. The high membership in this Facebook group is testimony: [it's global; just my Facebook link says it as Washington]
<a href="http://washington.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2216613701%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://washington.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2216613701&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>==
<a href="http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2007/01/relationship-or-lack-thereof-between.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2007/01/relationship-or-lack-thereof-between.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Charles Murray's 3-part take:
<a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009531%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009531&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009535%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009535&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009541%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009541&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>==</p>

<p>I did not read the entire post because I am easily bored by lectures. ;-) But the reference to Schaums Outlines certainly grabbed my attention! I remember struggling in Calc 3 and resorting to buying a Schaum's outline. The many example problems and additional problem sets at the end helped. But alas, I never did get the concept of the line integral.</p>

<p>I do disagree with your statement that lectures usually repeat material in the text. This is rarely the case in lit courses and usually not the case in most social science or arts courses. In math, sciences and engineering the lectures do more closely follow the text material but supplement it with demos, example problems, and practical applications. All these things help students better understand the material presented in the text and accomodate different learning styles.</p>

<p>If many students are bored in the classroom one need to look no further than the instructor standing at the front of the class.</p>

<p>If the instructor is boring in class, s/he will be boring on videotape.</p>

<p>There is something to be said for a communal experience, whether or not one speaks up. It's like watching a comedy by yourself vs. watching it in a roomful of other moveigoers, or listening to music on your Ipod vs. going to a concert. </p>

<p>My S decided not to take the Fast-Paced math sequence at CTY because he wanted that communal experience. He had it when he attended a summer math camp. Lectures were the least part of it.</p>

<p>not quite sure the point of your post -- unschooling/homeschooling/online education are all viable alternatives used by hundreds of people each year. If you are advocating such -- great, you are one of many who prefer that type of learning. If you are just letting people know about the option -- a shorter post and more links would have been better.</p>

<p>personally, I have taken a number of online college courses and hated them, didn't learn anything and found it far easier to do the bare minimum. the classes didn't engage me or inspire me in anyway and I dreaded doing the work. I prefer actual classes, even if the professor is boring. </p>

<p>my son is homeschooled and has done numerous online classes in all subjects -- plus independent studying. He much, much, much prefers an in-class discussion group, learns more and is really looking forward to college. in the past few years we have gradually replaced all online class formats with dual enrollment college classes and his aptitude for the subjects and enjoyment of them has soared. just my two cents.</p>

<p>As for the point of my post - I was actually trying to look for a decent argument that could go against my argument for homeschooling/unschooling [and allowing governmental vouchers for it => one of the main problems is that it costs a lot of money to homeschool oneself with distance courses. One could totally cut distance courses and self-study everything - as unschooling argues for - but very few will find that viable].</p>

<p>Another thing: of course students need to discuss things with other people. There aren't a lot of forums readily available for such purposes. Also, do discussion groups have to be in class? Perhaps there could be a sort of "meeting" that students could make over a particular subject [and certainly don't restrict that meeting to whether the students take the course or not!]</p>

<p>
[quote]
If the instructor is boring in class, s/he will be boring on videotape.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think that one of my points was that people could record the best-quality lectures and then distribute them online [instead of having to record lectures by each and every instructor]. With the best lectures available, far far fewer people would have to spend the time and effort to lecture. </p>

<p>
[quote]
not quite sure the point of your post -- unschooling/homeschooling/online education are all viable alternatives used by hundreds of people each year.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, it is quite possible in the US to be able to use such alternatives (but only a very small percentage of the fortunate are able to do so). There are a few points that I wanted to make though.</p>

<p>1) Extending this idea to college level courses [colleges have no required attendance policy, but instructors frequently only cover material in class that they don't post online => and look down on students who skip]. Moreover, it is very difficult to get credit for courses that one self-studies in college. As for online college courses => lectures could be recorded by the best instructors and then distributed throughout many different online courses. </p>

<p>Also, there is not much enthusiasm in the creation of online forums for college classes. Distance education opportunities for college level courses are also very rare. They exist only for the lowest level courses [Stanford EPGY is an exception, but it does not allow enrollment for college-age students].</p>

<p>2) I think another thing I was trying to get at - is the possible massive overhaul of the public education system. As in, perhaps taxpayers are spending so much money on virtually nothing [for the majority of students]. While I'm not a "taxes are bad" libertarian, I think that the money can be redirected somewhere else.</p>

<p>The problem is that the No Child Left Behind and politicians blatantly fail to realize that it's the teaching methods that are failing the students [and the failure to acknowledge variability in learning styles in the institution]. </p>

<p>3) Societal attitudes. But this is the most difficult to change, if anything. A lot of people are obsessive over "finding the right school" for their children. Homeschooling is an option that very few consider. </p>

<p>I've tried to talk my parents into homeschooling myself - but they told me that they didn't have enough time to homeschool me. This is the wrong impression of homeschooling. There is the risk that I could overindulge in computer games, but as long as they put pressure on me to make a certain amount of progress every day [a similar amount as they would have had I went to public school], it would have reminded me to continue on my schoolwork.</p>

<p>One of the main problems, is the lack of governmental vouchers for online courses. EPGY has (finally!) provided an online high school, but that's still only high school. And - it costs so much money.</p>

<p>ok -- got your point. You are advocating setting up a different type of educational structure.</p>

<p>personally -- I would not be for it. a great deal of what you advocate is already available. There are tons of online college classes in just about every subject -- if a student is interested in online, college level classes -- they are available. My son took an upper level Harvard class in a topic he is passionate about. The lecturer was great, the class was a regular Harvard undergraduate class with about 10 students attending online. Every time he watched the lecture his comment was "I so wish I could be there".</p>

<p>you can listen to podcast lectures from some of the best schools -- Berkeley, Colorado College to name a few. There are entire online universities -- from Regis to Western Governors University. Online high school classes number in the thousands -- and here in Colorado, we have more than 4 charter schools where all instruction is 100% online for grades K-12. </p>

<p>if you are interested in learning subject taught by the best of the best -- check out the teaching company. fantastic lectures -- we still prefer to attend classes. <a href="http://www.teach12.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.teach12.com&lt;/a> many of these are available at the library. clep tests can give you credit, as can AP or Dante tests.</p>

<p>There is much to be said for the interaction that takes place in the classroom.</p>

<p>I do think that there are alot of positives to online education -- and it is a viable alternative. But a complete overhaul? I think online education will continue to grow, but it will never be the preferred method of instruction. It has too many limits -- both technology, cost and the preferences of students and parents.</p>

<p>Wow, upper-level harvard courses? <em>looks</em>
<a href="http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2006-07/courses/math.jsp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2006-07/courses/math.jsp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Sadly, there's no real analysis, physical chemistry, abstract algebra, quantum mechanics, electromagnetism, or any of those other subjects. I'm really trying to look for an online course for those [or merely a way to test out of them => I actually much prefer self-studying to online courses]. </p>

<p>Another thing though => is that our community is overwhelmingly populated with advantaged students. I think a question viable to ask is => is such education viable for students who are not at the top - who are far below? This becomes more problematic in that the parents of such students often can not be trusted.</p>

<p>==
Yeah, class discussions can be very helpful [though they are not encouraged in many class settings => where the lecture overwhelmingly dominates the class]. Another problem with class interaction is that many students hate it when students raise questions in class:</p>

<p><a href="http://washington.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2216613701%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://washington.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2216613701&lt;/a> for example</p>

<h1>A solution? Some classes don't really need discussions. But there could be classes specifically designed for interaction, rather than for lecture. There are few classes specifically tagged as for discussion though, and in those classes, the lecture dominates the overall class scene. </h1>

<p>Wow...
<a href="http://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/ccp/gis/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/ccp/gis/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Again though, lack of above-mentioned courses.</p>

<p>simfish...
These are well thought out arguments for someone your age. Most of us here are adults with grown or growing children.
I have studied the rise of modern compulsory education and it largely developed in the context of nationalism and work leaving the home and farm for the factory and office. Schools are based upon a nineteenth century factory model of organization.
The main barrier change in my opinion is that school has become a secular religion. People just "believe" in it and can't imagine other ways of going about human development, at least for the many.
You might enjoy reading "Deschooling Society" by Ivan Illich.</p>

<p>Thanks for the response, danas. Another point of my post was to try to see if there were like-minded people who had my arguments in mind [who were not hardcore libertarians]. And I also wanted resources to prove my ability through self-study (though apparently, only after a long lecture of my own, since I am used to encountering resistance over self-studying)- in a sense, I also desire opportunities to say, "prove my skill" when classes won't do it for me. I think that CC was a nice place since people are very progressive [compared to average] here. </p>

<p>I have a tendency to make posts that don't apparently have a point in them though. The point is to trigger discussion, however it comes up. I really want to find a discussion group somewhere - only that I can't find one. Many times I come out as an advocate for physicsforums.com or artofproblemsolving.com, but what of alternatives in say, the social sciences or philosophy from a scientific viewpoint? Or of the very notion of Consilience? And those are only two forums. AoPS, in particular, has extremely talented students and I end up asking easy questions [from their viewpoint] there. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Deschooling-Society-Open-Forum-Illich/dp/0714508799/sr=8-1/qid=1171647827/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-3688592-1940709?ie=UTF8&s=books%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/Deschooling-Society-Open-Forum-Illich/dp/0714508799/sr=8-1/qid=1171647827/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-3688592-1940709?ie=UTF8&s=books&lt;/a> looks really interesting. I think that a comprehensive book on the failings of the school system should address psychology and the variability in learning styles that people have [that, combined with a historical analysis of the original "purpose" of schooling, would do a death blow to education as it is].</p>

<p>And wow, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Illich%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Illich&lt;/a> provides a nice synopsis of his arguments.</p>

<p>===
Another thing: it's often thought that professors in grad schools don't care much of grades as much as they do of research and recommendations. In this, I kind of am trying to get to grad school (even with a mediocre GPA related to my abnormal learning style) by trying to hook up with a professor who can recognize talent outside of class.</p>

<p>A later argument of Illich's was that schools work by convincing people that there is a shortage of opportunities to learn. Thus people try to get kids into the "best" pre-schools, move to expensive communities for "better" schools, demand more AP classes and higher paid teachers, worry that their kids are "tracked" right, etc.
Of course the reality is that there is no shortage of the means for and opportunities for learning!
My first 2 kids went without school or classes of any kind and on to colleges they chose to attend. The biggest expense was overdue fees at the Chicago Public Library! That and an internet connection. No online courses they felt worthwhile enough to try out.</p>

<p>danas -- I know exactly what you mean by overdue library fees!!!!!</p>

<p>you are correct -- there is no lack of opportunities to learn. My oldest really began to crave discussion (with someone other than family and friends) as he got older and we did have to search out opportunities to facilitate his learning through a discussion mode -- but we found tons of venues, from book clubs at the library to lectures at the local college.</p>