<p>Ok, putting bias aside, Davidson seems to be a solid contender for a Southern Ivy title holder (along with the other usuals; Duke, Rice, Vandy, Emory, W&L, perhaps WF, etc). The Furman candidate is not as clear. What in your opinion would it take for FU to be considered in this group?</p>
<p>A basketball team as good as Davidson's.</p>
<p>Better name recognition outside the southeast. Many people in the midwest are familiar with the schools you named ... but not Furman. Come to think of it, "no one" knows Davidson, either (other than as an underdog at NCAA playoff betting time!). I think it's a good FOOTBALL team that does it :)!</p>
<p>W&L and Davidson do a better job with geographic diversity. The other southern LACs are more regional.</p>
<p>Furman needs to have a lower acceptance rate and tougher admissions process to be considered a "Southern Ivy".</p>
<p>Furman is, um 37th, among lac's, a far cry from anything approaching Davidson, which is 10th, or Washington and Lee at 15th, both colleges.</p>
<p>All Ivies are universities, and the lowest ranked one is Brown, still in top 15. </p>
<p>In any event, the notion of "southern Ivies" is misplaced. The Ivy League is an athletic conference, pure and simple. Duke and Rice are in their own university conferences and Davidson and W & L are in their own college conferences. Although one might argue about everything being competitive with the Ivies except basketball at Duke and baseball at Rice, the athletics are as different from Ivies at Duke and Rice as they are from Davidson and W & L. Furman is far, far away from that group and, like the two colleges, is not at all the same kind of school.</p>
<p>redcrimblue, thanks. We did not state that Furman is a southern Ivy. The question was what would it take for FU to be considered SI. Based on USNWR 2008 rankings, the best southern LACS are 1) Davidson 2) WL then 3) FU. You say that #3 is not in the same league as #1 and #2. Why?</p>
<p>Dartmouth College is not a university.</p>
<p>Dartmouth has a med school and a business school, both of which (obviously) offer postgrad degees, so it is more than a college, though I am not sure what the terminology is on its official Web site. Similarly, Columbia is a university; Columbia College and Barnard are colleges within the university. Same with Harvard.</p>
<p>Dartmouth is a university and offers Ph.D.'s. Barnard keeps its admissions and statistics separately and treats itself as a separate college with its own degrees. If its admissions were included (and if Columbia's engineering school were included), Columbia (itself co-ed) would fall to low teens in USNWR rankings. There are no separate admissions or statistics for Radcliffe, it is all integrated and everyone receives a Harvard degree.</p>
<p>I think the gap between top 15 and 37th is way too large, and won't be overcome. Quality of students and academic standards and offerings keep Furman in that mid-rank with a score of small midwestern schools that are also little known. Main issue is whole concept of "southern Ivy." It's like real estate agents who nolens volens expand nomenclature of certain prestigious areas into ancillary surroundings of town to boost the prices. Either you are there or you are not. Again, it's a sports conference. Misappropriation of trade name for "southern ivy" or "public ivy" with everyone hustling to slot their small town or regional favorite into this penumbraic category seems meretricious, mendacious and misplaced.</p>
<p>Same old tired conversation. Rankings are far less important than what the particular college has to offer the individual student. If Davidson doesn't appeal to a student for whatever reason, then another school ... regardless of how many slots down the ranking scale it may be ... is the better school for that student. There are people who adamantly defend rankings as being more important in the scheme of things than they really are. As far as what it would take to move a school like Furman up in rankings, who cares? The important thing is for Furman & other schools to make themselves the best school they can be in ways that are important for that school & its constituents. Some will like what the school is, others won't. That's why there are so many schools. There is no "best," no matter how much some insist there is.</p>
<p>The notion that Furman could be considered a Southern Ivy is laughable. I think your mistake is looking at only liberal arts colleges, when in fact the Ivys are major research powerhouses. The term Ivy league refers to sports, but also has become linked to the notion of excellence, the Ivys would be ranked in the top 37 of all colleges and uninversities, Furman is just 37th for liberal arts colleges. Furman would have a better chance of making the NCAA tournament if they were in the Ivy league though :) .</p>
<p>orangelights, so it's not possible because FU is not a major research powerhouse? How to you explain "Furman has one of the best undergraduate research programs in the country and has been ranked no.4 in U.S. News Best Undergraduate Research Programs along with MIT, Stanford and Michigan"?</p>
<p>Look I'm all for undergraduate research but again it is what it is, the minor leagues of research, not the best of the best. Its great that Furman students learn how to do research and if you are looking at Furman or Davidson as potential schools then realize that they do a good job with this. If you are wondering why Furman doesn't get the international recognition of the Ivy league schools, ask yourself: is Furman one of the institutions that contributes on a regular basis to cutting edge theory, and does Furman deserve credit for supporting the scholars that produced the most influential ideas of the 20th century? This is what you are comparing yourself to and I'm sorry it doesn't hold. I'm not even sure Davidson would want to be considered a southern Ivy. Davidson is speacial because of what it is not because of any category it can be lumped into. But if Furman belonging to some category of schools will make you happy then fine, believe it.</p>
<p>If rankings are your main thing, pick Davidson. However, if a happy, well-rounded college experience that includes real football, school spirit, fantastic music opportunities, and a slightly more laid back, more sociable group of students, pick Furman. I know several families who have had kids at both Furman and Davidson. The Furman kids are HANDS DOWN HAPPIER with their experience. Furman is a bit bigger, and it has more diversity of temperaments. A down side of extremely competitive admissions is that there are often too many kids with the SAME INTENSE DRIVEN personality. Davidson kids tend to be great kids, but they are rather serious and ernest, as a whole. The teaching is GREAT at both. Some majors are better at Davidson; some are better at Furman. For instance, the psychology professors at Davidson highlight and quote the psychology work being done at Furman. The music department at Furman is also more outstanding (listed in Fiske as one of the top ones in the country.)</p>
<p>Some other differences:</p>
<p>Davidson has brutal grade deflation that keeps students stressed and depressed. </p>
<p>Davidson has many more wealthy kids, more New England boarding school types. As a result, Davidson students are also a bit faster socially. </p>
<p>There is a lot more heavy drinking at Davidson, and most of it happens on campus. Furman has a more conservative student body socially and perhaps politically. Drinking takes place off campus (which creates some dangers for transportation.) For some, Furman may be frustratingly wholesome. For others, the idea that drinking is truly optional to the college experience may be a relief.</p>
<p>Davidson is a smaller campus – not quite as beautiful, but it has a cute little town within a two-minute walk that includes restaurants, banks, and drug stores. Furman is more difficult without a car (no drug store or restaurants within walking distance.) Downtown Greenville is charming and sophisticated, but it is 15 minutes away by car. </p>
<p>Both schools have very high med school, law school, and PhD acceptance rates. Furman has more students that go on to graduate school. </p>
<p>ANOTHER HUGE PLUS WITH FURMAN: If you have the stats to get in to Davidson, you’ll probably get a half tuition merit scholarship at Furman. In this economy, money matters! Furman has more than double the number of merit finalists as Davidson, so you are not giving up smart cohorts either.</p>
<p>Bottom line, it is not rankings that will satisfy you in the long run. And the other posters are right – most people have never heard of either school. That is the case with liberal arts colleges as a whole. Visit both, talk to students, and see where you feel comfortable.</p>
<p>my oldest son is a Davidson alumnus(now a physician), my younger son is a Furman junior(on his way to becoming a lawyer), both are extremely happy with their college choice and experience. I have a foot in both camps, and you canot go wrong with either.</p>
<p>Humphrey and Hubbellsdad,</p>
<p>It sounds like you know boths schools well. Davidson is currently on my son’s list but we are trying to find another safety. Pitt is probably that safety but I keep looking at Furman. We met with a college counselor who wasn’t too impressed with Furman. She actually preferred St. Olaf but my son has decided that’s not for him.</p>
<p>A quick run down: He’s a Christian, a person of color (1/2 Puerto Rican), from So. Cal, has taken many math and physics college courses and would need strong depth or graduate level in these departments (will probably major in math), wants a strong music department with access to a symphony and chamber music (he’s a longtime violinist that does classical, rock, and fiddle and might want to minor in music and is self taught on other instruments), has very strong stats (2320 SAT I, 800, 800, 730 on SAT II and will take one more; 5,5,5,5,4 on AP exams and will take 3 more; has some national awards/rankings in chess and physics), and he plays baseball, though not on a high enough level to be recruited. He is conservative, loves to have fun, is very extroverted, does not want to “party”, wants a smaller school but loves what a large city can offer.</p>
<p>We will need a lot of aid (our EFC is somewhere between 10-11K).</p>
<p>He’s never been to the south and he’s always been in very diverse communities. He’s intense but laid back, if that’s possible, has a quick wit, and loves humorous things but is also serious about his faith and would love to continue to participate in church worship.</p>
<p>Based on the above, would both schools be an equally good fit? I know Davidson is much more selective but Furman has great math scholarships.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>Remember that Davidson gives merit scholarships to strong candidates, and it has a very strong diversity initiative. Your son may well be able to get the best of both worlds–the excellence and luster of a Davidson education with substantial FA. I take issue with some of the implied criticisms of Davidson in post 16, but perceptions differ. I don’t know Furman but I do know Davidson quite well as a parent and it sounds as though it might be a wonderful fit for your son. (Incidentally, Davidson does not have formal minors but certainly if you enough courses in a given field it will amount to a de facto minor.)</p>
<p>You can PM me if you like about Furman…my alma mater. My classmates have had huge careers post Furman with a lot of success and have attended Yale, Duke, Harvard, UVA, Northwestern, Stanford etc. That said, I am also a big fan of Davidson, where one of my sons was a finalist for merit --but went elsewhere. Davidsonians are a strong community of thoughtful people and future adults. Same can be said for Furman although it is easier to be admitted to Furman. Both schools are quite rigorous if you want to excel. Furman is much larger than Davidson and perhaps less claustrophic in that one regard. However, Davidson students are across the board quite strong academically and many go abroad for academics and for service. My Duke son went abroad with Davidson students and was really impressed by them.</p>
<p>Furman and Davidson both highly value recruiting diversity combined with high stats and talent like your son’s talent. Furman has a much stronger corridor into fine graduate schools than people recognize with many students going for successful runs at grad schools and merit money at stage two in professional colleges.</p>
<p>Both Furman and Davidson attract people of high character and both colleges are warm and wonderful communities re close support from faculty members who get strongly behind their grads as they make their next moves to professional schools.</p>
<p>Furman has a very strong music school with professors with big grad school links. New recruit had a high position at Oberlin’s Conservatory but as a Furman grad wanted to return to complete his career. Also the conductor of the Boston Pops was two years behind me in school. My own Furman roommate is a conductor and singer via Northwestern and Columbia. Furman also has strong links with the Brevard Music Festival and is situated close to the beautiful corridor near Brevard NC.</p>
<p>I suggest that your son do the smart thing and pursue merit offers at both Furman and Davidson. He is very competitive. It would be nice if his high school selected him as their Davidson Belk Scholar nominee. He should meet with his guidance counselor and submit a request for this designation.</p>
<p>At many schools in the south, the Belk Nomination requires being selected in house first as many students want this designation in high schools that know a lot about the value of a Davidson education. That said, Davidson has other merit offers and makes good non Belk merit offers to students not in the Belk pipeline. Davidson has the larger funding base for financial need scholarships without loans so do not skip applying to Davidson no matter what. Their package will likely be stronger than Furman’s if merit aide is not considered.</p>
<p>Furman and Davidson have finalist Scholar Weekends. If your son makes it to that round, you don’t have to fret about comparing these schools now. You can make your own gut decisions in March and April which is the right time to prioritize. Now is all about getting accepted and getting in line for consideration for merit dollars. </p>
<p>The competition for merit offerings is stiff. Many students apply to six or seven colleges and then go where they make these cuts for further consideration. </p>
<p>Furman has a glamourous rather new Science building named for their Nobel prize winner. Chemistry is a stellar department at Furman. I can’t speak to math or physics but Furman’s Chem dept is well recognized. Furman wants to attract students from all over the USA. Davidson is already successfully national in its footprint. </p>
<p>Both schools are places that conservative students who are active in their religious lives feel comfortable but both schools have a mixed student body in regards to political party and affiliations. </p>
<p>Your son will have multiple opportunities. I commend you for seeking out communities like Furman and Davidson where access to professors is excellent and where ethical students tend to self select. Emotional fit matters a lot. Your son will do well in classrooms anywhere. Good luck and enjoy these months with your son.</p>