Freshman Class Selection

Colleges and Universities A-Z Vanderbilt University
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@bernie12 , she is still undecided as to her future career direction. She was admitted to engineering school. I guess you always have to be affilated with a school at Vandy? She made a deal with herself when she picked Vandy instead of MIT full pay to give premed a try. Growing up, she has been mathathelete, who does well in sciences even though she doesn’t have any passion for research. She loves econ though. She is going to at least minor in econ. She is also interested in social justice, may do a minor on public policy.

Yes, that is her goal is to make impact, do good and be successful in her career too.

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@SincererLove No, I comment on a lot of boards with regards to STEM and highered and went to Emory as a STEM major.he made a reasonable (actually great choice) choice (MIT full pay? Pass. As amazing and rigorous as MIT is for STEM, full pay at an elite or really any OOS or private institution is a big “ouch!” no matter which one it is).

Also, remember that pre-med is really just a set of requirements that has of course evolved into something crazier lol. Outside of those (including the shadowing and stuff) she can explore whatever. Compared to engineering pre-health requirements are relatively “basic” (especially in comparison to what a lot engineering and pre-graduate STEM students at elite schools do) and honestly if she is doing well in her engineering major and whatever pre-med pre-reqs, she could honestly decide that pre-health is right for her later in her career at VU and go through the process, but if she is so talented, I fear what the primary academic identifier as “pre-med”(it is a loaded label that comes with an interesting community and a different set of pressures) may do to her willingness to take some risks and avoid peer pressure that says not to. She can likely do whatever she wants pre-health or not. I have actually seen a lot of folks who were not STEM majors who were kind of keeping pre-med “open” took many of the pre-health pre-reqs and some really good upper division biology and chemistry courses and then maybe like late sophomore year decided they would commit to it (as opposed to "I feel like I must do these courses and MUST make an A grade…they had other plans initially). It was kind of nice for them because they didn’t have that label or tag sort of influencing their decisions at the start of college. They just did whatever they liked and sprinkled in some pre-med. They ended up at Duke for medical school. Your daughter can have fun there and also be a “nerd” (you say she liked things like math, what if, after she takes some more math courses, she does Putnam competition there? She can indulge all sides of her talents and personality) if she wants, while also completing some of the pre-health requirements.

I just get a little worried about very talented students in STEM or otherwise claiming or identifying themselves with a “need perfection” pre-professional track early on. I have seen where in some cases these super talented people basically sell themselves a little short on what they wanted to accomplish academically, intellectually, w/e because they felt they would not fit in (as in: “I don’t see too many people with this label taking this sort of course or doing this sort of EC or co-curricular, so maybe I should just do what most of them do”), was taking too big a risk and many other things.

I like this video and how this guy kind of calls the process out (also apparently he admits that there is no easy solution and that he is just blowing the whistle): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCfALR_AxLc

A very interesting brilliant dude who made his way to medical school after doing such cool things in more hardcore sciences. And had cool experiences after his training…and he is right about biomedicine. As a person trying to desperately finish a masters thesis in biophysical chemistry, I wish I would have exposed myself to a more math based curriculum in biology (I majored in chem and biol) as a UG lol (I only took a physical biology course). I would imagine a “nerd” considering medicine would appreciate a more interdisciplinary training whether it is through coursework or experiences in one or several departments. It would be illuminating if more exposed themselves to this type of training (Hell Harvard Med now has a program targeting students who had and want more of that training as an MD. If your daughter ends up going that route, perhaps she will have a chance to see MIT again through that program which is a collaboration between the 2 via the HST program: https://hms.harvard.edu/departments/admissions/applying/requirements-admission :wink: )

Make sure that your daughter “lets herself be even greater” in whatever. Avoid letting labels brand her or tie her down. Trust me, no one likes to admit, but it sometimes can.

(A student I tutored in organic chemistry this past year used to constantly say “let me be great”…and he did really well)

I expect to see true greatness from your daughter and similar students in the near future in whatever they pursue :slight_smile:

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I have never understood why a kid works hard in HS and places out of classes with AP credits to repeat the class again? College is about learning, (not re-learning) Vanderbilt is an amazing University offering thousands of courses each semester. There must be something (My son took History of Country Music his first semester) that will be more interesting to her as a person then retaking Chem and Physics. Just my 2 cents… My son graduated last year from the Engineering School with a Computer Engineering and Math Degree. Used his AP credits to place out of a full year of Math and anything else he could. Found interesting courses in History, Politics and Music that he loved.

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@3rdsontocollege Depends which AP credit. Placing out of the calc sequence and placing out of gen chem are entirely different stories. AP Calculus BC prepares you fully for multi, while AP chem is a heavily watered down version of gen chem. Taking Calc 1 and 2 after Calc BC is entirely review, but gen chem is not a review of AP chemistry. If credit was fully granted for AP chem, students would be entirely unprepared for following chem courses.

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My son had great experiences outside of his professional goals at Vandy as well. We tried to sort of lay off of him so he could breath as we know his professional grad school life would turn out to be fully absorbing and demanding soon enough. He was also a Chancellor’s Scholar and turned down full price at other fine schools. One of his favorite experiences was a course in Film Scores at the Vandy Blair School of Music. He also took the College Scholars seminar courses which were fantastic for liberal arts lovers especially but included two science courses for him.

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The exxageration continues That is just not true. The literature does not support the following assertion:

" If credit was fully granted for AP chem, students would be entirely unprepared for following chem courses."

Neither do the tons of top tier schools and Ivy leagues with MORE rigorous gen. chem sequences than VU and many other schools which offer not only accelerated gen chem like options but options for students to take higher level courses other than organic primarily because the ability to handle say, inorganic, physical chemistry, or analytical chemistry tracks well with prior exposure to chemistry (which can be AP) AND math background (chem 125 at Yale, the freshman organic mixes traditional organic with some serious pchem concepts for example…Yale has a similar gen. chem sequence to other elites.
Harvard has no real general chemistry sequence at all. Are its students with a strong background just entirely unprepared for other chem courses because H doesn’t offer a gen. chem for them to pass through?) So a student with AP chem and some calc. credits or a very strong math background will often be fine going to other courses. They would not offer the option to place out if they didn’t think they did not have a decent threshold of students who should.

It really just depends on the background. For many, general chemistry before advanced or intermediate courses will offer little advantage. And if freshman organic is on the table, it may not correlate at all. I have seen people with no chemistry AP credit with high ambition take very rigorous organic sequences as freshmen and still perform fine and this is because ochem is very different (assuming a more problem solving oriented curriculum/instruction). Some data also shows that even top performers from general chemistry do not have sound logic (okay, many/most just completely forget and this must be retaught in ochem) when draw lewis structures (let us not talk about resonance :frowning: ) at the beginning of organic chemistry which suggests that the way structure is taught in general chemistry courses is often not associated with retention (many students may memorize some shapes and rules because the lewis structures in gen. chem are often not tied to reactivity. Instead students are told to “draw this in 3-d, tell its geometry, and whether it is polar”) or a readiness to link structure to reactivity.

Let us please avoid generalizing. And let us not put general chemistry of all things on a pedestal as some great launch pad into a chemistry major or career. There are reasons that tons of schools have been fiddling with reform or full-blown overhaul of gen. chem curricula to make it more relevant and related to upper division courses. General chemistry is meant to be a service course for pre-healths and engineers. Of course at an elite it will often go into a little more detail in some areas than AP, but these areas to most with AP credit (especially of 5 on the new one) are usually accessible. The amount of content overlap is still high.

VU offers credit for 1601 and 1602 for 5s…so it thinks there is a lot of overlap with both semesters or that for most who are being served by the course (many who may only take organic) that the content that does not overlap is something many can do without.

Sorry for the rant…but I think this myth of the importance and rigor of gen. chem really anywhere (except some schools)…must go. It is more so a fake type of rigor in most cases. At most good schools, you add a little extra content(baby quantum and baby MO theory) and speed it up. That is all. It is a very “basic” type of rigor increase that most people with high exposure can handle if they keep up. The course is over-rated in so many ways.

@3rdsontocollege : Colleges encourage rigorous curricula and good performance, professional school opportunities have some requirements that they want to see the students get As in. That is a huge difference. Like most medical schools can care less about the rigor of the science instructors or courses a student took as long as they made good grades and a solid MCAT(as a good standardized test taker might even if the courses they took weren’t all that special). The incentive structure is just different. Completing a more challenging curriculum than what is required is not put at a premium except for some graduate programs (PhD and masters level) which do take the level of courses into account beyond the minimum expectations. In college, challenging yourself above the norm means putting those opps at risk as well as cutting into socializing. The incentive structure can breed a rather anti-intellectual approach to course selection and elite schools are all but immune. And yes, some students will often admit that they worked super hard in HS and want to kind of just chill or take it relatively easy in college and enjoy the “culture” (as the media depicts it).

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@SincererLove I think this is a much more reasonable schedule! Even with a 5’s on AP exams, my daughters still had to study uncountable hours, go to office hours, help sessions, etc and still had difficulty getting A’s, and even B’s in many of their pre-med courses. Some people poo-poo Vandy’s grade deflation and course rigor, however I can attest it is for real, and if she can make it through, she will shine in Med School. That has been our experience (so far) that the struggle is worth it because the Vanderbilt students are so very well prepared for the intense rigor of medical school courses.

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@moonpie It is rigorous, just not more rigorous than other schools in similar and higher tiers and students at those places complain less…no one poos poos it. I for one am just saying it and certain courses are being exaggerated as something unusual for a school at its level (gen. chem is standardized there. And you can literally go online and stumble upon the course websites of other selective schools and compare it directly…it will be pretty similar and many of the other schools will have instructors for it that are naturally harder because most schools do not standardized multi-section courses). It just isn’t. It is generally pretty similar to most places at and just below its ranking (grading norms are on par with Cornell, Emory, Hopkins, and a couple of others I think, and VU is starting to pull out of that tier and is a little higher:http://www.gradeinflation.com/Vanderbilt.html these are per term GPAs so include freshmen. Imagine that graduating GPAs are higher, perhaps significantly. These trends pretty much follow other schools but are of course lower than some super elites). They are tough, but the scare tactics that discourage students from doing x,y, and z need to go. There is literally no reason a person with a good background should be afraid to take a few challenging courses at VU more than they should at Rice or Duke, or whatever selective private. There is also no evidence of a real grade deflation (princeton had it). There is evidence of standard grading in STEM courses though, so yes like most STEM majors you will have to study regardless of background at these schools, but that should be a given. People are acting surprised that this is the case and almost depicting, of all things, general chemistry as some unusually challenging service course. It is alright, but again I don’t know too many schools where it truly lives up to the reputation some students choose to give it (this reputation at selective privates and publics is well-documented). Many pf the course are large, boring, and run poorly in some cases (Stanford and Berkeley did an interesting study on their general chemistry sequences). But I do not observe large variations in the curriculum or level of exams given at most schools. It is one of those classes where if you have some preparation and keep up, you will generally do fine. The problem is usually the variation in background or lack of effort/under-estimating things (yes, folks with 4/5 are very prone to this and often receive B grades in general chemistry and some studies show very little difference between 4/5 performers in an actual general chemistry class as I would expect as you have “this is college so we won’t hold your hand as much”, faster pace, and perhaps a boredom/complacency with the material).

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@bernie12 I agree that it is similar to other rigorous academic schools, just not mid-tier or state schools. If your goal is to get the perfect GPA to increase your chance of getting into med school, those A’s will not come as easily. My only comparison is only with my girls, who took some courses (such as organic, and 1 semester of gen chem) at our largest state U, and EASILY got A’s in compressed summer courses, while the rest of the class struggled to get out with C’s, and the science classes at Vanderbilt required MUCH deeper understanding of material. I just think people (young adults) need to be prepared to make a B or C, and understand that it can affect med school admission chances later. Is a 4.0 at state Uni better than a 3.4 at Vanderbilt? Some say yes, some say no. But the pressure to dig yourself out of a low GPA hole from freshman year may not be worth it. Since the OP’s daughter hasn’t decided on a life career yet, it may not matter. It sounds like she’ a pretty smart young woman and will do very well! Good luck, @SincererLove to your daughter!! It truly was the greatest 4 years of my girls’ lives so far! My middle one has been asked to stay on and work on her research team at VU for the next year while she applies to medical school (she graduated in May : ) The opportunities are endless, the students and faculty are amazing. I’m a local mom, and got to see a lot of performances, football games, baseball games, and can truly say it is a wonderful environment for young people to “find” themselves.

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D wants to do the scheduling herself, as “you don’t know my backup classes for each one” I am unable to fly that Heliopter :wink: and I hope the school bus waits for her, else she will be missing that field trip :wink:

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@AnnieBot The poster mentioned that her daughter may go Pre-Med or Econ or CS. My Engineering Son used his Chem AP credits to place out of the Engineering Chem requirements. My statement had to do with repeating a course that she already had credit for when it may not even be necessary at all if she pursues Econ or CS.

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@moonpie : However that is kind of the beauty of SincererLove’s situation. They have a daughter that does not necessarily have or need to have pre-med central to their plans. I understand avoiding risk if you have pre-health tunnelvision and no other ideas, but their daughter pretty much sounds fine for that or anything else.

And yes, compared to mid-tier state schools, the courses (maybe minus a couple of chemistry courses where there are cases where the private may not be too much better than the state school depending on the instructor. Instead at the state school, you get nice curve support that you would not get at the competitive public or private school) will typically move slower, cover more standard material, etc. But my question is why are we comparing elite privates to mid-tier state schools? That seems like a buyer’s remorse thing where students were almost too confident coming in instead of having a “okay, this may be tough, better brace myself attitude”. I suppose I do not blame folks attending these places because they were paper perfect in HS and maybe even standardized test taking, but surely they must have heard of expectations in STEM.

Some of the biggest differences I have observed are say…in biology. Most top tier private and public schools, from what I have seen have a much heavier focus on chemical concepts and molecular genetics (and in a surprising number of cases, have a heavy microbiology/prokaryotic genetics component) because they have aligned their curricula with MCAT topics (VU looks like a weird mixture. The first semester has some heavy molec. cell and molecular genetics related concepts and the second semester is more akin to the curriculum seen at state schools, just more intense. Many other privates have veered away from a heavy emphasis of evolution and ecology concepts in the second semester for example, and pivot towards almost pure genetics and maybe some physiology thrown in. VU has the genetics component that isn’t common at state schools, but also has more ecology and evolution than normal. Can’t say I disagree with that design as many biology majors may completely avoid seeing the ecology or evol. concepts otherwise). Again, general chemistry usually just has more theory (molecular orbitals, quantum concepts than a normal state school general chemistry course which would only focus on standard math based concepts (stoichiometry, energetics, equilibria, titrations). Physics, even in trigonometry based courses where offered I also notice are a bit more challenging at competitive schools (professors may shamelessly put curveball questions or very mathematically tedious questions on p-sets or exams. Or worse, they may ask conceptual questions, something many taking physics are not as great at dealing with. Mid-tier state schools tend to stick to a predictable plug and chug).

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D is on waiting list for sociology, so she only has only 14 credits now. She contacted some professors and will hopefully do some research in the intersection of Econ and medicine. Looks very promising now!!

Thank you for all your feedback. May our kids have a great year!!

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Update: D had some tough moments during the semester when she didn’t do so well on some mid terms on Chem or Physics, or when she had to study from 8 am to 11 pm for one day during final week. She still goes to bed by 12 every night. Personally I think there are many kids studying harder than her. But she did well on the finals to make As on chem and physics…

She also has tons of ECs, including 3 leadership positions. She enjoys Vandy very well indeed!

Next semester she will take 16 hours… MV cal, Chem 2, sociology, Intro to programming, and Computer and Ethics. She jokingly said she might have a downward GPA trend in college now :wink: