From a Rural Area, Child accepted to Ivy & top LAC , how to choose without visiting

College Search & Selection
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I’m not a member of USNWR, so I don’t have access to that figure. I also don’t think USNWR publishes their methodology for calculating expected vs actual. If I instead compare Hamilton’s graduation rate to other LACs with similar selectivity, I get the following. Based on this summary, I’d say Hamilton is maybe 1% higher than expected, rather than 5%; but Hamilton does fine by this metric.

Median Graduation Rates over Past 3 Available Years for Highly Selective LACs with…
Under 12% Admit Rate + High ACT
Amherst/Bowdoin/Williams – 95%
Swarthmore – 94%
Pomona – 93%

12-20% admit rate + High ACT
Hamilton/Carleton/Mudd – 93%
Haverford – 92%
Davidson – 91%

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Thanks for all the responses. My daughter was able to get in touch with some of the schools and get more information. I have to say Hamilton was the most repsonsive , both in speed and detail by far. It does seem like most schools will only zoom or chat on the phone till 5 est, so my daughter hopefully has someone to sub the classes she is teaching one day this week so she can talk to the schools on th phone or zoom and not just emailing.

One of the reasons my child is struggling so much (and does lean on me for some of the answers) is that there is no support at the school for her decision. The guidance office only has information on in state schools and is really not supportive of kids applying outside. I graduated from a school in MA and I have offered to bring information to the guidance office and they refused it. The statement over and over again is why make your life hard and leave the state, it is so easy to stay and be debt free and get a job and buy a home and have a good life. Then my daughter won the top award our state has and the pressure from that committee to stay in state is strong. The winners in past years pictures are up and they are the Who’s who of the state so there are eyes on her choice (she almost backed out of the award, but it gave her a platform to express her concerns about cuts in programs that she cared about) .

My daughter feels bad when she has communicated or got hand written communication from AO’s that said that fought for her admission and they have gone into great detail about how her essay touched them(she had a one of kind essay, I am not just saying that as a parent, it was something that only one person could tell but connected her personally to a public story) . Since contacting the schools 2 have upped the aid and 2 wrote they are getting back to us tomorrow on aid and she did not even ask for more aid.

I think there are two factors that she keeps going back to. One is she went through high school with only a few close friends. She was fine with that because she was very focused on her studies. She also was respected as the top student. Many students did not have the same beleifs as my daughter and would not be friends socially but they respected her academic committment. I think she just wants to be careful to choose a college that off the bat 95% of the people will not be her friend socially. She does want 1,000 friends or a party life but just the chance to have more then the outsiders to be her friend group (she truly cares about the friends she had but the were friends out of being rejected by the majority). She was hoping college would be a fresh start to be herself and make friends. She has gone on the meet admitted student groups and most schools she has to choose from give her a clicky feel. The admissions officers say how welcoming everyone is and accepting but she is not sure she sees that. She was hoping to talk to people that come from our state to these schools but seems when she asked AO’s for contacts it was hard to find anyone. One college found one student. I know she is the only student to be admitted from our state at one college at least and two schools have admitted just 2 students from our state.

I also think she might question her intelligence since high school was not that much of a challenge. Her school had clear defintions of how to get an A. She found honors and AP classes easy. The guidance office said wait till she takes the ACT. There were of people in her older sibling’s grade that had 4.0’s and 18-19 on the ACT. The school annouced they would give the ACT to all students last year right before COVID hit. My child had not studied for it and amazon does not deliver in 2 days and our library had no books so she found a few practice tests online and took the ACT 3 days later and got a 35. .She said the STEM comps she had been in for years helped her be a fast test taker and it helped her on the ACT. She has already signed up for the ACT at a later date and it was still open for testing and she got another 35. The score gave her some confidence. I think she wants to pick a school that will have passionate teachers and a wide variety of classes since she has such a curiousity for learning. She is so exicted to move on from high school where classes are not allowed to cross over, like bringing up in depth science concepts in Psych clases or using statistics in science class. My daughter opened her school’s online grading which goes back to 3rd grade and she has never gotten less then a 100. I knew she always got an A, but she has never gotten a question wrong on any test since 3rd grade when they started showing grades. My daughter was not studying all the time either, she spends on average 6 hours a day on artwork, watching reality TV (she lives big brother ) and designing clothes. She knows college will not be the same, as high school but I think she fears that first B? she knows it will come but there is fear. She does not fear not graduating (she took 42 classes in high school and none were PE or “fluffy” so she was able to take at least 10 classes each year and every year at least 5 were STEM and 2 languages, so she had 10 finals each semester so she thinks even though college is harder 4 is doable).

So the last few days of talking to the schools I guess this is where she stands. Right now forgetting about the social aspects since I guess you really can’t tell until you go ?, she says she knows that Hamilton requirements for what she wants to study is the best match. They have more fleixibility within the major. There are concerns because it is the most unknown , and it seems like they have virtually no one from our state or region attending. Amherst has no minors so a double major in what she wants to do would be very hard because of the major requirements are rigid. Amherst does have the benefit of having Smith and Mt Holyoke so close and there are a few things she loved about both of those schools but I think she has decided against them both (Smith still is slightly in the running 5th choice right now), but going to Amherst would give her the option of still being able to particpate in 2 things that Amherst and Hamilton do not offer but Smith/Holyoke do. Wellesley which she had thought had some great opportunities in her major, just has been a let down since she has talked to more people. On top of the grade deflation and competition many feel, she got the feeling that students were unhappy with the online classes and grading and how it will change applying to grad school (all other schools did not have this feeling). Wellesely was also very strict on the 8 PE classes , I could not believe how rigid a college was about PE! My daughter worried more about the PE at their school then Organic chemistry. It was kind of sad because they had excellent aid (and the easiest office to work with) and such a good location but I do not think it will work. Columbia Has been very kind, The AO is super nice but the one thing my daughter wanted to see , which would be a real tour of a day in the life of a student, she wants to how big the dorms are, how long it takes to wait for an elevator and get to classes. She has gotten pictures and quick carefully editted videos but she just can’t get the sense of the size and location. She feels the pre-med might be too competetive (compared to Amherst , Smith, Hamilton all of which seem to support almost all pre-med students applications). If she was going to major in a languge or art history Columbia might be the choice but pre-med she thinks it is not the best fit. Everytime she goes to say no , she feels like should she give up the opportunity for 4 years in NYC at such a good school. Vassar never got back to us so it is off the table unless something very informative comes in to change her mind.

Hopefully the next few days gets us even more information from the schools. Then her fear is she will choose and come off the waitlist at one of the others. I kind of doubt the waitlst moves at any of them but just our luck it will and she will be choosing all over again.

I just wanted to add our city is really not that big, it really was a truck stop that kept growing. The reason my husband took that trip to upstate NY and Hamilton was discovered is we agreed that when we had both lived in upstate NY before in small villages of 3-5k people there was so much more to do then in our city. Our city was run by the same person for about 40 years and they just vetoed so much of what a city needs to try and keep it small. They just will not allow almost anything business or activity for kids so forget the arcades or Chuck e cheese or roller skaing or water parks or art classes, or summer camps. We still have the same small grocery stores, they will not allow Traders Joe’s Aldi, Sprouts, Whole Foods to come in even though our area needs grocery stores badly. I have had friends drive though and still think it is a truck stop town because it is just one main drag off the freeway and then houses. It is such an odd place to live and that is one reason my daughter would like to talk about where she is from when she gets to college because as someone that lived on the East Coast the first 25+ years of my life and I have been to 49 states , I never thought a place like this existed.

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After reading your post, Ruralcitymom, I understand where your daughter gets the ability to tell a compelling story. :sunglasses:

Hamilton says that their students come from 45 different states. Have they told you that yours is one of the 5 from which they don’t have any students?

Undergrads at any college spend most of their time on campus, adjusting to living away from home and getting to know their new friends. As appealing as living in or near a big city might be, life is likely to be intensely on campus at any college. There is no way of knowing how your daughter would adjust to such a life. The 24-hour city noise at a place like Columbia could drive someone from a rural area crazy. And then she’s stuck with a 4 year commitment there. One of my daughters lives near Wellesley, so I’ve been to that town many times. It’s pleasant, but ultimately as boring as any suburban town. And students aren’t routinely running into Boston.

Here’s my thought on the Hamilton location. Even though Hamilton is hours away from big cities, your daughter would be a lot closer to Boston and NY than she is now. She could certainly take a weekend trip to either on a long weekend or other break. In fact, I imagine that there are probably clubs at Hamilton that probably rent a bus and organize such trips to the “big city”. And Albany isn’t far, has a charm of it’s own, and has museums, music, and live theater? Just as important is the fact that she has her whole life ahead of her with plenty of time to experience city life. Perhaps in grad school.

One of the best things about Hamilton is its off-campus study programs. Two in particular caught my eye. They are programs run by Hamilton p in NYC and DC which combine internships with seminars and independent study. Both of these cities have major research facilities which relate to your daughters interest in neuroscience. If an internship could be set up via one of these programs, she could have a semester to sample that life-in-the-big-city experience while still an undergrad. Of course there are always opportunities for summer internships as well.

Just my 2 cents. All the best with your decision.

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It sounds like it’s narrowed down to Amherst and Hamilton. Both are excellent schools and it’s unlikely that the quality of the teaching or the abilities of students will be different. If they both have similarly attractive academic paths for your D, it just comes down to vibe, which is understandably very difficult to divine from afar.

The one thing I will say is that you (and any prospective student) should not judge the schools or the experience you will have there by the responsiveness of the admissions office. In an ideal world, they are warm and welcoming and responsive. But in reality, they are constantly evaluating their incoming class as decisions come in and working on the WL strategy. If this had been a normal year, each would have staged large accepted student events that would have facilitated decision-making in a far more efficient and effective way. This year (and last) have really messed this up. So while it’d be great if they all could produce quickly what you need to make a decision, that simply may not be able to happen. Remember too that in the part of the job that faces you, admissions folks are salespeople. This is hard – you need information!

It sounds like your D is going to be outside the dominant culture at either school. Maybe a smidgen more at Hamilton. But in either case, she will need to find her people – and she will. She doesn’t need to find people who are like her, but people she likes!

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For Columbia and Amherst, have your daughter look up ‘Day in the Life’ videos posted by random student bloggers: NOT the official ones. I found about 3-5 for each college just from a simple google search. It will give her an idea of the ins and outs of going to class, getting food etc. Even if the vlogger student is nothing like your daughter, at least it gives you an idea of the flow of campus life. I couldn’t find much for Hamilton except official videos.

Perhaps parents with students at these schools can get their kids to speak to your D? even via email to answer her questions? I am pretty sure there are current posters here with kids at Columbia, Hamilton, Vassar and Amherst?

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The phrase “reading tea leaves” comes to mind. You have a grab bag of tiny data points but not much context with which to evaluate them. Dinging Wellesley b/c students are unhappy with online courses? I don’t know students at any college that are happy with online courses- and only a few who are happy with how their academics have gone over the last year. Grad school admissions for all of these kids are going to be problematic not just b/c of grades going wonky, but all the internships that were cancelled. Similarly, ruling out Columbia b/c you don’t know down to the time it takes to get to classes what your day is like and a vague sense that it might be too competitive is a stretch. In terms of time to get to class, I am willing to bet that Columbia probably has the shortest times of all the colleges on the list! I do think that Columbia will be the most academically challenging- some of the Core classes are notorious! but not anything your daughter isn’t up to. Vassar not getting back to you looks pretty bad all right. It was the only school that did not court Collegekid2, and had the least impressive re-visit day of all the schools we went to (they are old-school New England, not into showy displays), yet it turned out to be a miraculously good experience for her. Hamilton not having 2 things that she would like is a reasonable metric- IF those 2 things are in her top 3 things that matter. The reality is that she won’t have the time to take advantage of all the opportunities available to her at any of these places.

Letting go of the weight of history and other peoples expectations- whether it’s the HS outsider experience, the HS attitude to going out of state, people having heard of the school (can we guess from your post that she does not envisage moving home after college?!), the AO’s that ‘fought’ for you student- is hard but seriously important. This is your daughter, charting her path.

Based on your posts, it sounds like Hamilton (b/c it ticks some boxes that are important to her) or Columbia (b/c she keeps not being willing to say no, and it is the one that is the biggest jump) have the inside track.

One rationale for choosing Columbia? it is the biggest jump, the biggest challenge, the deepest deep end. All of these schools will be a shock for a student who has never gotten less than a 100 on anything since 3rd grade and who has only lived in a narrow world. (can you tell that I am not the sort of person who eases into cold water?!). No time better in your whole life to do that than when you are young, full of energy and looking for adventure. Bonus: if it doesn’t go to plan, transferring to Hamilton (or Vassar!) from Columbia is a viable path (both will keep her application on file for a year- doesn’t guarantee a transfer acceptance, but it’s a strong head start).

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I’m so glad she has it down to the 2 schools that appear to be the best fit based on your posts (Hamilton and Amherst). My vote is Amherst - has aspects of both rural and urban and the 5 college consortium and all types of kids. Hamilton is more unknown (which matters to her).

I really would have her stop focusing on the counselors at her school…she has heard them, but doesn’t want to stay in your state - period. That decision has been made, Right? So don’t ask for more help or feedback from them. Forget the state school - she doesn’t want to go there.

PS. You said she doesn’t have her license yet. Please please have her get it this summer before going away. It’s important she goes off to school with it since it’s hard to find time to get it in school and you don’t want to kick the can on this. Make time this summer.

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I skimmed through this thread again and maybe I missed it but based on your child’s future goals it would seem the ability to do research as an UG would be a priority. Have you assessed this at all your choices? I know all the schools will say they have UG research and support but not all schools are equal. The LACs will say that they have an advantage because you don’t ‘compete’ with grads to do research and the Women’s college will say you don’t compete with Males that might be more prone to self advocate, etc.

Based on your list I’d say Columbia gives her the better opportunities for research.

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I’m not sure of the research opportunities at all of the LACs, but at Hamilton research represents an available part of the for-credit curriculum. For example, Neuroscience 198 provides 1/4 credit, and can be repeated, and the 1 credit senior project courses, 500 and 501, extend for a full academic year:

https://www.hamilton.edu/academics/departments/Courses-and-Requirements?dept=neuroscience

This site discusses additional research opportunities:

https://www.hamilton.edu/academics/departments/Research?dept=Neuroscience

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I will also underscore the priority given to research in neuroscience at Hamilton. As can be seen in the link below, research is not only available, but it seems to be the entire thrust of student preparation in their Neuroscience Department.

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Parent of D21 at Amherst College here :purple_heart:
These are all fine schools and you cannot go wrong. I will say this, the kid you send off to college, is not the same kid you get back-and that’s a good thing in my eyes. Amherst College with its open curriculum further allows them to stretch themselves in ways they never even thought about. They get to try lots of good things. I vote to join the herd #gomammoths!

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Regarding LACs and limited geographical representation for some regions of the country, this can be evident even at larger schools. Princeton, which offers a detailed map for the class of 2024, shows, for example, 2 students from Maine, 1 from Vermont, 2 from Wisconsin and none from North Dakota and Wyoming.

https://admission.princeton.edu/how-apply/admission-statistics

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[quote=“RuralCityMom, post:102, topic:3520607”]
One is she went through high school with only a few close friends. She was fine with that because she was very focused on her studies. She also was respected as the top student. [/quote]
Describes my own daughter ver well.

Can’t speak for other schools, but my daughter is very happy at Columbia U in that regard.

First - I think all of your potential schools are good choices, so your daughter should feel at ease that she is NOT going to make any BAD “life” decision! So it’s okay for her to trust her instincts based on wherever she feels she sees a good “fit” for her.

My daughter toured the country with me, expecting to walk through the gate of “that one” school where she would instantly know: THIS is it. In reality she ended up frustrated because she could see herself at any of these (good) schools, but NONE had called out to her the way it had happened to her friends and their “favorited” school.

So it became more a process of elimination. Fortunately, she was able to revisit schools at accepted-student days, and in the case of Barnard @ Columbia U, she decided to attend a lecture each in two of her AP subjects. She was reassured, that she was largely able to follow the lectures.

Like your daughter, she was very much looking for THE college experience, as far as having the room mate turning life-long friend. In reality, she had no bad experiences, but she made her real friends elsewhere at the University, or during a summer program in Europe - which THEN became her chosen room mates when they all joined up for a 3 or 4 person apartments after freshman year (first on-campus, now off-campus).

She was VERY reluctant about attending an Ivy-League school, or the “preppy” environment. She was going to apply herself, but didn’t want her college experience being ruined by 4 more grueling years (after coming out of high school), or by an ultra-competitive environment.

Fortunately, those fears were not warranted. A top student, having successfully completed A/P courses and accepted into a highly-selective school will likely do just fine. My daughter felt the pace was much more amicable after high-school, now that she was able to work out her own personal weekly schedule with a class, possibly two per day, that all were during “civilized” hours.
The undergraduate students are NOT competitive against each other, they do continue to keep up their work ethics and study habits. At worst, they compete with themselves :wink:
While she is always busy, studying at the library, writing papers on weekends, etc. - there is always time to go to a thrift shop in Greenwich Village, go to one of the music venues in Brooklyn, enjoy one of the art museums - or just take a nice long walk across Central Park or people-watch at Riverside Park.
As far as expenses, my daughter chose a minimal meal plan after Freshman year, enough to grab lunches at the University - but otherwise went grocery shopping a few times and month, but also would sometimes meet friends at one of the local restaurants. Those monthly food/restaurant expenses were consistently under $200/month (reimbursed through the 529 Plan) over the past 2 1/2 years. In addition I gifted her a Transit Pass as a “Graduation Present”, but that seldomly uses more than $20/month.
Naturally, I don’t know about money spent on the occasional concert, show or clothes - but her bank balance hasn’t suffered much, from what I have been able to observe.

I shared your concerns about “grade inflation” at High School and how crushing the first-ever "B"s in 12 years would be to her. In reality, she has continued to maintained her 4.0.

So - she has many good choices and options. If Columbia University and NYC happens to make the “inner circle”, then I’ll be happy to answer more specific details.

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At a campus size of 36 acres, this would appear to be the case.

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Amherst college is 1,000 acres, yet the physical campus is compact. My daughter always said she could wake up and be to a class in 10 minutes.

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I don’t think being asked if you’ve thought about being gay is indicative of a super “liberal” environment; at this age kids are curious about the world and will talk about everything & anything with their peers. From my experience at a diverse, urban high school, kids with more conservative habits didn’t stick out. They’d simply stay away from the alcohol and drugs, abstain from dating or date as they saw fit, while being just as socially integrated as anyone else. Live and let live. Personally, I think political conservatism is MUCH more of a contentious topic than personal conservatism on “liberal” campuses.

In response to OP, I would agree with all those suggesting Amherst is the best option. Academically rigorous but collaborative, great STEM and pre-med opportunities and huge prestige.

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After reading through the OP’s posts, Hamilton seems to be the best fit.

I agree that Columbia can be a wonderful change for someone with a rural background. It was for my own mother. She grew up on in an underpopulated area of New England that gradually became more suburban by the time she hit her 20’s, but it was still insular and easily more conservative than free-wheeling NYC. It didn’t matter. She absolutely loved Columbia - and she loved living in the big city. But she didn’t make this jump until graduate school, when she was old enough and mature enough to take on the challenge of trying something so foreign to her. She was also passionate about her discipline and Columbia offered her the best PhD program. My point is: she was ready.

The massive city experience will always be there if OP’s daughter wants it for grad school. For now, OP seems to want a school that is academically challenging but also nurturing and a little familiar. I’d go with Hamilton.

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OP, you‘ll keep us posted, will you? Rooting for your kid…

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I think it is down to Amherst vs Hamilton (she has not rejected Columbia yet).

From contacting programs and staff, it seems like Amherst academically will make sure she meets her goals (if she works hard) but feel kind of robotic, like they have a system and it works? Hamilton was way more friendly and welcoming but she might have to work harder and do more on her own to get her to her goals.

I think she feels like she would make friends easier at Hamilton but there is fear her goals might now be reached and she is not sure there is enough structure. Amherst she worries more about making friends or being accepted but feels like she will meet her goals. She actually thinks it is too rigid and structured (if you look at the science majors at Amhrest they have strict requirements and are not as “interesting” but you know if you take those classes you will be well prepared).

On the financial aid side, I personally feel 100% better about Hamilton’s offer. They were over and above nice. Since our high school does not help in any way in the financial aid process, I would have said Wellsley was the best (they really did help us early on, before she was admitted, so I guess I should have known she was getting in?) but the last few weeks Hamilton’s financial aid went above and beyond for us. Amhrest and Columbia have offers are incredible as well which we have no trouble affording, but Hamilton personally made me feel good that my child would be very well taken care of all 4 years. It was actually a very touching personal caring offer then the let me run the numbers and see what we can give you.

If there are any Hamilton or Amherst parents that would private message me that would be great. I think if I could talk to someone one on one, and give some details I do not won’t to post publically it might help.

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@ProfSD can you chime in about Hamilton?

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