<p>it's an unfortunate thing that we need affirmative action. any of you from the south? any of you know employers (especially those of banking institutions) in the south? no? well then you don't know why we need affirmative action. no, it isn't colorblind, but neither are these people.</p>
<p>I am white, and against affirmative action the way we have it now. Now we have unprepared people getting put into high colleges over well-prepared white people.</p>
<p>Its reverse discrimination. Its not the fault of some white kid that black people were enslaved. We should not shatter their dreams because of the racism of other people. I think I can safely say with the backing of several brilliant black people I've discussed this issue with that the culture of black people in America is what causes their lack of preparation, not their history in racism. I think that instead of simply giving them acceptances to colleges, colleges should fund school programs for blacks, to get them up to snuff before they apply. Then, the black people get in because they deserved it, not because of their parents.</p>
<p>o good ppl have responded =) this shud b fun...anywayz lemme start by referring to pc runners comment, um nah im not kidding you...so now that i got that outta way, listen up america, we are NOT an ideal nation u got that? THIS IS REALITY, and in reality RACISM, SEXISM, POVERTY, ADVERSITY, UNJUSTICE is prevalent THROUGHOUT our country, whether it be in the suburbs of new jersey, the urban society of the cities, or the rural aspects of the west, its everywhere....the rational behind affirmative action is to make a FAIR PLAYING GROUND, i am saying that in reality you HAVE to make adjustments, whether you like it or not, yes of course in an ideal utopian society i would O so much love that there is no discrimination between whether ur black and or white as the resulting factor of ur admittance into college....BUT THATS NOT HOW IT GOES, look why do we have political corectness hmm? why because you have to SHOW that you can be correct before one can be colloquial with lang etc, we as nation espicially in colleges must show more diversity, we have to encourage minorities to advance their oppurtunities, you cant just make everything equal when they aren't equal to begin with, it's a gradual process, i mean o hell i'll say it bluntly that if it were an ideal society in america asians would TAKE OVER ALL OF THE UNIVERSITIES, but its quite conspicuous that that is NOT the case....there's a reason for everything guys, factors like family income, under represented minority, etc etc, whether u like or not they are consequential factors, i mean once you break affirmative action your crossing lines of sports scholarships, educational scholarships, etc etc, i mean one can say why the hell did that kid who got a 1160 on his sat and is goin to princeton cuz he's a freakin kick a*s football player, why cuz he's going to provide entertainment for the avg american, thats why. everything is logical, look im not trying to say anybody is right or wrong, i'm just saying that some form of the concept behind affirmative action will always be a part of your lives in some way or another...hopefully this enlightens you all somewhat, and quickly referring to medittereans post, everything you said is right on the dot when ur talking about how society shud b ran, but bro...what matters is how IT IS BEING RUN, and how you move on from there..</p>
<p>o one more thing...
"Its not the fault of some white kid that black people were enslaved. " </p>
<p>Tj, after reading that i am quite dissappointed the future of our country lies in the hands of individuals like you...leave the ignorance out of the forumns please...</p>
<p>Thank you, xindianx. It's ridiculous how disillusioned conservatives have become nowadays. Apparently, the best situation would be for us to have no taxes?? Yeah, in a society where the word corruption didnt exist. The best situation would be for us to have no affirmative action? Same deal, xindianx stated it perfectly, we are not in utopia. Idealism is the sore on the side of progressive America, get your heads out of the clouds people, welcome to the real world.</p>
<p>to xindianx-
the way to alleviate racism in our society is not to turn it back against white people, that just makes it worse . . . we need to strive for true equality and then punish those who don't
about your athletic comment- the reason the athletes get these scholarships is because they are the absolute best at what they do, just like the best of the best academically get scholarships, too
a person should not get accepted to college just because he/she is the absolute best at being an URM</p>
<p>"o good ppl have responded =) this shud b fun.."</p>
<p>"leave the ignorance out of the forumns please..."</p>
<p>Ok, lets. Lets see if you can. And lets try and keep flame out of it too.</p>
<p>Yea, Asians would- except for the fact that they wouldnt. They work incredibly hard, and they deserve it, and so I'm happy for them to 'take over' our universities. That way, we'd have people who really deserve to be there, instead of pumping them full of people who dont.</p>
<p>"the rational behind affirmative action is to make a FAIR PLAYING GROUND"- by making the admittions process unfair? By rejecting people who have worked harder and deserve it more, and admitting somebody because of their skin color? Excuse me, but thats like saying, "Racism sucks. Unless it happens to work for us. In which case, its fair." </p>
<p>Affirmative action has nothing to do with sports scholarships. I'm happy to have sports players get into great colleges. They have something tangible to offer the school. But Affirmative action fills the school with people who do add a different look at life, but also add a lower common denominator to a school that claims to be only for the best. What affirmative action gives the school is a nice figure for the colleges to print on their literature.</p>
<p>I absolutely agree that we should funnel huge amounts of money into educational opportunities for ethnic groups, but those opportunites should come before college, preparing them for it. It should give them the fundamental basis that we all need, so that they can get into top-flight colleges because they really acheived something, not because they have a different skin color.</p>
<p>"the rational behind affirmative action is to make a FAIR PLAYING GROUND"?
Ah yes, make it fairer by giving certain people an edge. That makes sense.</p>
<p>"asians would TAKE OVER ALL OF THE UNIVERSITIES"
So what? If they deserve it, so be it. Same for any other group. I am not Asian.</p>
<p>What would make sense to me is an AA based on income. Colleges do not do that because:
A:It looks nicer, IE more PC, if you got 10% rich minorities then a homogenous mass of white/asian people no matter the background.
B: If a college can get someone to pay full tuition, and "diversify" the campus, then why not? After all, a rich student is more likely to donate in the future. Colleges try to achieve this scenario: good students enrolled begets higher college rank. Higher college rank begets better students. better students beget better professors. Better professors beget more prestige which begets more donations and better students.</p>
<p>I could agree with AA based on income because I look at my own situation. I am not poor but I know that if I did not have the money I did, my options would be restricted to a greater degree. Not just in terms of paying for tuition, but other things like preparation books.</p>
<p>Going to a school like say Harvard means you are way above everyone else. If AA policies lead to the admission of relatively sub par students, then AA is cheapening the institution.
Also, URMs admitted by AA sometimes fail to keep up with the rigor of their classes. There was a study on this very subject a couple months ago, about blacks in law schools. Blacks who went to schools without AA, or were not admitted as a result of AA, had better grades and thus a higher chance to pass the BAR.</p>
<p>lol, nice way to skew my point....but i can deal with that, listen, no one is turning is back on "white ppl," alright? let's get that straight...lol..its not like theres a group of brown, black, yellow, and tanned ppl up there in a superior college admissions office that are saying..."we must make this process unfair for white ppl" with some evil laugh...gimme a break man. So what im trying to say is someone like me, stereotypical indian applying to MIT for example, i have a MUCH lower chance then maybe some white guy applying, why? because MIT is full of asians, so cal tech, its not like this aa deal wat made to pay back the whites..anywayz next, of course we need to strive for equality, but once you again you cannot force equality when theres isn't equality, do u understand what im saying? like, say u have a black person and a white person, both making totally diff amounts of pay, one is rich, one is poor, bla bla bla, u cant just say, o ok u guys are equal...its not how it works, u have integrate, learn from each other, gradually let factors change, the pieces of the puzzle will fit together by themselves, here ill give u a clear example, about ten years ago this private school near me had 98% whites, and anytime a minority would apply, he/she would have a higher chance of getting in, and yes ppl didnt like it because the short term consequence was obvious, but oh man nowdays that same school is SO diverse, i mean the sports, the cultural aspects of it, the school is flourishing in colors culturally, physically, and intuitively. Hey its a superimposed example, but this is the type of thinking that goes along with college affirmative action. Now about the athletics, obviously the athletes get scholarships cuz they are the best, who said they arent? all i said is that its another factor...as for ur last skewed comment, let me tell you very starkly...ill go in order...diversity is essential, i assume u agree, now say there is a black student in a "ghetto" town, he has ambitions, he finally makes it up to apply to a top college, hes like the onli one in his school, he had to go through so much **** etc etc...that kid SHOULD GET HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO GET IN TO COLLEGE, he went through twice as much **** as you may have, and he wants to go to the same place you want to, now look i know allllll the ppl are gonna come with comments like, well black ppl arent the only ones bla bla bla, (i kno from experience in debates, tons of ppl came back with that arguement, and i said the following) DUDE THIS IS GENERALLY SPEAKING, THE MAJORITY OF THE PPL THAT ARE OPPRESSED ARE MINORITIES, ITS OBVIOUS, i mean my dad came to america with 20 bucks in his pocket and i was born 2 months later, immigrants, minorities, african americans, its something that as a general community they are trying to integrate them into society in the most beneficial way possible, once it is more equal, than you impose "strive for true equality" and make college decisions more ideal, but its not how it is RIGHT NOW, once again whether anyone likes it or not we are in reality, not some idealist world..</p>
<p>haha i love how i seem to be the only one on xindianx's side, and yet im a white male American who's family has been in this country since 1685.</p>
<p>yeah im on his side too and im as aristo-meritocrat they come on the upper east side. like that word aristomeritocrat? cuz i do!!</p>
<p>asherm, INCOME IS USUALLY THE ASPECT THAT CORRELATES WITH ONE BEING A MINORITY, so ur arguement is just proving my point, and when i say FAIL PLAYING GROUND, if you have one person under represented, u wud want to make that person UN - under represented, and REALISTICALLY THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN DO THAT IS AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, THATS WHY ITS INSTITUTED, o well maybe michigan state bluntly said they use it because they are being realistic and are unafraid to say it how it is, they dun want the choco coverup like other universities make aa, aa is elusive in many aspects of college admissions in all colleges, like i said it may not be seen or heard of so outwardly, but its there trust me, not one college in america wants to have 99% whites/browns/blacks, you don't have the OPINIONS that make the "world" go round, why do you think we have two political parties, i mean if we were in a ideal world like you all describe and we shud strive toward equality then u all shud b under one party, and u agree right away, thats not how it is, its not suppose to be 99% white, asian, w.e, its not suppose to be 99% democrat, bla bla, its suppose to be varied, multifarious, thats why it's used, because damn man everyone is brilliant in their own sense, i swear every child born, the second they are born they are on the same ground as every other child born (not counting any mentally disabled children) but i mean generally, they are, they all have potential man, i wish ppl cuz realize that, but its how they live their childhood, what decisions they make and what decisions their parents make, whether they were oppressed, bla bla bla, its reality man, and we refer to my asian comment as "if they deserve it so be it" well, IT HASNT "been it", if it "were it" then u wud seen all asians...but thats not the case cuz we MUST have diversity, then and only then will we be able to fathom our fellow humans and decrease racism in the long term, people must integrate and gradually equality will be seen, w.e.b duboius wanted africans to have equality right away, no matter what happened, in the late 1800s he was like yo, right now our im gonna start a revolt, but man thats not how it works, instead we had realistic ppl like booker t washington who said id very calmly, listen if blacks want that political and equal independence they must get it economically first, this is all preety much the same concept my friend</p>
<p>here's logic for you: we can't force diversity when there isn't diversity</p>
<p>wth are you talking about lol? your statement has totally left me perplexed, what you are saying is just screw it pretty much, you just want the easy way out and give up on the whole deal, hey man if u think ur some hotshot then u think of a plan, go ahead, i bet u that in the end itll all come out the same, its not like making diversity is like running 600 miles, trust me its not hard lol, u got this brown kid, and this white kid, put them in the same history class and ull have more conversation, more fun, more opinions will be thrown around, boom theres ur diversity, its not rocket science, i mean why do you think most colleges have an approximately 50% ratio between guys and girls? ever thought about the obvious??? MAYBE BECAUSE IT WUD BE KINDA GAY TO HAVE 99% GUYS (hah get it...lol comic relief gotta love it)...anywayz society is moving toward diversity in america, whether conversatives, or w.e like or not, its gotta happen in order to keep our country strong and in full throttle</p>
<p>filmxoxo, aristo-meritocrat huh? i cant stop laughing sorry lol, god i love u guys, this is like ap history class haha</p>
<p>well here's the essence of your plan (i'm not saying this is done, i'm just saying its the equivalent of what is being done)<br>
the white kid turns in all his homework and gets an A on every test, meanwhile the brown kid turns in most of his work and gets B's on most tests
at the end of the semester the teacher gives them both the same grade</p>
<p>also, on a side note, why not promote diversity in athletics- you know, give the white wide receiver a 10-yard head start over the black one?</p>
<p>There is so much resentment and jealousy towards minorities on college campuses stemming from AA in admissions. If you were a black/hispanic/native american, how would you feel if people behind your back whispered, "Oh...he/she didn't get in on his/own merits, he/she ONLY got in because of AA"? or "My sister had MUCH better stats than that black guy, but she didn't get in--how unfair!" If I were an under-represented minority, I would want an HONEST assessment of my academic/extra-curricular acheivements by the admissions counselors. It would feel so insulting and degrading to have the admissions criteria "softened" for me just because of my color. Because of these lowered standards, young minorities will say "oh...I don't really have to work so hard in h.s. because the bar will lowered for me!" What kind of message are we sending to young people of colour? </p>
<p>To people who defend AA--your hearts are in the right place, but this is NOT the way to remedy discrimintion and disparities in the US educational system.</p>
<p>ok maverick, how bout we try this, since you want to persist, go ahead and give me a plan that'll ultimately prove to be better than what affirmative action supports...by the way, i think you all have SEVERLY MISUNDERSTOOD AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, it's NOT like a person with a 990 is going to harvard cuz he or she is black, alright??? lol, the real person has shown his or her ability to have the potential to succeed, she is ambitious, and wants a shot that no one her her family has got, this furthermore promites diversity and she has an increased CHANCE of getting accepted, all affirmative action means is that you have a better shot because realistically there isnt enough diversity in college campuses, and in order to promote it affirmative action is/was the best way to move about...i'm not trying to cheat anyone out of anything, please understand that, it's just how society runs, if you really can think of something better, go ahead and talk, but i'm sure if those ph d professionals that came up with this idea and found it to be the best that it has been implented by all colleges in the u.s, its most likely the most efficient and realistic way...and as for elbereth's comment, dun say **** about what is or isn't degrading and humiliating, cuz u simple DUN KNO, no one asked to be left out of the group cuz they were a minority, no one asked to have less money cuz their parents were immigrants who couldnt afford stuff, no one asked to have the many disadvantages minorities to have, but since it is there a solution must be found, and it was found in aa, and if u (elbereth) also dun think aa is not the way to remedy discrimition and disparities, i would love to hear your good ol plan, come on, give me something the world hasn't already heard of and shut down because it wasn't good enough to promote diversity...please go ahead</p>
<p>AA should be based on economic status, not race People of ALL races who are disadvantaged economically have had to work a hell of a lot harder than someone like me to get into college. I've grown up in a stable household, live in a low-crime suburban neighborhood, and both of my parents and have professional degrees. I've never been REQUIRED to work to support my family--I only hold a job at the public library because I enjoy it and want work experience. I go to an excellent public school (top 5 in my state); each year no less than a dozen graduates go to Penn. I have had a myriad of resources to take advantage of. My parents have always instilled a love of learning in me and read to me when I was little. </p>
<p>Young people from disadvantaged backgrounds, on the other hand, have not had these luxuries. They probably had to work multiple jobs throughout highschool, dealt with crime/gangs, and went to failing public schools in urban centers (i.e. West Philadelphia High School). This is an environment NOT conducive to learning! Because of these hardships, they have less time to devote to schoolwork, and could not afford pricey SAT prep tutors/courses/resources.</p>
<p>In spring break '03 my brother went to an accepted students open house at Yale. He met a remarkable Hispanic boy who was the first in his family to attend college, had a near-perfect GPA, and was involved in leadership activities in his community. OK, so he had an SAT score in the mid-1100's, but he definetely deserved to get into Yale because he went through so many struggles.</p>
<p>But it is absolutely unfair that minorities who happen to be wealthy and have connections have the upper hand in admissions. Poorer whites and asians definetely have worked much harder than them, but have a lower chance of admission b/c whites and asians are overrepresented at colleges. Admissions should be based on merit and hard work, not the colour of one's skin. And since many minorities (esp. in urban areas) happen to be disadvantages economically, this policy will many of them benefit them anyway.</p>
<p>the overall summary of my arguement is simply stated...in order for america to flourish in today's world, diversity in colleges must increase, so far affirmative action is what the general public and college admissions officers (mite i say they are all of diff. races) have agreed upon, i would absolutely love it if everyone got into college fairly and no one was picked upon their race, but my friends, once again and again, this is not john lennon's world, i really do wish it did work, but it doesn't ok? There's a book, The Giver, pretty good book, kinda describes wat the hell wud happen if u tried to make society idealistic, it just doesn't work.</p>
<p>ps...i totally think its unfair how you all are accusing ME of being racist, i do want everyone to have a fair chance, but im also the first one to not whine about it and really take it how it is, in the long term we need aa right now and it will be a component in college admissions...guys our own supreme justices couldn't say a goddamn thing, the whole case was pretty much "closed" in terms of the gov. doing anything..why u mite ask? because they also know we live in the real world.</p>
<p>ok elberth, now go ahead and tell me how ur ecomomic plan is gonna promite diversity..cuz i sure as hell didn't read one line stating something that will replace aa in terms of what it is meant for..</p>