@NROTCgrad, personally, I feel that the kid who is both highly intelligent and highly ambitious would do just as well at a state school as an Ivy/equivalent.
IMO, it is the kid who is highly intelligent but not highly ambitious who would benefit more from an Ivy. Firstly, the students around him at an Ivy would be ambitious, and he would learn what it takes to succeed (at a state school, that may not be the case, and he may learn more on how to slack off from many of the kids around him).
I didn’t imply it; I most definitely stated it outright.
It’s a generic question, Mom. The OP referenced no particular student for us to “know anything else” about.
That’s both relative and open to opinion, isn’t it?
@purpletitan - I agree that there are some circumstances that would make an Ivy League education not affordable or at least not ideal, but there are a LOT of people who are not in the circumstance that you mentioned who could afford it but don’t know enough to actually look into it; they see the big price tag and ASSUME that because it’s Harvard or Yale that it is out of their price range. The news perpetuates this myth too. Local news people like to make their quips after a news story, and that often includes incorrect information. Recently a local story about the price of attending Ohio State University finished, and one of the anchors said, “Can you imagine paying to go to Harvard?” Implies of course that it is expensive to go to Harvard…well, that depends on your income. Here in Central Ohio, you can do quite well on $100,000 a year, and if you make that for a family of 4, the cost to attend Harvard isn’t bad at all; quite favorable in fact when comparing against other colleges that don’t provide the need-based aid that Harvard does.
As an example, I just ran the Net Price Calculator for the University of Pennsylvania (Ivy League of course), using these parameters:
Income - $100,000
Family of 4 but only one in college out of the two kids
Modest home equity
No college savings and $2000 saved by student
All inclusive cost to attend UPenn is - $64,650
Total cost to attend for example family - $14,818
UPenn recommends in this case that the student provide $3,300 toward the bill leaving the parents to pay $11,518
None of this includes a loan for the student
Should be noted that to send a kid to college for $11,518 (that includes books, travel, and ‘personal expenses’ too) is equivalent to pretty much getting full tuition at most colleges and having to pay only for room and board. When you remove the 'personal expenses" of $1,848, we’re down to $9,670. That would be full tuition PLUS at most colleges in this country. Definitely affordable.
Affordable is in how an individual family’s real numbers impact that family. Full tuition is not the equivalent of full ride.
(That approx.$10,000 per yr difference is huge for many families.)
@stepay, I think it’s fair to assume that the type of parent who’s been on CC a while is also the type of parent who runs NPCs and has a firm grasp on how much an Ivy would cost their family.
@purpletitan - I do not assume that, and I’ve seen comments to the contrary from parents. Sometimes it takes awhile for someone posting here to learn all they need to learn.
For me, I never applied to Ivies and the like because I knew I had no chance of getting in. I’m a decent student, but I’m really not Ivy material. I also don’t want to ask my parents for more money than I need to. I will be going to an OOS state school on a full-ride scholarship, and I am very happy about that. The biggest cost I am probably facing is transportation costs to and from the college, and I hope I can get some internships or something later on and can help pay for that.
I say that the state school vs Ivy all depends on the cost and how much money you have to spend.
@mom2aphysicsgeek - Yep. $10,000 is a lot of money for some families and yet IS affordable and acceptable to pay for the Ivy League education for many other families. I wasn’t commenting though on paying $10,000 vs. full ride. I was commenting to the poster who said she didn’t have the money to pay for an Ivy League education, and I was trying to make sure that was really true. A little over a year ago, I would have thought I couldn’t afford an Ivy League education for my children, but turns out, even though we have pretty good household income for where we live, that I CAN afford it. Once you decide you can afford it, and if you get a full ride from another school, you need to decide how much you are WILLING to pay for that Ivy League education. $5,000 a year? $10,000 a year? $15,000 a year? Personally for me, (assuming one of my kids would prefer the Ivy League school over the flagship state school), at about $20,000 difference per year, that’s where I would probably opt for the cheaper version. And I know that this thread was full ride vs. paying for Ivy League, but the reality is that full ride is harder and harder to get these days, even for top students. Full tuition is way more common for the best students.
Much of this discussion is tethered, from my perspective, on two topics: how much is your family income and what are you looking for out of a university. Many people still do not realize, that in many instances, not all, that attending a top tier Ivy is probably more affordable than your own state university. By way of example, if your family income was say 80K, at a place like Yale (so Harvard would have the same guidelines) tuition, room & board, which top 63K, you would almost pay nothing out of pocket–and that in many instances would include RT airfare as well. Further, with 4 year graduation rates at 96-97 percent, and attrition at less than 3%, well, that also builds into the affordability factor.
Thus, if you happen to be in the range as mentioned-above ( and I have seen significant aid all the way up to 200k–remember there are no loans at the top Ivies, just grant aid) the more pressing question is what do you want out of the experience?
One significant exception to the affordability of many highly selective private schools is that students from divorced parents where the non-custodial parent is unwilling to pay or cooperate on financial aid forms will have trouble getting financial aid. Such students may have to limit their choices to schools which do not require non-custodial parent financial information (low list price, merit scholarships, FAFSA-only schools, other schools not requiring non-custodial parent financial information).
Graduation rates typically track admission selectivity. Of course a highly selective school will have a high graduation rate. But a top end student is likely to graduate in 8 semesters or fewer almost anywhere.
@boolaHI - Yep. In many parts of the country, $80,000 a year for a family is pretty good money, and the fact that you can go to an Ivy League school for next to nothing on that income is not known by most people. I know a guy (who has a kid in college, and HE doesn’t understand this) who was gushing about another college student we both know that she was going to an Ivy on a “full ride”. He, of course, thought that was due to merit, and he didn’t understand that it was based on her family’s income.
@ucbalumnus “One significant exception to the affordability of many highly selective private schools is that students from divorced parents where the non-custodial parent is unwilling to pay or cooperate on financial aid forms will have trouble getting financial aid. Such students may have to limit their choices to schools which do not require non-custodial parent financial information (low list price, merit scholarships, FAFSA-only schools, other schools not requiring non-custodial parent financial information).”
How is that any different than married parents who are unwilling to pay or fill out the forms? Or divorced couples where the primary custodian is unwilling to pay or fill out the forms? Why stigmatize divorced parents or NCPs (who, after litigation costs and paying for twice as many sets of household bills, are likely to be in much worse financial shape anyway)?
If your parents are not willing to pay or disclose their income, what difference does it make whether they are married or divorced? If they are not willing to pay, they are not willing to pay. If they won’t disclose, they won’t disclose.
Indeed, there is much bias, some of it with much legitimacy, towards Ivy schools. That said, for much of the lower middle class and below, it is probably the best situation, financially speaking, as options for college. Now, no doubt that assumes the mighty tall hill of getting your child accepted.
Actually that is not that accurate, for instance, the six year graduation rate is over 50% at CAL, see: http://www.dailycal.org/2013/02/10/uc-berkeley-leads-in-graduation-rates-default-rates-despite-national-report/ or in slightly more convoluted graph, see UVA…as it uses a 6 year yard-stick, see: http://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-virginia-main-campus/academic-life/graduation-and-retention/# or U of Michigan is at about 88%, see: http://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-michigan-ann-arbor/academic-life/graduation-and-retention/
You just described exactly why kids of divorced parents tend to have a harder time with college financial aid, even at the “super generous with financial aid” schools.
Berkeley graduation rates are better seen in the chart at http://opa.berkeley.edu/undergraduate-graduation-rates rather than the Daily Californian article referenced above.
Thanks, that is a much better graph. That said, in relation to the point above, with the top Ivy schools with 4 year graduation rates at 97% or so—it provides a fairly cogent reason why they actually make solid financial sense to some.
However, I would not be surprised if a cohort of students with Ivy League academic credentials going into a state university without breaking their budgets also had a 97% or so graduation rate.
D graduated from high school (high-ranked local public high school) in 2005. #1 in class.
Graduated from undergraduate (Ivy) in 2009. Graduated in 4 years.
Graduated from medical school (state flagship) in 2013. Graduated in 4 years.
Residency.
Offered full ride from state flagship.
Ivy covered part of cost, small loan amount, we covered balance. We are in no way “rich.”
State flagship - 28,000
Ivy attended - 5,500
That is what made the difference - smaller school, smaller class sizes, more opportunity for personal attention. Also much better living situation at Ivy.
D took advantage of many opportunities offered by the Ivy.
It’s a very personal decision. Do what feels right to you and your student.